Current Events > Why do people only know Holocaust but not the more deadly Holodomor?

(+) Yeah! (+)

by the Soviet Union?

also pretty ironic the Soviet Union, killer of millions of Ukrainians, are somehow the ones that liberated another genocide camp this time by the Nazis.

Also interesting to note is that the idea of Holocaust was actually because Hitler was inspired by Stalin's Holodomor.

Plenty of people know about stalin, but I definitely didn't realize it had a nefarious name behind it

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Pretty sure people do know of the holodomor

CouldBeAnAlt posted...

Pretty sure people do know of the holodomor

go ask people on the streets and your friends.

tell me about it.

some people dont even know who Hitler is. they only are familiar with the name. wtf.
at this point, forget Stalin.

People know Stalin killed a lot of people bit they don't know the name behind it is Holodomor

BignutzisBack posted...

Plenty of people know about stalin, but I definitely didn't realize it had a nefarious name behind it

Did you also know the Soviets were allied with the Nazis in the beginning? Stalin only changed sides after Hitler got greedy and decided to invade da motherland

2Pacavelli posted...

People know Stalin killed a lot of people bit they don't know the name behind it is Holodomor

I think the name has a huge impact to recognition. Knowing Stalin killed people is not the same as knowing Stalin did a genocide so drastic it has a name to it.

Mackorov posted...

Did you also know the Soviets were allied with the Nazis in the beginning? Stalin only changed sides after Hitler got greedy and decided to invade da motherland

Most people should know this as is a very basic history fact you get taught about ww2. I've no doubt many have forgotten though. I think people are aware he killed millions as well, but you are right most aren't aware is a name to some of his killings.

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Mackorov posted...

Did you also know the Soviets were allied with the Nazis in the beginning? Stalin only changed sides after Hitler got greedy and decided to invade da motherland

Most people are aware of the molotov ribbentrop pact it's one of the primary reasons hitler was able to increase the power of germany

Genuinely thought this was going to be about Game of Thrones at first.

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Because the Nazis lost the war. There were a lot of shit the Soviets did that we didnt even know about until after they fell

Well........

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theres a conspiracy going on to suppress it?

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Mackorov posted...

Also interesting to note is that the idea of Holocaust was actually because Hitler was inspired by Stalin's Holodomor.

Is that really true?

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Why are you lying about the Holodomor being deadlier?

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Apparently it was only recognized as a genocide by the Ukraine in 2005. It probably had "communist famine" status before that, which everyone knows about.

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R1masher posted...

theres a conspiracy going on to suppress it?

No. TC just has dumb friends.

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__Fiale__ posted...

Genuinely thought this was going to be about Game of Thrones at first.

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Mackorov posted...

Also interesting to note is that the idea of Holocaust was actually because Hitler was inspired by Stalin's Holodomor.

Have you seen the documentary The Soviet Story? Great documentary that goes into detail about this, and also how the Nazi camps were partly inspired by the Soviet gulags

because holodomor wasn't a targeted effort to exterminate "undesireables"

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Garioshi posted...

because holodomor wasn't a targeted effort to exterminate "undesireables"

No, they just intentionally caused a famine in Ukraine and confiscated all their food so millions starved to death and millions more died from birth defects. Kinda sounds like a genocide to me.

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coh posted...

Because the Nazis lost the war. There were a lot of shit the Soviets did that we didnt even know about until after they fell

this is part of it. We (USA) overlooked some of the USSR's shit because they were an ally at the time.

Also the holocaust was more... active. Hauling people away, shoving them in camps, and then starving them concentrated the visual aspect whereas Holodomor was more widespread and passive.
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Garioshi posted...

because holodomor wasn't a targeted effort to exterminate "undesireables"

Look up Dekulakisation

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Hitler wasn't even the one came up with the genocide. So I doubt he was inspired by the Holodomor. The idea for the "final solution to the Jewish problem" was a guy named Reinhard Heydrich.

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Mackorov posted...

go ask people on the streets and your friends.

tell me about it.

some people dont even know who Hitler is. they only are familiar with the name. wtf.
at this point, forget Stalin.

>Why does everyone remember Hitler but not stalin?

>Forget Stalin

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Mackorov posted...

Also interesting to note is that the idea of Holocaust was actually because Hitler was inspired by Stalin's Holodomor.

Rubbish. The Nazis probably took notes from Germany's own genocide of the Herero and Nama peoples of South-West Africa between 1904-07, the first genocide of the 20th century.

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Firewerx posted...

Rubbish. The Nazis probably took notes from Germany's own genocide of the Herero and Nama peoples of South-West Africa between 1904-07, the first genocide of the 20th century.

Couldnt it be both?

I think its weird how often people trying to inform of other atrocities has to make their preferred genocide be sidelined with the holocaust in a way that intentionally or not seem to be dismissive of said holocaust.
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Comparatively few people know about the Holodomor and even fewer know about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Your average person knows next to nothing about WWII except The French Surrendered, Holocaust, Hitler, Stalin, The Bombs, Good Guys and Bad Guys, Communism, Pearl Harbor, Fascists, Tanks and Planes. If you talk with a bunch of nerds only, they'll probably know a bit more since video games encourage some small amounts of historical literacy.

And no, Germany and Russia were not "allied" together. The Pact was a non-interventionalist pact that outlined new borders, and the closest thing they ever did to actually support each other militarily was some pre-war cooperative tank development in the early 1930s, and some mutually beneficial trade in 1940. Germany came much closer to an alliance with China before the war than with the Soviet Union.

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coh posted...

Couldnt it be both?

