Current Events > If anything, ND should've be commended for having the balls to (TLOU2 spoiler)

(+) Yeah! (+)

kill Joel tbh.

...tag

Good writing and a well done character death is never complained about, shitty writing and stupid character deaths are used as examples to not follow.

how was it a stupid character death, or an example of shitty writing, when it was well justified (all the pieces being in the right place) in the context of the story?

No idea why g*mers love Joel so much

I think most people have already said why it was shitty writing and how TLOU 2 was a poor sequel.

there's nothing to suggest that it's "most people", and there are many who have said the opposite.

but ignoring the rest of the story, how was Joel's death an example of "shitty writing and stupid character deaths"?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/8/6/AAZroiAAAk9a.jpg

that's neither good nor bad, and relies on the execution, which worked for some and didn't work for others.

besides revenge, empathy was one of the game's major themes, and even if you didn't like Abby, even with all the time you spent playing as her, you at least understood her motivations and the kind of person she was.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


99% of the reviews on meta are review bombs by people who have never played it.

I don't think Metacritic's user reviews are a good measure of fan reception.

it was already review bombed with thousands of reviews as soon as the game came out, which no one could have beaten by then, and if you look at a bunch of the negative reviews, you see stuff about SJWs, wokeness, politics, LGBTQ+ hate, etc. I'm not saying that none of them are legitimate, but that it's just not a good measure, as no one has to be accountable for the reviews they've left (like, they don't even need to have played the game).

iirc, it used to be a lot lower, too, before some positive reviews started coming in (I wouldn't be surprised if some were the opposite of review bombing).

I have no problem with killing Joel as a concept, I think the execution was shit.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I understand the rage, and I felt it too, but that was the point.

you were supposed to hate Abby as both the player and Ellie, and when you started playing as Abby, be like, "I've got to play as this -----!?"

and whether that hate, outrage stayed throughout the game, is up to the player, but we should have gotten some understanding about her from it.

but just because the story is structured in a way that we might not like, it doesn't mean that it's poorly written, or anything like that.

Empathy is reserved for well written characters you oppose. Look at Darth Vader for one of the best examples of this, and in most games now he is a terrifying presence but you still understand his motivations and what lead him to be in the suit.

Another good example is Haytham Kenway from AC 3 and AC Rogue who people argue on if he is actually a bad guy. Shay from AC Rogue really flips the script for the AC series and most like the game for being a on the other side.

Ull fron Far Cry Primal is a really good example as you have plenty of reason to hate him but when you find out why his group is the way they are it becomes tragic.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

but has this review bombing been effective at all?

TLoU2 has been successful by all metrics - reviewed really well, sold really well, has won the most game awards, has won the most player voted awards.

that's why when people say that "most people" didn't like the game, I have to ask but which measure?

I don't disagree with it, but I think it happens too early. I would've preferred that Abby be more-established.

That being said, I also still believe that the Joel you play as in the first game would've never let himself get stuck in a chalet with a bunch of total strangers.

TLOU2 could have made Abby likeable if they had actually gone about it the right way. Instead of playing as her AFTER she kills Joel it would have been smarter to go the AC 3 route.

In AC 3 you play as Haytham first and the reveal of what he is was a big shock but a good one since you saw him do some good then the wham moment happens.

TLOU 2 should have had us play as Abby maybe as a child first to show her interact with her dad, then have her as an adult doing the survival stuff, meet her friends, and her searching for someone. Then have the big reveal of Abby killing Joel and having the reveal be she was after Joel due to her father being killed by him. That way we establish who she is, her friends, and you see her side without tainted glasses making for a real message of the cycle of revenge as Ellie kills off Abbys friends who we already got to know earlier.

AC Rogue does something like this as well and the game is much better executed the TLOU 2. You get to know the people you end up hunting and how poor communication lead to everything going to hell. AC 3, 4 and Rogue are a great trilogy for the past story and connect very well.

SSJGrimReaper posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/8/6/AAZroiAAAk9a.jpg

I remember when a fuller pic was posted and it stayed up for days lol

as far as the other characters Ellie canonically killed (in cutscenes), even if she might have put them in those situations, you could at least argue that she killed them to protect herself.

with the exception of Nora, who she tortured to death.

with the others, it's believable that killing them took little toll over her, since she was protecting herself to some degree, and it was a warzone, and she had killed before, but killing Nora and Mel (the pregnant woman) totally fucked with her, and she was even about to give up going after Abby until Abby ambushed them in the theater.

as for letting Abby go at the end, she saw that Abby was a husk of her former self and no longer a threat, and that Lev loved and depended on her. if she killed Abby, then Lev would have either died or had come back later on to potentially kill her and/or her loved ones.

at post 20 (sorry, I write slow on my phone)

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

*snip*

regardless of how well-written you find her character to be, do you not at least know why Abby did what she did?

Bio1590 posted...

That being said, I also still believe that the Joel you play as in the first game would've never let himself get stuck in a chalet with a bunch of total strangers.

in the first game, he goes off with Henry and Sam, after he and Henry initially fight, and even allows himself to sleep around them.

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

I don't think the point was to make Abby likeable, since even one of her friends (Mel) calls her a piece of shit.

we were all supposed to initially dislike/hate Abby.

@g0ldie

The point is the way TLOU 2 goes no one cared about Abbys reasons nor do they give a shit about the people she is with due to how and when they want you to get to know her.

