Current Events > Parents of trans 5-year-old post heartwarming story of child's transition

(+) Yeah! (+)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

A gender identity is innate. A "gender" as we can express it both personally and conceptually is manufactured based on what tools we've developed to do so. Like language.

Like my point is there's no neuron we can point to and say "that's gender" in our brain, so we have to use our own expressive tools in order to explain it. That's the "invented" part. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Fingerpuppet posted...

You are taking parents at their word that their child wants to transition, and this is based on...the child saying something. You do grasp this, yes?

Yes. Because this is how children express things. They say something. They make noises. They cry. They laugh. They yell. The job of parents is to do their best to interpret that. It's easier when they're crying and there's a broken toy nearby. It's harder when they look at themselves in the mirror and burst into tears.

I will not assume I know more than the parents given what little information I have on this, which I can guarantee is no more than a tiny snapshot of the child's five years.

And, for some reason, you're turning this into an integrity issue (which I have not brought up and yet you continue to do so, for some reason) when I have already stated that the issue I take is with taking children at face value. Whether or not she or her parents are lying is immaterial. It is possible to be wrong without being a liar, which you refuse to acknowledge and apparently cannot fathom.

There are multiple people in this topic turning it into an integrity issue in this topic, claiming the parents are looking for clout. If you feel unfairly targeted in that, I'm sorry, but the idea of "the parents shouldn't be taking their child at face value on this subject despite me knowing only a couple of events in that child's life" seems like a pretty clear question of integrity.

*goes back in the topic*

Oh wait, you ARE claiming the parents just want "social media validation". This IS a clear question of integrity, and you're absolutely part of the group instigating it. Well done on trying to deflect, though.

Indeed, I'd agree that you and I are not the same. It's pretty telling that you address a single sentence in my post instead of the rest of it...which, interestingly, addressed what you wrote that I have (once again) addressed here. I'm curious to see what you'll do next.

I don't have to address every single point you make, especially if I feel there's no worth in addressing them in a direction you seem to want to steer the conversation.

All you've raised are "what ifs" that you can't prove.

CyricZ posted...

Gender is the range of physical, mental, and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. It uses the two most common sexes (male and female) as endpoints and integrates historical and cultural aspects of what those mean to individuals and to society.

It matters to people as they try to find their own place within society, particularly as pertains to their own identity within society.

Thank you for the post.

dioxxys posted...

Yeah I've also never understood this. If you truly want to break out of gender standards you shouldn't change your gender or invent new genders to explain your behaviors or what you wear.

You should be simply like hi I'm a man named deoxxys and I like to wear dresses.

Again, trans people do not all conform to gender roles.

hockeybub89 posted...

Again, trans people do not all conform to gender roles.

exactly? right? am I not seeing something that you are?

dioxxys posted...

exactly? right? am I not seeing something that you are?

Yes, gender roles are irrelevant to trans people existing. A trans man could defy every male gender norm and they'd still be a trans man. Again, trans people and LGBTQ people at large have suffered throughout history because of the norms. Their existence defies the norms because the norms don't define it. It's an innate part of who they are. Nothing will stop it any more than we can stop blue eyes.

We know that trans people exist, so I don't get what the point is of continuing to prattle on about social norms and how we should abolish gender. Maybe we should also abolish sadness so depressed people stop being depressed. "Pretend there are no differences and then no one can feel different" is not the solution here.

Effeminate men and masculine women exist. That is not what trans people are. They can't just choose to be that instead.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

If they're cis, they won't have any reason to.

But that's not a reason to ignore those of us who did at that age.

hockeybub89 posted...

"Pretend there are no differences and then no one can feel different" is not the solution here.

Men and women are the same though aren't they? Besides body shapes and sizes someone having interests is entirely on them. Labeling something as "masculine" or "Feminine" is entirely on the beholder, because everyone makes their own judgements.

"Society made me do it" ~ Joe Kerr

Is not a better way to go about things

MushroomMuncher posted...

