Board 8 > King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) R3D3: Yujiro Hanma vs Death (SN) (High)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Welcome to the King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) Simulated Character Battle Tournament!

The game is simple. The two* listed characters are placed in an (imaginary) location with a variety of (imaginary) environments, kind of like a picture in a child's schoolbook that describes different types of geological features. Within a ten mile radius, there is an (imaginary) urban downtown, exurbs, plains, snow-clad mountains at the edge, dry plains, etc. Fighters start wherever is most appropriate for them, but feel increasingly compelled to seek out their opponent and fight. Strong-willed fighters can try to hold out in their chosen environment for longer... eventually, all will succumb and actively search for the other to battle.

To participate, just vote in bold for whichever character you believe will win. Giving reasoning is optional, but please be polite and read what others have said and carefully make your decision. I'll ping the nominators (they can opt out) to give arguments if they wish.

Results/Discussion: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/78971300

TODAY'S PARTICIPANTS:
Yujiro Hanma (Baki the Grappler)


vs

Death (Supernatural)


@Pirateking2000 @5tarscream

FIGHT

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I think Yujiro is hard countered here by the death touch thing but maybe there's something I don't know about him, beats me.

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I am confident Yujiro cannot beat Death, which leaves the deal option open to him. I don't think he'd have a problem committing genocide for Death if asked of him, but I don't know if he'd have the patience to talk or would just keep attacking until Death gets sick of him and annihilates him

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What is the deal thing about? Also wasn't it mentioned that Death got killed by his own scythe? Is that not a factor here and couldn't Yujiro just kill him with it? I forget what was in and not for this guy and his general deal. I think death touch wasn't a factor or something?


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oh yeah, death touch was banned

'oops'

I guess it depends on what he does after he realizes his punches aren't doing anything

is there ever even a point in his series where someone no-sells his punches?

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Not particularly. Like sometimes people were able to not get btfo in an instant and put up some form of a fight and it mostly just amused him though it depends I guess

Anyway though Yujiro is arrogant, he isn't foolhardy. With his weird aura sensing / projection and other stuff it'd become clear something was up with this guy. He'd likely be up for talking. He's chatted with people before. I am just unsure what other factors are in play here

If Death has his scythe weakness I am fairly confident Yujiro would be able to nab it and kill him with it. From what I can tell Death isn't really that crazy physically(?) / combat wise and he got killed by his scythe unless it was a fakeout?

Also not sure the details of this deal and what is the context with that?

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Death wins in a ton of ways. He isnt losing to a guy thats super strong.
Death can teleport himself and others anywhere, Death has a degree of precognition, Death can only be seen if he wants to be.
Im not seeing a lot of easy ways for this dude to just take Deaths scythe and kill him with it before he just dies or gets big-byed

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Death would easily win in a straight fight, but he's not a character interested in fighting. In the show he tends to make deals (willingly gave up the ring because he didn't like Lucifer, wanted Sam to kill Dean), so that's the logic I feel makes sense for his matches. He'd forfeit the match if given a convincing reason to. Would Yujiro hear and make a deal?

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NFUN posted...

Death would easily win in a straight fight, but he's not a character interested in fighting. In the show he tends to make deals (willingly gave up the ring because he didn't like Lucifer, wanted Sam to kill Dean), so that's the logic I feel makes sense for his matches. He'd forfeit the match if given a convincing reason to. Would Yujiro hear and make a deal?

Hard to say. I would think he'd hear him out but it depends how you mean. Like would Yujiro be the one requesting? I don't think so. If it was something like Death going "hey some crazy super strong demons need to be fought, think you can do it?" then Yujiro would go "that sounds pretty rad" and go have fun with that. That or some challenge that would be interesting to him or in a "overcoming the literal Grim Reaper" sorta way. He'd take something like the "be Death for 24 hours" thing as a walk in the park and he'd probably find the idea of being Death itself amusing since he already sees himself as the strongest and everyone else as "food". With ACTUAL supernatural stuff of that scale going on I would think Yujiro would at the very least be intrigued.

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google says:

He seemingly lives only to fight and cause destruction to anything and everything he can. His whole life and mindset are dedicated to nothing but fighting and growing stronger with each person he defeats, sometimes killing them. He tends to kill people if pushed or enraged enough and does not show care or remorse when doing so. He will also kill for pleasure or satisfaction when he feels like it.

[...]

During his 16th year, Yujiro was quite different from his current self. He was much calmer, less savage and not so bloodthirsty, most of the time defeating just his adversaries and destroying their vehicles. However, over the next 2 years on battlefields, Yujiro's desire to fight and bloodlust grows exponentially and mercilessly kill everyone who stands in his way, making him the man he is today.

I feel like this guy is not gonna deal
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I think Death will get annoyed before Yujiro figures out an answer, and cause something suitably permanent.

