Current Events > How can people hate on tlou2?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nice comic that you made by yourself.
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untrustful posted...

But if you're going that route, knowing most people aren't open minded, then you have to go the extra extra mile to justify that criticism and the eventual death sentence.

Reframing the encounter between Joel and Abby's dad works for open minded people, they can interpret that as a different point of view from Abby and her father. But if you're not, you're not going to appreciate the game essentially gaslighting you into retconning how the encounter was setup.

In part 1 I believe the firefly doctors actually tried multiple times to create a vaccine with people just like Ellie (people who were immune to the infection) and they failed. So Joel was right all along saving her life. Not only that it just goes against the principles of doctors, like they couldn't find another way to create a vaccine without sacrificing someone's life? People hate the game because they ruined the characters particularly Ellie. Ellie was completely unlikable towards the end, and many people have said that is a huge reason why they hate the game or dislike the story.

darkstar4221 posted...

In part 1 I believe the firefly doctors actually tried multiple times to create a vaccine with people just like Ellie (people who were immune to the infection) and they failed

They did, but the subjects weren't like Ellie, Jerry remarks that Ellie is unlike anything they've ever seen.

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Damn the pipe bombs are hella useful

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I want revenge......now i dont.

And you cant bite fingers off like that.

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LordMarshal posted...

I want revenge......now i dont.

And you cant bite fingers off like that.

dont think Ive seen this yet...

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lww99 posted...

dont think Ive seen this yet...

That's cause it's a spoiler, my dude.

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Heckkkk

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Thinking Joel was the good guy in all of this says a lot about you, just saying.

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Veggeta X posted...

Thinking Joel was the good guy in all of this says a lot about you, just saying.

Yeah, I don't get how anyone can claim TLOU1 was ambiguous or that the vaccine wouldn't have worked

Not only was the game blatant about it, Joel's entire character arc is based on it

Why would he have lied to Ellie in the first place and why was storming the facility to save Ellie a dramatic act if it wasn't an act of selfishness?

The entire point was that Joel wasn't prepared to lose another loved one, even at the cost of everyone else , that was his arc

Ellie was the first person to make him feel something since the outbreak, he went from completely jaded to caring again

"The world fucked me I, so I fucked the world "

Take that away and the character of Joel becomes as bland as Ellie and his decisions to lie/stand off with the fireflies just becomes plain silly

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so i love to shitpost about tlou2 but here is my serious take. after this i'll go back to talking about how there are no big boobs in TLOU2. i think the hate for tlou2 comes from two sources:

1. tlou2 very overtly deals with topical social issues in a way that i have never seen before in a big budget, mass market video game. what ive usually seen in AAA games is that if a character is gay (for example) its normally just expressed through some throwaway dialogue or it amounts to a tiny little subplot. in TLOU2 it's very obvious that the writer wanted to make some commentary on hot-button social issues (homosexuality, trans issues, antisemitism etc). if you are one of the whiners who is really sensitive about "SJW" shit then TLOU2 will make you whine more and that's by design
2. I think that video games as a medium have not really matured as much as people want to think. what i see is there is this sort of transactional approach TLOU2 haters have when they approach the game, they were expecting this plot where they'd get to play as Joel again and fight the bad guys with Ellie etc. Instead they got a new direction with the plot and new characters (even though Joel is still a central character if you play the game). I think this kind of reflects how gaming as a medium hasn't really progressed - the writers want people to consume the game as an artistic work, but then a large subset of the players are like "i paid you my $60, i want more zombie shanking adventures with Joel. wtf is this shit"

my personal take is that I think it's a good game but not amazing. gameplay wise i thought it was fine, some cool set pieces but I thought the human encounters could have been improved with better AI/stealth options. story-wise, i really liked the Ellie/Abbey take but thought it could have been done better.