Men and women are the same though aren't they? Besides body shapes and sizes someone having interests is entirely on them. Labeling something as "masculine" or "Feminine" is entirely on the beholder, because everyone makes their own judgements.

"Society made me do it" ~ Joe Kerr

Is not a better way to go about things

Dude you really need to fucking stop. I'm a girl regardless of if I'm hugging adorable anime pillow dolls or if I'm in a graphic tee with my ass out while playing a video game. The girl part is innate and was always there before any of the extra layers of interests and personality formed.

gunplagirl posted...

Dude you really need to fucking stop. I'm a girl regardless of if I'm hugging adorable anime pillow dolls or if I'm in a graphic tee with my ass out while playing a video game. The girl part is innate and was always there before any of the extra layers of interests and personality formed.

Oh look, you already have an idea of what stereotypes you can put onto either gender, exactly what I said.
You know this is the issue, you feel as if you're breaking the ceiling by doing things one views as "masculine" when in reality the issue is you see that as masculine in the first place

MushroomMuncher posted...

Oh look, you already have an idea of what stereotypes you can put onto either gender, exactly what I said.
You know this is the issue, you feel as if you're breaking the ceiling by doing things one views as "masculine" when in reality the issue is you see that as masculine in the first place

You're attributing intent where there is none. I literally said that the other stuff (like concepts of gender roles) came after.

Regardless of whatever I'm doing, I want to be read as female. Because I am one. The only difference is how society or the like attributes gender roles to the activities.

gunplagirl posted...

The only difference is how society or the like attributes gender roles to the activities.

And that's the issue I have.

MushroomMuncher posted...

And that's the issue I have.

Okay but that's a different topic entirely from gender identities, it's an adjacent one but you're making it the focal point when it's more of an after the fact thing.

MushroomMuncher posted...

And that's the issue I have.

Then take up your problem with society.

Go to society's building and knock on society's door to demand an end to what society has established gender to appear as.

420 blaze it

gunplagirl posted...

Dude you really need to fucking stop. I'm a girl regardless of if I'm hugging adorable anime pillow dolls or if I'm in a graphic tee with my ass out while playing a video game. The girl part is innate and was always there before any of the extra layers of interests and personality formed.

if a girl is not due to your sex, and not due to your interests what makes you a girl? People say its hard wired in our brains. What is hard wired? The word girl which doesnt exist and is a made up word? What is a girl ?

I pictured HHH just bolting out of bed in the morning this fine Christmas Eve and shouting "WHAT IS A GIRL" to empty air.

hockeybub89 posted...

Effeminate men and masculine women exist. That is not what trans people are. They can't just choose to be that instead.

my problem with understanding and believing in all the genders etc is this. I just have yet to hear a sensible explanation of what it means. What makes a trans woman different from an effeminate man if the definition of man is a masculine person?

CyricZ posted...

I pictured HHH just bolting out of bed in the morning this fine Christmas Eve and shouting "WHAT IS A GIRL" to empty air.

Lol

Glad that Clark has supportive parents

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Dont pretend this is all established science. Were in uncharted medical territory trans youth clinics, giving kids puberty blockers, etc is all cutting edge technology and unprecedented in history. We have no idea what the long term affects will be.

DowntownMrSmith posted...

Dont pretend this is all established science. Were in uncharted medical territory trans youth clinics, giving kids puberty blockers, etc is all cutting edge technology and unprecedented in history.

Perhaps, but they're better equipped than you are.

We have no idea what the long term affects will be.

Suspended accounts?

HHH is the game posted...

if a girl is not due to your sex, and not due to your interests what makes you a girl? People say its hard wired in our brains. What is hard wired? The word girl which doesnt exist and is a made up word? What is a girl ?

I just am one.