Drakeryn posted...

google says:

I feel like this guy is not gonna deal

Initiate I don't think so. Play along if Death presents it out of intrigue? I could see it. Though there is an interesting opportunity here. Yujiro definitely isn't stupid despite his arrogance and if he knows shit is funky he isn't going to go and get himself killed. Despite looking like a meathead the guy is a genius.

I could see an amusing series of events occurring if the challenge came with the scythe if he needed to actually kill him (though if Death bailing is a thing that works too)

Death: Be me for 24 hours
Yujrio: Be death? So just an average tuesday. OK Grim Reaper you're on.
(Yujiro handles it with zero issue)
Death: Huh, weird. Usually people would find that hard. Ok give it back
(Yujiro just nonchalantly kills Death. He apparently got punked by Dean with the scythe. You think he is going to be able to react to Yujiro doing at FOE speed? He also no sells any burning sensations from it as he'd consider it a tickle if anything)
Yujiro: Cool. Time to go kill some demons in hell and maybe punk lucifer and god while I'm at it.

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I'm thinking Death is gonna be chilling and not going out of his way to do anything. If attacked, he might wait it out for a bit with a "you done yet?" expression, and if the opponent gives up they'd start talking. If the opponent doesn't stop, even after being shut down once, Death will get annoyed and end them.

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So youre saying Death would lose if he decided to lose otherwise he wins? Because hed win a straight up fight and any deal would have to be initiated by him?

NFUN posted...

Fighters start wherever is most appropriate for them, but feel increasingly compelled to seek out their opponent and fight. Strong-willed fighters can try to hold out in their chosen environment for longer... eventually, all will succumb and actively search for the other to battle.

In a situation where no matter how strong willed he is he will inevitably have to seek out a battle. Why wouldnt he just annihilate Yujiro and be done with it?


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5tarscream posted...

So youre saying Death would lose if he decided to lose otherwise he wins? Because hed win a straight up fight and any deal would have to be initiated by him?

In a situation where no matter how strong willed he is he will inevitably have to seek out a battle. Why wouldnt he just annihilate Yujiro and be done with it?

Death is older than the Universe. If there's any exception to the compulsion, it's him (which is what was argued for both Deaths in their first round anyway)

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Yeah I wouldn't see Death as an exception per se, but a cosmic being is naturally going to operate on a different timescale. It's the difference between "I'll do it tomorrow" and "I'll do it next century." Obviously this is also personality-dependent - you could have a cosmic being who is rash and impetuous, or who just really loves fighting - but neither is the case here.
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didn't you come out and say "no, Death won't ignore the compulsion to fight" in Discworld's first fight? Why is that valid reasoning now?

Still not sold either way. Yujiro could win, but it needs a lot of speculating on how he'll act in the fight.

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Hard to say. Yujiro can act with sophistication so it depends just what exactly the deal with the encounter is or if this is sort of a special circumstances match

Beyond his philosophy and time spent training or fighting, Yujiro is fully capable of living in modern society. While not stated, it's shown that Yujiro has access to considerable resources most likely in the form of connections or favors from some of the most influential people in the world. Given his power and threat level, this is not surprising. Other resources also most likely include a vast personal fortune. This is very clear from the way Yujiro has demonstrated sophistication and his ability to carry himself in high society. Yujiro has sharp tastes and whenever attending places of refining or meant for the elite of society, he can blend right in by both dress and manner. Since Yujiro is the strongest in the world and sees himself as something of a king, this may be his way of trying to act in a way becoming of a king. He's also shown to be erudite, intelligent, and well-read in a wide variety of topics some of which are quite esoteric.

So he could definitely carry on a conversation with Death and Yujiro's instincts and senses would likely tip him off on the guy. It is just where do you go from there with this match? Would SN Death just offer a challenge and if Yujiro completes it then SN Death fucks off for the sake of wanting nothing to do with this given his nature? Yujiro would be intrigued by a challenge from the literal Grim Reaper and he could definitely overcome whatever task offered (which I guess is the whole do the Death job thing and don't remove the ring for a day or whatever?)

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Shonen_Bat posted...

didn't you come out and say "no, Death won't ignore the compulsion to fight" in Discworld's first fight? Why is that valid reasoning now?

Still not sold either way. Yujiro could win, but it needs a lot of speculating on how he'll act in the fight.

tbh, that was mostly because I thought the arguments that Marisa would attain immortality and they just wouldn't fight was stupid as fucking hell and as host I wanted to keep the matches moving. I think Drak's take then was best, where the Deaths *would* eventually give in... just their "eventually" correlates to a few billion years or so

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Also some extra support that discussion path for match could play out

It may be that compared to his youth, the current Yujiro has had the chance to calm his personality and temper his instincts. Perhaps as an extension of his manners and desire to project an image of sophistication, Yujiro can be a good company to anyone who has earned his respect or consideration. In these instances, he has no problem getting along with the people he has acknowledged. He accepted Baki's request for a quiet dinner together where despite Baki's resentment towards him, he admitted that he enjoyed the meal with Yujiro immensely. He's also gone out for drinks with Doppo Orochi, possibly because Doppo gave him an interesting fight in the past and managed to survive. He also rejects Kaioh title given to him by Kaku Kaioh by claiming that his feelings are enough to him. He later complimented Motobe to Musashi by claiming Motobe fights for real and is ready to do anything to win while commenting on how Motobe was being rewarded for his hard work by finally being able to face Musashi where Motobe could use all of his skills and techniques.