The Abbey part was way too long imo. it really drags towards the end & lot of it felt like the writer was making it up as he went along (i.e. that whole hospital part felt like a sidequest). I found it hard to care about the side characters since most characters except Ellie and Abbey were pretty flat. I also disliked the inclusion of the Cult (forgot their name) - I thought they were kind of cheesy and didn't make a ton of sense, they felt kind of like a plot device to me.

overall a pretty cool game, if there is a ps5 patch i'll probably replay it in ng+ and skip the cutscenes.

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I dont think Joel is a good dude, but I understand how he came to that decision

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Joel saving Ellie was both selfish and the right thing to do. Fuck the fireflies.

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Romulox28 posted...

I think that video games as a medium have not really matured as much as people want to think.

Ironically I kinda agree but for the opposite reasons you do. If that's your claim the why does TLOUS2 sell so well and is so popular?

I'd argue it did so well because TLOU2 is a pretty immature game, like Fortnight and others. Its success demonstrates that gamers haven't matured. I feel a similar feeling about God War on the PS4. They want very simple and basic, no new ideas, same thing they've seen before, skin deep done over and over again

Games that actually have mature themes and explore them in interesting ways tend to not nearly be as popular. See This War or Mine or Spec Ops The Line or Oui! The Revolution or Silent Hill 2.

Gamers as a generalization don't want that, they don't want to think or explore themes or hear interesting stories. They want childish same old same old.

Which sucks because people like Naughty Dog were in a position to try to change that but chose not to. Rockstar bless their hearts tried.

I think the bitterest pill for TLOU2 fans to swallow is not that people hate the game because it's so deep. It's that people just don't care about the game much because it's so bland and cliche. IF they accept that reality then they have to admit they like bland boring things which take no risks, and a lot of people are not comfortable doing that

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Bro you did not just compare tlou2 and god of war with fucking FORTNIGHT


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I remember that people were upset that Ellie kissed a girl during E3 2018.

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Unfair what is your example of a "mature" game, I can't find an example of a game more mature game then TLoU2. Maybe just as mature, but not more then.

You don't have to like the game, but don't spread lies about it.

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lww99 posted...

Bro you did not just compare tlou2 and god of war with fucking FORTNIGHT

Specifically on the grounds of Maturity? Yeah, they're both shallow.

Maturity isn't slitting a pregnant woman's throat because sadface. There's no character, no arcs, no purpose, no themes, no ideas. It's all surface level to push more tropes.

As I mentioned in the top 10 topics, the Black Mages with random numbers in FFIX discovering that they "Stop" and not really understanding or processing what that means and you can talk to them and get different perspective, some almost child-like were a more meaningful, emotional and interesting exploration of death than anything in TLOU2 and they were very minor side characters in a kids game.

God of War is a bit better in that regard since there are themes, but it's still a very immature game. Don't make the mistake of conflating blood, swearing and death with maturity by default.

And that's what people like. There's nothing wrong if you like it too. It's just kinda silly (and ironically immature) to pretend it's not because you don't like the fact you like immature shallow things.

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Yazarogi posted...

Unfair what is your example of a "mature" game, I can't find an example of a game more mature game then TLoU2. Maybe just as mature, but not more then.

... I gave 4 examples in that post.

You don't have to like the game, but don't spread lies about it.

Nothing I said is a lie

Tell me what you think a mature game means? Because if you think it just means shallow blood and death then Mortal Kombat has you.

This might be a communication thing. I don't think maturity is age rating. Blood, swearing, sex, violence, drugs, death aren't mature thematically by default and when used for the sake of tropes or being edgy are immensely immature. Meanwhile plenty of kids games/stories can have mature themes.

I'd argue the movie UP is pretty mature for example. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more so than TLOU2

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UnfairRepresent posted...

This might be a communication thing. I don't think maturity is age rating. Blood, swearing, sex, violence, drugs, death aren't mature thematically by default and when used for the sake of tropes or being edgy are immensely immature. Meanwhile plenty of kids games/stories can have mature themes.

I'd argue the movie UP is pretty mature for example. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more so than TLOU2

weird post, you are making TLOU2 sound like it's Doom 2016 or Mortal Kombat or something

UnfairRepresent posted...