The interests, like when I was a small child wanting to look all cute and have nice dresses? I could understand that it was something girls got to experience. And in hindsight, I understand that I wanted to do that stuff so I, a girl, could have an experience that girls normally have. And in doing such a thing, I would have been able to help validate my gender.

It's why there's a million "and I put on a dress for the first time and just felt right/ so happy I cried" stories. Because that moment of actually validating your gender for the first time after being raised for years being told to do the opposite and being fearful of what would happen if you did it? It's like an immense burden is at least temporarily lifted and you don't just get to breathe. You get to feel and see and just take in sights that are validating.

The fact is that yeah, gender roles do play a role in how we validate the things at least on a basic level. But honestly you're asking questions that indicate you are looking for universally applicable answers to a question that's personal and differs between people.

The fact is, early on in transition I really benefited from that validation by doing things heavily in accordance with gender roles that aligned with my being a woman. But as I got more comfortable and got everything changed legally and dropped people from the before times and surrounded myself with people who only saw me as the real me, a woman... Yeah. It wasn't as necessary for me to do that stuff on a daily basis. So usually in the summer at home I'll be in a graphic tee with my ass hanging out. And even then, omg I get compliments when I video chat my partners. <3

But again, how my gender is validated will differ from that of other girls. I know a butch girl who loves it when she gets to dominate and tower over guys. But something like that wouldn't make me feel good at all. Meanwhile doing a bunch of makeup and lip filler and bimbo aesthetic stuff? I might not do that stuff much but I can relate to my friend who does that to validate herself.

And basically, cis people don't tend to need that validation because they rarely if ever get that identity challenged beyond the typical adolescent "that's for girls" crap hurled against guys who aren't perceived as adhering to strict male gender roles. *Shrugs* And in that regard I get why you might not be able to understand. But it also doesn't seem like you're trying.

Fyi I won't do an essay answer like this again so if you still don't get it it's because you're rushing to understand when you need to chill out and really take it in slowly.

CyricZ posted...

I pictured HHH just bolting out of bed in the morning this fine Christmas Eve and shouting "WHAT IS A GIRL" to empty air.

Diogenes rushes in with a miserable pile of lies. "Behold, a man!"

DowntownMrSmith posted...

Dont pretend this is all established science. Were in uncharted medical territory trans youth clinics, giving kids puberty blockers, etc is all cutting edge technology and unprecedented in history. We have no idea what the long term affects will be.

We've already got solid proof that giving the kids room to explore their identity while the puberty clock is frozen allows them to experiment without risking permanent deformations from undergoing the wrong one. And all the studies showing that trans kids with family that accepts them have a lot more healthy self esteem and whatnot than their peers who didn't have that and couldn't come out safely.

gunplagirl posted...

We've already got solid proof that giving the kids room to explore their identity while the puberty clock is frozen allows them to experiment without risking permanent deformations from undergoing the wrong one. And all the studies showing that trans kids with family that accepts them have a lot more healthy self esteem and whatnot than their peers who didn't have that and couldn't come out safely.

Some doctors believe there are harmful long term effects of puberty blockers, for example:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

For nearly a decade, the vanguard of the transgender-rights movement doctors, activists, celebrities and transgender influencers has defined the boundaries of the new orthodoxy surrounding transgender medical care: Whats true, whats false, which questions can and cannot be asked.

They said it was perfectly safe to give children as young as nine puberty blockers and insisted that the effects of those blockers were fully reversible. They said that it was the job of medical professionals to help minors to transition. They said it was not their job to question the wisdom of transitioning, and that anyone who did including parents was probably transphobic. They said that any worries about a social contagion among teen girls was nonsense. And they never said anything about the distinct possibility that blocking puberty, coupled with cross-sex hormones, could inhibit a normal sex life.

