Current Events > Who is to blame for the failures of the Star Wars sequel trilogy?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Which one is it?

Disney, honestly.

I'm all for allowing creative license, but to not have at least a ROUGH story plan before making a trilogy was stupid as sin. Especially since JJ Abrams clearly went for "give everyone what they want" while Rian Johnson tried to subvert expectations.

Either one would've been "OK" but to mix those two together was a disaster.


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George Lucas

Failing to actually plan out the trilogy when you decided from the start you want a trilogy was a supremely stupid move.

It's amazing how many people know that and still find any sort of fault with the fans for just saying they didn't like it.

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Kathleen Kennedy

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Every single person at Disney.

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Jagr_68 posted...

Every single person at Disney.

Even that Jack Sparrow guy who walks around Magic Kingdom?

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The fact that you can actually sense the animosity between Abrams and Johnson in the openings of the second and third films is really indicative of the problems those films had.

Johnson was told he could do whatever he wanted, which I guess would've been fine had it been the first (or last) film of the trilogy, but TLJ opens with Luke metaphorically (and in a way, quite literally) throwing away the previous film's intentions. Then the rest of the film is a sort-of critique on the tropes of Star Wars with a vague sense that maybe it's time to accept that the Rebellion and the Empire/First Order are just decaying remnants of an unnecessary and stupid cyclical conflict, fought for reasons nobody even cares about anymore.

I didn't like the film, but I did appreciate the general theme created with stuff like "your parents don't actually matter, Luke is a tired relic of a stupid conflict, Snoke is just another moron who got too overconfident" etc. It seemingly sets up the third film for a flat-out rejection of Jedi/Sith and this senseless dichotomy.

And then the third film turns around and goes "no actually your parents do matter, the Jedi are good and the Sith are bad, we need the Rebellion and the Empire is evil, fight fight fight lol also Finn can use the Force for some reason. Now let's rehash every trope regarding bad guys turning good, a fucking knife shaped like the Death Star (what) and destiny and whatever. Also yay Skywalker?"

It was so weird.


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DarkRoast posted...

no actually your parents do matter, the Jedi are good and the Sith are bad, we need the Rebellion and the Empire is evil, fight fight fight

And...

Buy buy buy.

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Disney ruined it. George Lucas should not have had his legacy stolen from him

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Just the way it should be.

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The people who made the movies, but the fans are still worse

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Y'know, looking at how hardcore Disney is going in order to integrate Star Wars experiences into the theme parks, I get the feeling that an actual mature extraction of the "good guys vs bad guys" simplicity of the story would ultimately steer away from the commoditization of stormtrooper helmets, lightsabers, starfighters, and thus would be less marketable.

Feeds into the concept of forever war being good for business, but in a fantasy aspect instead of the reality aspect of having little boys buy plastic toy soldiers.

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Abrams would have made a safe, predictable trilogy. The third movie wouldn't have needed to spend such a large amount of time deliberately undoing the second film, which would've helped.

Johnson's film suggested he would probably have taken the more "expanded universe" route by introducing moral ambiguity (IE, the Jedi are too dogmatic, the Sith too self-destructive, etc). You could tell he was trying to set up Rey to be less "good" and Kylo to be less "evil" without either having to suddenly reject the light/dark in some weird epiphany. Knights of the Old Republic II's Kreia was a perfect example of a character that would make this sort of thing work.

I probably would've liked Johnson's films more, just because Star Wars really needs some subversion. It's just too good/evil black/white. Winds up feeling far too predictable (RoS being the shining example of this). But ironically, TLJ probably ruined this new trilogy simply because it started and ended with Abrams.

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wbloechel posted...

Kathleen Kennedy

She brought in Abrams to start a story, and he went the safe route and mirrored the original, but then she brought in Rian Johnson who shit all over what Abrams was trying to set up and she didn't even have a plan in mind.