Maturity isn't slitting a pregnant woman's throat because sadface. There's no character, no arcs, no purpose, no themes, no ideas. It's all surface level to push more tropes.

did you skip all the cutscenes/dialogue or something lol

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Romulox28 posted...

weird post, you are making TLOU2 sound like it's Doom 2016 or Mortal Kombat or something

Doom and MK are no less shallow. They're just not pretending to be mature. Which ironically makes them more mature. TLOU2 plays sad music and has edgy bloody moments but in terms of depth or thought or theme or character isn't any more nuanced or thought out. If anything the characters in MK are less bland even if they are as shallow.

I think this is the heart of the differene between people who love TLOU2 and the people who are indifferent to it.

If you think deep emotional storytelling is generic tropes and sad music as sad things happen without rhyme/reason or pacing. Then you'll love it. If you wanted more or have played other games/seen other movies before, then it's just generic passionless blandness.

UP would not be improved or a deeper movie by a scene where Muntz cuts Doug up with a hacksaw and then Carl slits his throat as sad music plays and rains falls. Russell ends up losing an eye when the bird pokes it out because it's a feral bird and Russell was a fool to trust it.

It would be the opposite. It would be stupider and cliched.

Romulox28 posted...

did you skip all the cutscenes/dialogue or something lol

No I heard it all. It was very bland and dull.
Wouldn't matter if you did due to the forced walking sections that are unskippable.

Game would have been better with a lot of less of it and no forced walking sections, it was so padded.

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I honestly can't take you seriously with how fake you've made the Mel situation out to be. She isn't killed because "sad face"

Ellie is looking for Abby, they are trying to protect Abby, Ellie takes her eyes off Owen for half a second and he makes his move, she shoots owen then Mel attacks Ellie out of rage, a pretty normal human reaction to watching your loved one get shot. Ellie, despite not wanting to kill Mel because she's pregnant (and made that clear while asking questions) has to defend herself and kill her.

How would you have changed the situation to make it fit into your parameters of what "mature" is?

Hell, let's expand upon this further. Ellie backs away from her scorched earth policy after the section where she tortures Nora to get information. She was fully willing to let Owen and Mel live, but loyalty ( a mature theme) exists in the real world just as it does in TLOU2. How exactly is that not mature?

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Yazarogi posted...

I honestly can't take you seriously with how fake you've made the Mel situation out to be. She isn't killed because "sad face"

Ellie is looking for Abby, they are trying to protect Abby, Ellie takes her eyes of Owen for half a second and he makes his move, she shoots owen then Mel attacks Ellie out of rage, a pretty normal human reaction to watching your loved one get shot. Ellie, despite not wanting to kill Mel because she's pregnant (and made that clear while asking questions) has to defend herself and kill her.

How would you have changed the situation to make it fit into your parameters of what "mature" is?

The point was that Ellie has killed and is killing people left right and center on her crusade.

Going "But this one is a pregnant lady! Isn't that sad? Ellie has a friend who is a pregnant lady too!" isn't maturity. It doesn't sting because the action is an unpleasant one when we have no investment whatsoever in the characters or their frankly bizarre actions. It's just there for the sake of it.

That standoff is a generic storytelling trope. Ellie, Owen and Pregnant lady are all bland generic placeholder characters who exist just to fill places in those tropes.

No one in the plot is there for their own sake. Nothing happens because the world exists. Everything revolves around Ellie and Abby's story and does so by repeating (mostly movie) tropes without rhyme, reason or pacing.

For example: Ellie in that scene is trying to get them to give up the location with that trick she learned from Joel... But she explains how the trick works while doing it... making it pointless... Because the people writing the game didn't think or care about that. They knew the purpose of the scene was just the standoff for sadface points. She could have walked in and just sang the theme of Scooby Doo before killing them and thematically the scene would be no different.

Nothing matters, nothing is built up, none of the people are real characters with quirks or interests or thoughts beyond whatever current trope they are in.

They literally pull the "Captured and placed 4 feet away from your gear as you're left in an easily escapable scenario to be resuced" trope for both characters and I think 3 times for Abby.