Why does it even have to be either? The idea that "Hitler only thought of exterminating the Jews because of the Holodomor" is absurd. How much was actually publicized about the details behind the Holodomor during the 1930s, other than the news that there had been "a dire bread shortage" in Ukraine and people had starved in terrible numbers? Nor did the Holodomor mirror the policies that the Nazis implemented against the Jews: segregation, deportation, ghettoization, mass shootings, mass gassings. Where's the evidence that Hitler, Himmler, or any Nazis were consciously modelling what they were doing on the Holodomor?

You can draw parallels between them, but to claim (without proof) that Hitler was directly inspired to do what he did by the Holodmor is just a back-handed attempt to somehow pin the blame for the Nazi Judeocide on Stalin.

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Pogo_Marimo posted...

Germany and Russia were not "allied" together. The Pact was a non-interventionalist pact that outlined new borders, and the closest thing they ever did to actually support each other militarily was some pre-war cooperative tank development in the early 1930s

There was a definite example of military cooperation in the first days of September 1939: at von Ribbentrop's request, which he relayed from the military, the Soviet radio station at Minsk broadcast signals to help guide German bomber crews to their targets in Poland during the invasion.

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There are a lot of things people don't know about. Similar in scope to the Holodomor and the Holocaust was the Bengal famine in 1943, of which Churchill was responsible. Superpowers have been committing unspeakable atrocities much more recently than that, which often also get downplayed or swept under the rug.

My guess why people don't know more about the Holodomor? Its classification as a genocide is so recent that the USSR wasn't even around anymore. So there's not really a need for anti-Soviet propaganda. And to my knowledge, there's not a big Ukrainian in the US diaspora as a consequence.

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You might ask why people solemnly intone the mantra "never again!" when it comes to looking back at the Holocaust -- and yet in the 75 years since the end of WWII, the reality has been "again", "again", and "again"?

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I'd say on average westerners are more familiar with Soviet famines than the Bengal famine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943?wprov=sfla1

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jews have better marketing

I dont understand how one could look at the state of the Soviet Union and think "Yeah I want that here."
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Because Stalin stuck to murdering his own citizens for the most part

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Duncanwii posted...

I dont understand how one could look at the state of the Soviet Union and think "Yeah I want that here."

Optimism. "Well, obviously some things didn't go quite right back then; but y'know, we'll learn from the mistakes and I'm pretty sure we'll get it right next time."

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Garioshi posted...

because holodomor wasn't a targeted effort to exterminate "undesireables"

....kind of was though

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Duncanwii posted...

I dont understand how one could look at the state of the Soviet Union and think "Yeah I want that here."

I agree but people who say this are way too sanguine about their own country like 99.9% of the time

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Solid Snake07 posted...

Because Stalin stuck to murdering his own citizens for the most part

And there's a perception that Stalin was an equal opportunities mass murderer; everyone in their right mind feared the knock at the door at midnight. Generally true, but some nationalities were at times singled out for harsh treatment.

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2Pacavelli posted...

People know Stalin killed a lot of people bit they don't know the name behind it is Holodomor

This

I know the history and have never heard that term before

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Firewerx posted...

And there's a perception that Stalin was an equal opportunities mass murderer; everyone in their right mind feared the knock at the door at midnight. Generally true, but some nationalities were at times singled out for harsh treatment.

Nevertheless, of the approximately 5.7 million Soviet prisoners, "3,300,000 had perished by the time the war was over." As if anticipating the counterclaim (which is supposed to alter one's appalled reaction), Evans immediately continues: "By comparison 356,687 out of about 2 million German prisoners taken by the Red Army, mostly in the later stages of the war, did not survive." Moreover, many died in Soviet camps from the same straitened circumstances the general population suffered. They starved; we starved; he, she, or it starved with happy uniformity. Even curtains at the windows grew thin.

One of the many shocks this book delivers is the readers realization that the killing is now to begin in earnest. Entire calvary brigades were now assigned the task of destroying Jews. One such group especially distinguished itself by shooting "more than 25,000 Jews in under a month." At first, executioners were not to waste bullets on women but simply to drive them into the Pripet Marshes, the greatest area of swampy woodland in Europe, where they might drown; however the Marshes were deep enough only for wading, so the women, like the men, had to be shot. The Germans were not to be slowed by these defeats. They found ravines, and in one called Babi Yar, after undressing and lying down neat rows the Jews were bulleted behind the neck to a total of 33,771.

Men cannot imagine such numbers. They can only perform them.

In some cases, Serbian prisoners would be used to collect from a fresh kill of Jews the contents of their pockets, and the soldiers would risk giving these people penknives to cut off ring finger. A handy chart, of which there are many, shows by means of variously striped shades the numbers killed in the area stretching from Vilna (248,468), from Minsk to Kursk (91,102), Kiev to Stalino (105,988) and Taganrog to Simferopol (91,678) during the years 1941-1943. Only once more shall I give in to outrage and cite another particularly instructive moment, in order to draw your attention to Hans Kruger, head of local security police in Stanislawow, Galicia, who threw a picnic for the shooters to enjoy between shootings, and oversaw the massacre, "with a bottle of vodka in one hand and a hotdog in the other..." You may think this picture is simply grotesque. There is another in which we see an officer at horrified by the sordid conditions in which some Jewish children were being held that he approved their immediate execution in order to spare them further pain. This exhibits a concern that might be expected for chickens.

Timing became important. Himmler had to bawl out one overzealous police chief in Riga who had a trainload of Berlin deportees killed too promptly...

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One side of my family went through both the Holocaust and lived in Ukraine under Stalin. Well, I say went through, but only my grandfather survived from his entire family.

Anyone trying to score weird fucking internet points actually trying to argue yeah, but Stalin/Hitler was worse can smoke my clipped cigar.

They were both responsible for the most outrageous crimes against humanity, the numbers are irrelevant.

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