I gave a way to make the character compelling but as it is TLOU 2 has a very poorly done narrative to the point most people just hate you cant kill Abby.

Naughty Dog killed my interest in owning a PlayStation 5 anyway.

what's this "no one" and "most people" business, again, and how do you quantify that?

whether you found her story compelling, or not, is subjective, but the way the story was told was very deliberate.

would it have been better if ND took a direction like you suggested? who knows, it would depend on the execution, but it doesn't seem likely they wanted us to like or even care about Abby until we got her story.

edit: at post 27; I'm a slow writer.

g0ldie posted...

I understand the rage, and I felt it too, but that was the point.

you were supposed to hate Abby as both the player and Ellie, and when you started playing as Abby, be like, "I've got to play as this -----!?"

and whether that hate, outrage stayed throughout the game, is up to the player, but we should have gotten some understanding about her from it.

but just because the story is structured in a way that we might not like, it doesn't mean that it's poorly written, or anything like that.

I think you have to realize that there's nothing forcing the player to continue playing the game after an event like that. I know I had a similar moment with MGS2 wondering when the hell it's going to let me play as Snake again. I wound up dropping the game (and the series) once I realized it wasn't going to happen.

The whole cycle of revenge story failed to resonate with people because of how they told the narrative. No one gave a shit, the message failed, and people understandably called the game garbage.

TLOU 2 could have been a great game and not just a game pandered to which is what all the awards it got are, pandering.

Telling a story the right way conveys a strong message, telling it a shitty way with terrible writing gets you a TLOU 2.

FuriousFox posted...

I think you have to realize that there's nothing forcing the player to continue playing the game after an event like that. I know I had a similar moment with MGS2 wondering when the hell it's going to let me play as Snake again. I wound up dropping the game (and the series) once I realized it wasn't going to happen.

This was my biggest gripe with it. I really hate when games make me switch characters at take away all of the items and weapons I just spend time accumulating, without knowing how long I was going to be stuck with it.

FuriousFox posted...

I think you have to realize that there's nothing forcing the player to continue playing the game after an event like that. I know I had a similar moment with MGS2 wondering when the hell it's going to let me play as Snake again. I wound up dropping the game (and the series) once I realized it wasn't going to happen.

Lol that was a mistake on your part as MGS3 is the best one and 2 is amazing.

FuriousFox posted...

I think you have to realize that there's nothing forcing the player to continue playing the game after an event like that. I know I had a similar moment with MGS2 wondering when the hell it's going to let me play as Snake again. I wound up dropping the game (and the series) once I realized it wasn't going to happen.

agreed.

I don't fault anyone for dropping something for any reason.

I once dropped Resident Evil, when I was about 13, since that zombie eating the STARS member cutscene in the beginning scared me too much.

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

The whole cycle of revenge story failed to resonate with *some people because of how they told the narrative. *Some people didn't give a shit, the message failed, and *some people understandably called the somesomegame garbage.

*fixed

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

TLOU 2 could have been a great game and not just a game pandered to which is what all the awards it got are, pandering.

ah, "pandering", there we go...

After replaying the game a total of three times, I'm firmly rooted in the fact that the haters really just hate that Joel died. It wasn't done in a stupid way despite what they are saying.

I believe both the first and second game are masterpieces, I platinumed them both. I really hope a third gets released.

g0ldie posted...

but just because the story is structured in a way that we might not like, it doesn't mean that it's poorly written

It does, however, mean that we don't like it.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

It does, however, mean that we don't like it.

and that's fine.

no one has to like anything, whether it's something conventionally structured, attempting something risky, or other.

also, no one has to like anything in general, whether it's well regarded, or not.

on my end, I wasn't feeling how the game was structured until it ended, and I felt like whatever ND was attempting clicked with me.

g0ldie posted...

also, no one has to like anything in general, whether it's well regarded, or not.

Also true. TLOU2 was bad.

highly disagreed, but to each their own.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Yeah fans put him on this pedestal and forger how much of an ass hoke he actually is

Im more upset that they killed him off too early.

spikethedevil posted...

Yeah fans put him on this pedestal and forger how much of an ass hoke he actually is

More like the writers did.

spikethedevil posted...

Yeah fans put him on this pedestal and forger how much of an ass hoke he actually is

We live in a society where people love brooding assholes who believe to be nothing but pragmatic. It's the same reason why people love Wolverine and Ralph.

Yeah thats why its such a good finale when she cowardly doesnt kill after having her damn fingers chomped off. What a limp and shitty ending. Fuck this game.

Everyone guessed he was gonna die from the first teaser trailer, so it shouldn't have been a surprise. Although the later trailers tried to fake him being in later parts of the game he wasn't actually in.

Lairen posted...

Yeah thats why its such a good finale when she cowardly doesnt kill after having her damn fingers chomped off. What a limp and shitty ending. Fuck this game.

But don't you get it? If you seek vengeance you had better dig two graves, cause...well, actually, I mean, maybe you'd want to dig like thirty graves for all the people you killed along the way before you took the moral high ground and stopped one thwack short of getting vengeance.

But you know, morality or something. She just wouldn't be able to live with herself if she killed the person who brutally murdered her father figure. Oh and she can't play guitar anymore. S A T I S F Y I N G E N D I N G L O L

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

um, she wasn't.

Ellie could have also just left Abby on the pillar and let her die.

Ellie could have just killed Abby, who didn't want to fight at that point.

the fight only happened because Ellie forced it.