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Current Events > If anything, ND should've be commended for having the balls to (TLOU2 spoiler)

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Unsugarized_Foo
03/20/22 1:12:36 PM
#51:


>Main character kills houndreds of people
>Gets hunted down by chance by victims family
>Mainer character gets mad and kills hundreds of people to kill killer while simultaneously being upset about killing people
>A pregnant lesbian, her girlfriend, Texas Asian feller baby daddy, and a buttmad redneck are relaxing at the movies when a D1 swimming gold medalist walks into the room
> People die but who cares and everyone becomes sick of killing after killing everyone
>Fin

That's my spark notes. Fun game though

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Gobstoppers12
03/20/22 1:12:45 PM
#52:


g0ldie posted...
the fight only happened because Ellie forced it.
Because the writers forced it*

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--Zero-
03/20/22 1:13:43 PM
#53:


10/10 game. Fuck the bias.

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g0ldie
03/20/22 1:17:12 PM
#54:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
Because the writers forced it*
of course, the writers create everything about the characters, from personality to motivations to conflicts to resolutions, and so on, but idk what the point of being pedantic about this in particular

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#55
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--Zero-
03/20/22 1:25:34 PM
#56:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I mean if you read the reasons why they dont like the game then the bias is pretty obvious.

The game has a list of plots that would trigger people to be bias.

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Gobstoppers12
03/20/22 1:27:20 PM
#57:


g0ldie posted...
of course, the writers create everything about the characters, from personality to motivations to conflicts to resolutions, and so on, but idk what the point of being pedantic about this in particular
The point is that characters should feel like they're acting the way they would act. There are terms like "Plot Induced Stupidity" which describe those weird moments in a story where a character who is normally very smart, careful, and level-headed will do something absolutely ridiculous for the sake of making certain events happen the way the author wants them to happen.

It's a cheat device for writing--if you realize your characters are too smart or too pragmatic to make the story happen in a particular way, you just...make them act unlike themselves, like taking direct control of an NPC in a video game to force things to happen in a certain way.

When writing a fully-realized character, there is, on some level, a sense that the character is making their own decisions and the author is merely describing those decisions to the reader. When you write a story as if you're playing with action figures as an eight-year-old, where anything goes and there's no sense of consistency, then discerning audiences can tell that you're forcing the characters' hand a bit too much in order to serve your desired outcomes.

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#58
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--Zero-
03/20/22 1:33:05 PM
#59:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]



She killed those people because they as a group killed the most important person in her life. Her story was about grieving and coming to accept the loss and move on. The other characters that were killed were for the sake of it being a video game where you have enemies to take care of. I didnt even have to think about that as I played it since I didnt have a bias toward how I wanted the plot to go and what they did to a character thats a bit older and has gone through some stuff.

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Gobstoppers12
03/20/22 1:35:13 PM
#60:


--Zero- posted...
She killed those people because they as a group killed the most important person in her life. Her story was about grieving and coming to accept the loss and move on. The other characters that were killed were for the sake of it being a video game where you have enemies to take care of.
"Just accept that your father-figure's killer is out there still, free to live and breathe and do as she likes. Also she bit your fingers off and you can't play guitar--just accept it, move on, haven't you grieved long enough?"

The timing and setup of everything is just ridiculously clumsy and in no way satisfying.

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g0ldie
03/20/22 1:36:03 PM
#61:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
The point is that characters should feel like they're acting the way they would act. There are terms like "Plot Induced Stupidity" which describe those weird moments in a story where a character who is normally very smart, careful, and level-headed will do something absolutely ridiculous for the sake of making certain events happen the way the author wants them to happen.

It's a cheat device for writing--if you realize your characters are too smart or too pragmatic to make the story happen in a particular way, you just...make them act unlike themselves, like taking direct control of an NPC in a video game to force things to happen in a certain way.