Then she just brought back Abrams to shit on what Johnson did and it was all a complete mess. However I do wish from here on out it would just alternate between the two directing the new Star Wars movies and they continually become more hostile with each other and make every movie shit on the previous one's ideas. That would potentially be entertaining. And as I have no hope for new Star Wars movies to be actually good, this would be the only way I would entertain the idea of paying to see one.

They should have Abrams and Johnson do simultaneous multiverse Deadpool films that deliberately trash each other personally.


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DarkRoast posted...

The fact that you can actually sense the animosity between Abrams and Johnson in the openings of the second and third films is really indicative of the problems those films had.

It's almost a nostalgic feeling for me, the way it plays out like two kids fighting over their Star Wars action figures. It's as if Johnson came in and smashed Abrams favorite toys, then Abrams retaliated... except they're playing with billions of dollars.

I'm so deep in as a fan that I enjoy all of the movies in a way that isn't rational, but even I can admit what a big fucking mess the sequel trilogy is in terms of planning.

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wbloechel posted...

^ I couldn't agree more. (on your two posts lol) AND on that Deadpool experiment too! That would be amazing. Who get's Ryan Reynolds? Does he do both?

See here's the kicker:

Ryan Reynolds plays Deadpool as well as Abrams and Johnson

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CyricZ posted...

Y'know, looking at how hardcore Disney is going in order to integrate Star Wars experiences into the theme parks, I get the feeling that an actual mature extraction of the "good guys vs bad guys" simplicity of the story would ultimately steer away from the commoditization of stormtrooper helmets, lightsabers, starfighters, and thus would be less marketable.

Feeds into the concept of forever war being good for business, but in a fantasy aspect instead of the reality aspect of having little boys buy plastic toy soldiers.

Damn, that's meta.

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Whoever decided to give control to two different directors with conflicting ideas of how the trilogy should play out.

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JJ, Rian, and Kathleen.
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Ridley Scott should do a trilogy.

First movie like Alien, second like Blade Runner, and final one like Kingdom of Heaven crossed with Gladiator

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Disney and the fans deserve each other.

All I know is Rian Johnson did nothing wrong.

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DarkRoast posted...

Johnson's film suggested he would probably have taken the more "expanded universe" route by introducing moral ambiguity (IE, the Jedi are too dogmatic, the Sith too self-destructive, etc). You could tell he was trying to set up Rey to be less "good" and Kylo to be less "evil" without either having to suddenly reject the light/dark in some weird epiphany. Knights of the Old Republic II's Kreia was a perfect example of a character that would make this sort of thing work.

I'm with you all the way up to Kreia, but only because Kreia kinda dropped the ball at the last second, but the ideas she was representing up until the third act fit right into that.

It's why I'm excited for where High Republic is going to go, because the kicker about it is there there are no Sith in this era, or even dark side Force users. The Jedi are big, powerful, loved, and still quite dogmatic, and the Republic is at peace and the on the verge of expansion into the Outer Rim. The enemy force is a jumped-up pirate band that's just really good at fucking things up and hiding, and the very visible and confident Jedi just don't have a great response to that.

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I blame The Jedi

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Alien: Rey is a crewmember on a small New Galactic Republic freighter bringing a mysterious shipment from an Outer Rim planet. Turns out it's a creature that literally eats the Force, as well as all living things that are given life by it (including humans.) Rey, unknowingly Force sensitive, is the only one who manages to survive when it breaks free of containment. The movie ends as she jettisons the creature into space, then reviews the ship's logs and realizes the New Galactic Republic knew about this dangerous creature all along.

Blade Runner: Finn hunts rogue droids on Coruscant on behalf of the New Galactic Republic, and discovers that a sizeable number of people are actually droids and don't know it. He spends most of the movie trying to find out why there are so many "droid humans" when he ultimately reveals that most of the New Galactic Republic, including the Prime Minister, are actually droids. The film ends on a plot twist in which it is strongly hinted that Finn himself is a droid.