A Thought experiment:

Imagine that Jesse and Pregnant Lady played a game of chess. Now imagine that they weren't allowed to talk about the plot of TLOU while playing it.

What would they say?

Grab Bill and Evelyn Miller from RDR2 Or Beatrix and Baku from FF9 and I can think of a ton of stuff.

Because they are fleshed out characters. Not place holders to fill the next trope.

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Ellie in that scene is trying to get them to give up the location with that trick she learned from Joel... But she explains how the trick works while doing it... making it pointless... Because the people writing the game didn't think or care about that. They knew the purpose of the scene was just the standoff for sadface points. She could have walked in and just sang the theme of Scooby Doo before killing them and thematically the scene would be no different.

it doesnt matter if she explains how it works. Theyd still have to write something down.

but they never got that far

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Shit the way you dumb down everything about this game could be applied for ANY game. You're just nitpicky and biased, I win bye bye.

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https://youtu.be/dVQcZa4O01A

182k upvotes to 17k downvotes.

Pretty sure unfair is in the minority with his criticisms.

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Yazarogi posted...

Shit the way you dumb down everything about this game could be applied for ANY game.

Not really? What a lazy evasion.

Just didn't have the spine to admit I was right.

You're just nitpicky and biased, I win bye bye.

Case and point. You'll see this a lot from people who love TLOU2

When asked basic questions, they just insult everyone, declare they "won" and run away.

Which again, speaks a lot as it comes from the camp claiming they like it for it's "maturity"

It's not biased or nitpicky to ask basic questions about the plot or point out that all the characters are bland solely there to fill a spot in the next trope.

Yazarogi posted...

https://youtu.be/dVQcZa4O01A

182k upvotes to 17k downvotes.

Pretty sure unfair is in the minority with his criticisms.

I never denied that lots of people liked it. Transformers always make bank at the box office.

The criticisms that it's bland and has no interesting characters or passion aren't countered by pointing out the game had mass appeal and sold well. In fact they kinda support it. The user who literally argues that gamers by in large are immature and then brags about how well it sold inadvertantly demonstrated that .

In fact one my very first points in the topic was that very few people hate the game. There isn't enough there to hate, it's so meh so it's either indifference or love if you really like that blandness.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

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"You're just nitpicky and biased, I win bye bye."

Is a sarcastic quote from Dunkey himself, the fact you choose not to see it that way is pretty funny IMO especially when I told you it's fine not to like the game.

Just don't lie about the game itself which is what you've done incessantly, or rather, you claim it's overrated and underwhelming, which I disagree with. So obviously we won't see eye to eye on this subject, why are you still here? Why am I?

Shit IDK anymore.

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Eab1990 posted...

lmao this pic has it all, including the type of dog you're brutally killing in the first half, then added in the second half as a "cuddly friend" to force the player to realize what "horrible actions we all have to do to survive".

i've never seen a more pretentious, obnoxiously written game than this.

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AsucaHayashi posted...

lmao this pic has it all, including the type of dog you're brutally killing in the first half, then added in the second half as a "cuddly friend" to force the player to realize what "horrible actions we all have to do to survive".

i've never seen a more pretentious, obnoxiously written game than this.

This image completely misrepresents the game.

The only people talking about Ellie being gay, is uh... the people who hated the game and Seth at the beginning who was drunk and gave her some steak sandwiches as an apology for his behavior the previous night.

Every single flashback sequence is filled with the good stuff that happens in that world, so the entire game isn't just a depressing morally grey situation.

It's almost as if... people didn't play the game because they hated the leak.

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Yazarogi posted...

Just don't lie about the game itself which is what you've done incessantly,

I haven't lied about a thing. I've pointed out frankly quite basic things that have all been ignored

or rather, you claim it's overrated

I never claimed that

nd underwhelming, which I disagree with. So obviously we won't see eye to eye on this subject, why are you still here?

Because it's a message board and we're having a discussion?

TC asked a question and now people are asking me questions

Do you want to just stand in a room full of people who agree with you and nod?