Their allies in the media and Hollywood reported stories and created content that reaffirmed this orthodoxy. Anyone who dared disagree or depart from any of its core tenets, including young women who publicly detransitioned, were inevitably smeared as hateful and accused of harming children.
But that new orthodoxy has gone too far, according to two of the most prominent providers in the field of transgender medicine: Dr. Marci Bowers, a world-renowned vaginoplasty specialist who operated on reality-television star Jazz Jennings; and Erica Anderson, a clinical psychologist at the University of California San Franciscos Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic.

...

But in the last decade, watchful waiting has been supplanted by affirmative care, which assumes children do know whats best. Affirmative care proponents urge doctors to corroborate their patients belief that they are trapped in the wrong body. The family is pressured to help the child transition to a new gender identity sometimes having been told by doctors or activists that, if they dont, their child may eventually commit suicide. From there, pressures build on parents to begin concrete medical steps to help children on their path to transitioning to the right body. That includes puberty blockers as a preliminary step. Typically, cross-sex hormones follow and then, if desired, gender surgery.

The widespread use of puberty blockers can be traced to the Netherlands. In the mid-1990s, Peggy Cohen-Kettenis, a psychologist in Amsterdam who had studied young people with gender dysphoria, helped raise awareness about the potential benefits of blockers formerly used in the chemical castration of violent rapists. Pharmaceutical companies were happy to fund studies on the application of blockers in children, and, gradually, whats called the Dutch Protocol was born. The thinking behind the protocol was: Why make a child who has suffered with gender dysphoria since preschool endure puberty, with all its discomforts and embarrassments, if that child were likely to transition as a young adult? Researchers believed blockers effects were reversible just in case the child did not ultimately transition.

Cohen-Kettenis later grew doubtful about that initial assessment. It is not clear yet how pubertal suppression will influence brain development, she wrote in the European Journal of Endocrinology in 2006. Puberty is not merely a biochemical development; it is also a psycho-social event that occurs in concert with ones peers, Doctor William Malone, an endocrinologist and member of the Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine, told me. Hormones do not merely stimulate sex organs during puberty; they also shower the brain.

But at the very moment when Dutch researchers were beginning to raise concerns about puberty blockers, American health providers discovered it. In 2007, the Dutch Protocol arrived at Boston Childrens Hospital, one of the preeminent childrens hospitals in the nation. It would soon become the leading course of treatment for all transgender-identified children and adolescents in the United States. One of them was Jazz Jennings.

...

The problem for kids whose puberty has been blocked early isnt just a lack of tissue but of sexual development. Puberty not only stimulates growth of sex organs. It also endows them with erotic potential. If youve never had an orgasm pre-surgery, and then your puberty's blocked, it's very difficult to achieve that afterwards, Bowers said. I consider that a big problem, actually. It's kind of an overlooked problem that in our informed consent of children undergoing puberty blockers, weve in some respects overlooked that a little bit.

Nor is this a problem that can be corrected surgically. Bowers can build a labia, a vaginal canal and a clitoris, and the results look impressive. But, she said, if the kids are orgasmically naive because of puberty blockade, the clitoris down there might as well be a fingertip and brings them no particular joy and, therefore, theyre not able to be responsive as a lover. And so how does that affect their long-term happiness?

Few, if any, other doctors acknowledge as much. The Mayo Clinic, for instance, does not note that permanent sexual dysfunction may be among puberty blockers risks. St. Louis Childrens Hospital doesnt mention it, either. Oregon Health & Science University Childrens Hospital and University of California at San Francisco dont. Nor was there any mention of sexual dysfunction in a recent New York Times story, What Are Puberty Blockers?

Jack Turban, the chief fellow in child and adolescent psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine, wrote, in 2018: The only significant side effect is that the adolescent may fall behind on bone density.

But lack of bone density is often just the start of the problem. Patients who take puberty blockers almost invariably wind up taking cross-sex hormones and this combination tends to leave patients infertile and, as Bowers made clear, sexually dysfunctional.

On an episode of I Am Jazz, Jazz revealed that she had never experienced an orgasm and may never be able to. But she remains optimistic. I know that once I fall in love and I really admire another individual that Im going to want to have sex with them, Jazz said at 16, in an episode that aired in July of 2017.