Gladiator: Guilty of being a droid, Finn is sentenced to the Tattooine combat pits where he encounters Rey, who has been hiding from the New Galactic Republic after she was to be arrested for "losing" the valuable shipment. Together, they team up and learn that Rey has Force powers as they win their freedom via the combat pits. Finn divulges that he is actually a droid, and so is a large majority of the New Galactic Republic. Rey then realizes that only droids would be spared if the Force-eating creature were let loose on Coruscant. Finn then realizes that he was hunting "rogue" droids who were planning to make this information known (to warn the humans). The film ends as they realize the New Galactic Republic is actually the Empire.


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Bob Iger is to blame.

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Yeah they made the trilogy directionless. JJ Abrams even admitted that he made TFA using the "open box" method on leaving things a mystery and fill in the blanks as you go along. Then Johnson goes and tries to subvert expectations by making a lot of dead ends and ultimately trying to make it about Ray vs Kylo Ren... only for the third movie to throw in Palpatine just because not much people enjoyed the direction TLJ went. You gotta have a good foundation or the trilogy will suffer.

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There's so much to do with droids and the moral and ethical conundrums surrounding them, but I think the issue there is that so many other writers have done things better.

Also to re-examine how the Star Wars galaxy views droids would ultimately change it forever, and fly in the face of how marketable the cute ones are.

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Hollywood in general.

They still would have sucked if Lucasfilm made them.

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Damn_Underscore posted...

Hollywood in general.

They still would have sucked if Lucasfilm made them.

at least there would have been a single vision instead of dissociative personality disorder with a billion dollar budget

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I didn't think they were terrible.

Reality is, there could be nothing that would satisfy hardcore Star Wars fans. Zip. Nostalgia goggles refuse to let them see that the OT wasn't exactly a masterpiece. It was the best of the trilogies for sure but by today's standards not extraordinary.

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Adam Driver, keep your shirt on dude, no one wants to see that.

ur mom

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Rian Johnson. Fuck that dude.

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au_gold posted...

Kathleen Kennedy

lol, no. This is a stupid meme and you should feel ashamed for participating in it

It's 100% JJ Abrams' fault for not writing all 3 movies ahead of time and fighting to keep the trilogy on the rails.

Secondary fault is Disney for constantly firing directors and hiring new people. They did it with Solo, Last Jedi AND Rise of Skywalker

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Derwood posted...

It's 100% JJ Abrams' fault for not writing all 3 movies ahead of time and fighting to keep the trilogy on the rails.

yeah... but who gave him enough control to even do that

or not do that, whatever

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CyricZ posted...

Even that Jack Sparrow guy who walks around Magic Kingdom?

especially that guy

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DarkRoast posted...

Disney, honestly.

I'm all for allowing creative license, but to not have at least a ROUGH story plan before making a trilogy was stupid as sin. Especially since JJ Abrams clearly went for "give everyone what they want" while Rian Johnson tried to subvert expectations.

Either one would've been "OK" but to mix those two together was a disaster.

This is honestly how I feel too. I don't blame ryan anymore, I blame kathleen kennedy. How the hell do you go into a trilogy without a plan? Like really? Also ryan would have been fine if they controlled him a little bit and if he listened to hamil lol

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yutterh posted...

This is honestly how I feel too. I don't blame ryan anymore, I blame kathleen kennedy. How the hell do you go into a trilogy without a plan? Like really? Also ryan would have been fine if they controlled him a little bit and if he listened to hamil lol

You realize that Kathleen Kennedy isn't the only producer at Disney, right?

Also, you realize that Kathleen Kennedy also produced most of the Star Wars stuff you like, right?

DarkRoast posted...

Alien: Rey is a crewmember on a small New Galactic Republic freighter bringing a mysterious shipment from an Outer Rim planet. Turns out it's a creature that literally eats the Force, as well as all living things that are given life by it (including humans.) Rey, unknowingly Force sensitive, is the only one who manages to survive when it breaks free of containment. The movie ends as she jettisons the creature into space, then reviews the ship's logs and realizes the New Galactic Republic knew about this dangerous creature all along.