Half of big TLOU2 fans just have so little experience with media that when introduced to better things they get blown away, why do you wanna take that from them?

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I swear Ellie was gay in the first game. Dunno why people act like TLOU2 made that up

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UnfairRepresent posted...

I swear Ellie was gay in the first game. Dunno why people act like TLOU2 made that up

think they touched on it in the dlc. Dont recall seeing much during the main story.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

I haven't lied about a thing. I've pointed out frankly quite basic things that have all been ignored

I never claimed that

Because it's a message board and we're having a discussion?

TC asked a question and now people are asking me questions

Do you want to just stand in a room full of people who agree with you and nod?

Half of big TLOU2 fans just have so little experience with media that when introduced to better things they get blown away, why do you wanna take that from them?

I think art is subjective and this game wasn't your cup of tea. The gameplay isn't basic, you'd be hard pressed to find a game that has combat as good as this one. The sheer number of ways you can kill, use the environment to your advantage, etc. is amazing. The stealth is and prone mechanics is awesome. Nook and crannies you can crawl through to ambush enemies or if you want to go rambo (barring specific segments) you can.

There are flash backs which aren't filled with depressing, hateful, revenge messages. and poignant moments between characters before shit pops off.

It covers pretty much every spectrum of emotion at least once during the game, while it does focus on revenge. If you say a game like TLoU2 is bland simply because of the theme there is a whole genre of work with amazing works like The Count of Monte Cristo that you'd have to hate as well.

The characters are sufficiently fleshed out, I went from absolutely hating Abby to sympathizing with her despite not liking how the ending went, I didn't think it took away from the game. It makes sense, that Ellie finally becomes what Joel wanted for her and that's not to be like him. If that's bland and shit, IDK what a good narrative would make for you.

Also comparing it to UP is laughable, as the first game never presented itself as a happy go lucky cheery thing and neither did the sequel. The ending is ambiguous and until the 3rd game (if there is one) you can put anything you want as your own ending. Ellie goes back to Dinah and JJ, Ellie goes out to look for another group that might be able to develop a cure from her, Ellie goes out to be a hermit and never be seen again, Ellie goes out to find herself and another group essentially re-inventing herself, despite all that the ending solidifies that Ellie has finally forgiven herself for her actions toward Joel with their last few years together. God damn, how can you say that's bland and unoriginal? But you know what, its your opinion and if you like shitty transformers movies and not a rich developed story then so be it.

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Yazarogi posted...

This image completely misrepresents the game.

The only people talking about Ellie being gay

nobody really cares how the gay themes are actually handled in-game when it's presented as blatantly as part of the marketing.

https://youtu.be/pMW_sycSs30

you can't really say it was anything but fishing for brownie points.
at least nobody can fault them for not being consistent when it comes to fishing for these incredibly obnoxious cheap points across the entire game.

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AsucaHayashi posted...

nobody really cares how the gay themes are actually handled in-game when it's presented as blatantly as part of the marketing.

https://youtu.be/pMW_sycSs30

you can't really say it was anything but fishing for brownie points.
at least nobody can fault them for not being consistent when it comes to fishing for these incredibly obnoxious cheap points across the entire game.

Holy shit are you literally saying the fact there is a gay couple in the game at all means its pandering?

What fucking planet do you live on?

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Yazarogi posted...

Holy shit are you literally saying the fact there is a gay couple in the game at all means its pandering?

What fucking planet do you live on?

AsucaHayashi posted...

"apocalyptic world" and yet there's definitely no shortage of minorities in the game

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Yazarogi posted...

Holy shit are you literally saying the fact there is a gay couple in the game at all means its pandering?

What fucking planet do you live on?

did you even read what i wrote?

nobody really cares how the gay themes are actually handled in-game when it's presented as blatantly as part of the marketing.

if you want an actual example of a game that doesn't shove its brownie point themes down your throat then look no further than cyberpunk. it has a far bigger share of LGBT characters yet isn't criticized for it in the slightest.