In the year after her operation, Jazz would require three more surgeries, and then defer Harvard College for a year to deal with her depression. In 2021, she opened up about a binge-eating disorder that caused her to gain nearly 100 pounds in under two years.

Jazz has insisted she has no regrets about her transition. (I reached out to Jazz for an interview and never heard back). But subjecting patients to a course of serious interventions that cannot be scrutinized even by experts without one risking being tarred as anti-trans seems unlikely to be in anyones best interest.

Uh TC, you know who Bari Weiss is, right?

CyricZ posted...

Uh TC, you know who Bari Weiss is, right?

This

And also, if the concern is brain development then consider that most teens on puberty blockers are off them and starting puberty (natural or with hormone treatment) by 16. And historically speaking, the historic bell curve for when people started puberty had most people beginning puberty at 16. It really only started earlier in the last 2 centuries as things like grains and more accessible protein year round became staples of diets and thus provided enough body fat to safely develop the hormones that begin puberty.

Also, highlighting a post focusing on the genitals of a minor and her orgasm state at the time is fucking creepy

HHH is the game posted...

my problem with understanding and believing in all the genders etc is this. I just have yet to hear a sensible explanation of what it means. What makes a trans woman different from an effeminate man if the definition of man is a masculine person?

I honestly don't know. But we know trans people exist and that it has jack shit to do with gender roles or how progressive their upbringing was.

Knowing something exists, seeing it in front of your face and going "This can't be real. I don't understand it" is not productive. Let's learn to understand trans people rather than try to disprove these existence and tell them all they are making it up and thinking a certain way that is irrelevant to why they are who they are.

CyricZ posted...

Uh TC, you know who Bari Weiss is, right?

Its always the same. People saying no look, I have these very serious, very real sources to back up my bullshit transphobic opinions! And then posting shit from fucking the gender critical institute of sciences or some shit. Without fail.

Bari fucking Weiss, lmao.

MrToothHasYou posted...

Its always the same. People saying no look, I have these very serious, very real sources to back up my bullshit transphobic opinions! And then posting shit from fucking the gender critical institute of sciences or some shit. Without fail.

Bari fucking Weiss, lmao.

The article is quoting from doctors who have performed thousands of gender transition surgeries, and who are themselves trans women. How sad you cant even address their substantive points because it doesnt fit your narrative. Really, who is being disingenuous here?

And the reason its on substack is because the doctors tried to get the New York Times to run the story but they passed, saying it was outside their coverage priorities.

DowntownMrSmith posted...

The article is quoting from doctors who have performed thousands of gender transition surgeries, and who are themselves trans women. How sad you cant even address their substantive points because it doesnt fit your narrative. Really, who is being disingenuous here?

Bari Weiss or not even some European countries are banning puberty blockers

Dathrowed1 posted...

Bari Weiss or not even some European countries are banning puberty blockers

Decisions which are contested as being not sound on their evidence.

CyricZ posted...

I pictured HHH just bolting out of bed in the morning this fine Christmas Eve and shouting "WHAT IS A GIRL" to empty air.

Why did that put this in my head

https://youtu.be/XF3msG935PE

CyricZ posted...

Then take up your problem with society.

Go to society's building and knock on society's door to demand an end to what society has established gender to appear as.

"Society made me do this" ~Joe Kerr

MushroomMuncher posted...

"Society made me do this" ~Joe Kerr

Dude, you're the only one with a problem with society. Everything is materialism to you.

CyricZ posted...

I pictured HHH just bolting out of bed in the morning this fine Christmas Eve and shouting "WHAT IS A GIRL" to empty air.

lmao

Gwynevere posted...

Why did that put this in my head

https://youtu.be/XF3msG935PE

Did this man just say "pussy" in his sleep?

Merry Christmas!

Lol almost 450 posts... who could've guessed