Blade Runner: Finn hunts rogue droids on Coruscant on behalf of the New Galactic Republic, and discovers that a sizeable number of people are actually droids and don't know it. He spends most of the movie trying to find out why there are so many "droid humans" when he ultimately reveals that most of the New Galactic Republic, including the Prime Minister, are actually droids. The film ends on a plot twist in which it is strongly hinted that Finn himself is a droid.

Gladiator: Guilty of being a droid, Finn is sentenced to the Tattooine combat pits where he encounters Rey, who has been hiding from the New Galactic Republic after she was to be arrested for "losing" the valuable shipment. Together, they team up and learn that Rey has Force powers as they win their freedom via the combat pits. Finn divulges that he is actually a droid, and so is a large majority of the New Galactic Republic. Rey then realizes that only droids would be spared if the Force-eating creature were let loose on Coruscant. Finn then realizes that he was hunting "rogue" droids who were planning to make this information known (to warn the humans). The film ends as they realize the New Galactic Republic is actually the Empire.

I'd watch that.
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DarkRoast posted...

The fact that you can actually sense the animosity between Abrams and Johnson in the openings of the second and third films is really indicative of the problems those films had.

Johnson was told he could do whatever he wanted, which I guess would've been fine had it been the first (or last) film of the trilogy, but TLJ opens with Luke metaphorically (and in a way, quite literally) throwing away the previous film's intentions. Then the rest of the film is a sort-of critique on the tropes of Star Wars with a vague sense that maybe it's time to accept that the Rebellion and the Empire/First Order are just decaying remnants of an unnecessary and stupid cyclical conflict, fought for reasons nobody even cares about anymore.

I didn't like the film, but I did appreciate the general theme created with stuff like "your parents don't actually matter, Luke is a tired relic of a stupid conflict, Snoke is just another moron who got too overconfident" etc. It seemingly sets up the third film for a flat-out rejection of Jedi/Sith and this senseless dichotomy.

And then the third film turns around and goes "no actually your parents do matter, the Jedi are good and the Sith are bad, we need the Rebellion and the Empire is evil, fight fight fight lol also Finn can use the Force for some reason. Now let's rehash every trope regarding bad guys turning good, a fucking knife shaped like the Death Star (what) and destiny and whatever. Also yay Skywalker?"

It was so weird.

@DarkRoast

Damn this was a really good post. Really sums up the contradictory themes of these two films very well. Well said.

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Absolutely the fans.

You know, the same people who acted like their world was ending over the prequels but now suddenly act like those are good movies.

The same people who had meltdowns over the 2008 Clone Wars but now act like its a television masterpiece.

Worst fanbase ever.

And I say that as a Star Wars fan.



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Derwood posted...

You realize that Kathleen Kennedy isn't the only producer at Disney, right?

Also, you realize that Kathleen Kennedy also produced most of the Star Wars stuff you like, right?

She is the president of lucas films. She is just not some producer and she had a much bigger sway this time around. She was part of it and it looks good on paper which is why she got the job but she really didn't do much when she was involved with that stuff. I don't remember where I read or what videos I saw explaining more about what she actually did but I believe she was against a lot of stuff that was successful for original star wars. But her being thepresident of lucas films and not having a better game plan into the trilogy is her fault.

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rexcrk posted...

Absolutely the fans.

You know, the same people who acted like their world was ending over the prequels but now suddenly act like those are good movies.

The same people who had meltdowns over the 2008 Clone Wars but now act like its a television masterpiece.

Worst fanbase ever.

And I say that as a Star Wars fan.

I personally loved the prequels and clone wars. Also it isn't that they disliked the show but they disliked the movie which was pretty blanneb to be honest. But a lot really dis like the clone wars. Also the main hate for the prequels is jar jar, medichlorins, the Senate stuff (which I liked) and anakin being a whiny bitch.

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They obviously did have a plan, but changed course. It's definitely on Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger (and Goerge for not making the Sequels BEFORE he sold).

I can't believe people buy that Hollywood talk "We just let JJ and Rian have full control." Bull fucking shit.