When writing a fully-realized character, there is, on some level, a sense that the character is making their own decisions and the author is merely describing those decisions to the reader. When you write a story as if you're playing with action figures as an eight-year-old, where anything goes and there's no sense of consistency, then discerning audiences can tell that you're forcing the characters' hand a bit too much in order to serve your desired outcomes.
what was established of Ellie, her pulling Abby down from the pillar and forcing the fight did make sense in relation to what was established of her character throughout the game; especially with her traveling all the way to California so that she might have a chance to kill Abby.

there were multiple times where she felt she should just let her go, and others telling her the same, but due to her PTSD, dealing with her revenge became an obsession.

whether it's because she saw Abby in the state that she was in, or because she saw how her actions would affect another (Lev) was she able to finally let things go.

a case of plot-induced stupidity, IMO, was when Abby and her friends let Ellie and Tommy live in the beginning, like they should feel gracious for not being killed.

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#62
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lilORANG
03/20/22 1:37:47 PM
#63:


TLOU2 was critically and commercially successful. ND is commended for its writing. It's a vocal minority that probably didn't even buy the game that complain about it.

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Veggeta_MAX
03/20/22 1:39:33 PM
#64:


People hated it so much they were willing to make up shit to justify hating on it.

https://imgur.com/0arl0PY

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#65
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lilORANG
03/20/22 1:43:04 PM
#66:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Me? No. I don't have opinions of games I didn't play. But in the case of TLOU 2 there were already vocal haters before the game was released bc Druckman and ND was supposedly "woke" or whatever. Those types of haters absolutely shit on things they've never played. You see it not just in games but movies and TV and fucking school curriculum now.

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#67
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lilORANG
03/20/22 1:48:32 PM
#68:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

If you played it and didn't like it, that's fine. I was responding to TC's OP (which I get is confusing bc I chimed it'll at post 60) which implies ND hasn't been comended for its writing. It's a huge game, critically and commercially. ND very much has been comended.

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#69
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DarkBuster22904
03/20/22 1:51:17 PM
#70:


The main issue is that while TLOU was morally complex, TLOU2 is insultingly simple, while trying to pretend to be more complex than it is.

TLOU deals with humanity, parenthood, attachment. The ending dilemma isn't whether to sacrifice Ellie, but whether to GAMBLE Ellie. After all, there is NO reliable confirmation their cure would have actually worked. And all of this done without the consent of the victim, an innocent girl. It's not just a question of utilitarianism vs moralism, like so many like to pretend. It's about whether preserving our humanity is about fixing the external problem, and saving our society, or protecting the things we cherish the most; the things that differentiate us from the animals. It's about whether our pursuit of either end inherrently invalidates itself. It's about what it means to be the "last of us," and whether or not we WILL be the "last of us" as a result. And the game doesn't insult us by giving us a clear cut answer to the question; everybody and nobody was right.

TLOU2, in contrast, is frighteningly simple. "Revenge is bad, unless you're Joel cause then you deserved it." Its narratively both a downgrade from the prior entry, while simultaneously dragging down what the first entry was trying so hard to present. And retroactively poisoning the prequel is about the worst thing a sequel can do (and something a lot of sequels have been doing for the last 10 years or so).

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g0ldie
03/20/22 1:59:36 PM
#71:


DarkBuster22904 posted...
TLOU2, in contrast, is frighteningly simple. "Revenge is bad, unless you're Joel cause then you deserved it." Its narratively both a downgrade from the prior entry, while simultaneously dragging down what the first entry was trying so hard to present. And retroactively poisoning the prequel is about the worst thing a sequel can do (and something a lot of sequels have been doing for the last 10 years or so).
TLoU2's message isn't about "revenge being bad", though; it's about the cycle of violence being this neverending, perpetual thing that someone has to have the strength to put an end to.

it's also about empathy, grief, coping, obsession, and resolution.

those concepts might seem more "simple" because they're more universal, but they're not always easy to covey.

but just saying the game is about revenge being bad is really reductive, and ignores much of the story.

also, how does it "poison" the first game?

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DarkBuster22904
03/20/22 2:06:53 PM
#72:


g0ldie posted...
also, how does it "poison" the first game?
By pretty categorically and unsympathetically rewriting Joel to have been objectively wrong throughout TLoU. Something that the first game went to great lengths to avoid doing. And something it did quite successfully, considering how many people have begun parroting it since the game's launch.