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lww99 posted...

>can't handle it when his own logic is thrown straight back in his face.

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AsucaHayashi posted...

did you even read what i wrote?

if you want an actual example of a game that doesn't shove its brownie point themes down your throat then look no further than cyberpunk. it has a far bigger share of LGBT characters yet isn't criticized for it in the slightest.

Yea, I read what you wrote, it was homophobic as fuck.

Also, at least I could play and beat TLoU2 at release, last I checked you still can't purchase Cyberpunk digitally on consoles because of how terrible the gameplay is.

And, they did market that there would be gay relationships in the game... people knew who you would be able to fuck before the game came out, they just have a hard one for CDPR which is why the game still has people saying "tis good, and fun" when it's got so many gameplay problems it makes a 2001 game look better in comparison. Git tha fuck outta here.

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Yazarogi posted...

And, they did market that there would be gay relationships in the game... people knew who you would be able to fuck before the game came out, they just have a hard one for CDPR which is why the game still has people saying "tis good, and fun" when it's got so many gameplay problems it makes a 2001 game look better in comparison. Git tha fuck outta here.

or you know, maybe people didn't mind the representation in the game because it actually makes sense and isn't forced on you in any shape, way or form.

no, it just "HAS" to be because people have an erection for CDPR just like you apparently have a hard-on for TLOU2, that "HAS" to be it!

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literally nothing to do with their relationship but literally EVERYTHING TO DO WITH:

Eab1990 posted...

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AsucaHayashi posted...

or you know, maybe people didn't mind the representation in the game because it actually makes sense and isn't forced on you in any shape, way or form.

no, it just "HAS" to be because people have an erection for CDPR just like you apparently have a hard-on for TLOU2, that "HAS" to be it!

Actually, I've decided not to waste my breath on you anymore. You are nitpicky and bias, I win, bye bye.

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Can you explain to me how the quest for revenge for Joel has anything to do with Ellie's sexuality?

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Yazarogi posted...

Can you explain to me how the quest for revenge for Joel has anything to do with Ellie's sexuality?

ask ND since they're the ones that made the first half of a trailer showcasing ellie's sexuality on full display.

if it wasn't important they wouldn't have included it. if you yourself say it has nothing to do with ellie's "quest for revenge" then what other reason is there?

brownie points

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AsucaHayashi posted...

ask ND since they're the ones that made the first half of a trailer showcasing ellie's sexuality on full display.

So you can't? Why is showcasing a characters relationship with someone a problem, I really don't understand your argument here. It's no different then showing the Day's Gone protagonist getting married to his girlfriend.

https://youtu.be/FKtaOY9lMvM?t=27

duhhhhh the whole game bout da sexuulity dueerrrr

git tha fuck outta here

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https://youtu.be/S1EqciwkyJU
FUCK THIS GAME PUSHING A STRAIGHT AGENDA

do you realize how fucking stupid you sound now?

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Yazarogi posted...

https://youtu.be/S1EqciwkyJU
FUCK THIS GAME PUSHING A STRAIGHT AGENDA

do you realize how fucking stupid you sound now?

Ehhh this is unfair

Days Gone has an entire plot that revolves around Deacon's wife and inability to come to terms with her probable death

Putting there relationship in the trailer is super relevant to the games plot

And I'm on your side BTW, who cares if Ellie is a breast girl? It's a dumb thing to be mad about. Doesn't stop her being bland

But Days Gone is not a good comparison

Would only be comparable if the plot of TLOU2 was Ellie looking for her girlfriend

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Yazarogi posted...

So you can't? Why is showcasing a characters relationship with someone a problem, I really don't understand your argument here. It's no different then showing the Day's Gone protagonist getting married to his girlfriend.

you do realize your own example works against you, right?

that shows his motivation which makes sense to include.

showcasing ellie's relationship serves absolute nothing for the motivation or the overall plot of the game which you yourself admitted:
AsucaHayashi posted...

if you yourself say it has nothing to do with ellie's "quest for revenge" then what other reason is there?

brownie points

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