It's retroactively stripped away the moral complexity that gave that conclusion so much punch. Hell, the first game went so far as to pretty un-subtly show that Ellie had a pretty good idea of what happened at the end of the game, and was choosing to reluctantly ignore it, only for the second game to have her SHOCKED and APPALLED that he could have POSSIBLY have done something like that.

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Lost_All_Senses
03/20/22 2:14:36 PM
#73:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I loved this. Especially since the first felt so boring and safe to me storywise. It felt like just another Hollywood movie, except now as a video game. Which ai also felt about Uncharted. I get the charm, but other than that the stories usually weren't that entertaining to me. The atmosphere and tense moments are what kept me.

I will say, this one the times where seeing people upset by it just make me like it more. I stayed completely blind and experienced it first hand and liked it before I knew others hated it too tho. I just don't take this stuff as serious as most people. So, it's funny seeing people trip out over fictional characters.

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g0ldie
03/20/22 2:17:07 PM
#74:


it didn't re-write Joel's character at all.

the biggest conflict in the game is related to Joel's actions in the first game, killing the doctor and Marlene, which put an end to that chapter of the Fireflies.

TLoU2 didn't have a chance to go over the viability of Ellie being used as a vaccine since everything was happening so fast, and Abby didn't even care about that. and as for Ellie, she was more pissed that Joel not just lied, but that he killed people in the process.

the only time they really had a chance to talk about it was in the flashback at the end, where Joel told Ellie he would do the same thing if given a chance.

the only real "moral complexity" the first game that people talk about was based around Joel being willing to put one person's well-being over the many, and being able to lie about it. I don't think there's anything in either game to suggest that Joel doubted that the vaccine would work, but in both games, it was established that he didn't care.

edit: at post 72

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#75
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Lost_All_Senses
03/20/22 2:30:38 PM
#76:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Fair enough. I experienced it 2 different ways, which also deepens it for me personally.

When you play it the second time, knowing what everything is leading up to makes it hard to watch in an entertaining way.

First time I just laughed cause it was so unexpected and threw me off. Second time I was jumping out my skin cause leading up to it, Joel's saving the life of the person who's about to end his violently. You can really see the difference between what Joel's thinking and what Abby's thinking. Because the 1st time you're like "She's probably gonna have a change of heart since he saved her life". But the 2nd time, when you know what it's leading to, you notice she's harder to read than initial perspective. Did she ever even consider not doing it? The 2nd time was way more intense to me. Which, Id argue is fantastic writing. To me, it's the best part of either game. Even knowing it was gonna happen, the way they wrote the characters and made them react to what was happening made my skin crawl. I also thought Abby had the way more interesting storyline overall. But I never finished it lol

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TheOtherMike
03/20/22 2:33:34 PM
#77:


Great game. The story wasn't as good as the first, but it was still great. And the gameplay was improved substantially across the board. My only real complaint is the pacing going off the rails near the end.
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#78
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Lairen
03/20/22 2:35:17 PM
#79:


This would be like someone from Ukraine killing everyone in Russia to get to putin, almost killing putin, and then deciding to take the high ground and not kill putin.....

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Lost_All_Senses
03/20/22 2:35:44 PM
#80:


I don't get how people don't connect with Abby. I need to finish, but I wanted her to win. I'mma not come back. Cause Im playing with getting it spoiled too much. Im so close to the end

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#81
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creativerealms
03/20/22 2:43:55 PM
#82:


SSJGrimReaper posted...
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/8/6/AAZroiAAAk9a.jpg
We both know the only problem people have with that is they don't think she's a supermodel.

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g0ldie
03/20/22 2:48:12 PM
#83:


when I say "empathy", I mean from the perspective of the player.

the characters see their opposition as "the other" or somehow worse than they are.

even Owen makes a point about how they're not as bad as Joel is, and that's why they end up sparing Ellie and Tommy.

the only time I feel that Ellie empathizes with Abby is when she recognizes Abby's relationship with Lev as being similar to her own relationship with Joel.

edit: at post 81

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#84
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g0ldie
03/20/22 2:58:47 PM
#85:


true.

also, even if they didn't go to Jackson to try to find Joel, they would have most likely would have died, anyway.

either from Isaac's failed war against the Seraphites or if they went to try to find the Fireflies in California, they would have been caught in that Rattler trap.

it's a messed up world.

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#86
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