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I guess Yujiro gets it

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but that was the reasoning for why she couldn't do that or try to research a sealing spell for Death... I guess it doesn't matter now, but that's pretty gross

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Shonen_Bat posted...

but that was the reasoning for why she couldn't do that or try to research a sealing spell for Death... I guess it doesn't matter now, but that's pretty gross

the reasoning she can't make herself immortal is that it's fucking stupid as a strategy

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it's literally her life's goal that she's already poured a ton of research into, but sure

either way it's still "I don't like this argument so I'm changing the rules to prevent it"

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Shonen_Bat posted...

it's literally her life's goal that she's already poured a ton of research into, but sure

either way it's still "I don't like this argument so I'm changing the rules to prevent it"

Note that I only ruled that he wouldn't be immune to the compulsion, and only argued that he'd be chasing her during the match. When drak gave his aforementioned take, I didn't correct him or invalidate him as being against the rules of the match

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Death

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Pirateking2000 posted...

Perhaps as an extension of his manners and desire to project an image of sophistication, Yujiro can be a good company to anyone who has earned his respect or consideration.

All these examples are people who fight

Which makes me think he's not going to extend that respect to Death, who isn't interested in fighting and would rather cut a deal

Death
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Drakeryn posted...

All these examples are people who fight

Which makes me think he's not going to extend that respect to Death, who isn't interested in fighting and would rather cut a deal

Death

He interacts with others in general high society who aren't fighters and has chatted with other folks before. At minimum I would think the likes of Death, someone that Yujiro would likely sense something about given his sheer instincts would fall under "consideration". I could see it going into a talk but the issue is the nature of this "fight"

If Death would be up for just giving Yujiro a challenge so he could just gtfo of this because he doesn't want to be here then Yujiro would technically win since he could handle the task. If it is a straight up fight then Death wins because its Death and Yujiro doesn't have reality warping craziness / has no way to actually well KILL Death unless we bring the scythe into play

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Yujiro

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Yujiro

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I remember why I stopped following these for awhile. Its ridiculous. The argument here is literally maybe theres a way that Death decides he cant be bothered and offers Yujiro a deal instead and maybe Yujiro accepts it and maybe Yujiro completes the task and maybe the offer was that Death would leave and maybe thats how Yujiro wins.

Like, come on.

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I dunno, it sounds closer to what he would do in character than just blasting some random he doesn't care about

and tbh I'm kind of just worn out on 'Death' characters by now

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You mean like when he literally straight up insta-killed a guy for bumping into him in the street as he walked by? Or that he killed a whole restaurant at of people for being near him.
Hes Death. He isnt against killing. If Yujiro initiated the deal I could see an argument but it seems like thats not the argument. Were saying if its up to Yujiro he tries to beat Deaths ass to prove hes tougher, in this case Death absolutely insta-kills him or teleports him away for being annoying.
I do understand not liking Death as an entry or a character but anti-voting is lame. I want to see the Death vs DEATH match

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I'm of the opinion all these Death characters are kinda lame, chuck the Host as a late entry into this bracket to remove them and quietly bow out tbqqqqh

but I'm not gonna antivote cuz my apathy for this match is tremendous. Total waste of Yujiro's talents if he loses here since he's an interesting fighter, tho

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Death

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

I'm of the opinion all these Death characters are kinda lame, chuck the Host as a late entry into this bracket to remove them and quietly bow out tbqqqqh

but I'm not gonna antivote cuz my apathy for this match is tremendous. Total waste of Yujiro's talents if he loses here since he's an interesting fighter, tho

Was kind of a shame that the majority of Yujiro's matches were essentially "non fights". At least his match with Rand was sorta neat.

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yes, and in supernatural death killed sam and dean as soon as he saw them so they couldnt restrain him and also destroyed chicago with a hurricane and killed everybody on earth and also sent dean to the neverrealm five seasons later in order to prevent the darkness from being released and killed sam himself for fun instead of telling dean to do it for his own satisfaction because supernatural's death just likes murder and never resents manipulation and just finds murder satisfying.

allow me to recap what actually happened in case you forgot:
1. Death didn't off Sam and Dean when they first confronted him because he hated being told who to kill
2. Death made a deal with Dean that he would free Sam in exchange for Dean being Death for a day
3. Death made a deal with Dean that he would isolate Dean in exchange for Dean killing Sam

Death had no deep metaphysical motivation to have Dean be Death for a day; he does it essentially to teach an aesop. Death had no deep metaphysical motivation to have Dean kill Sam; he does it essentially because it'd be entertaining. Supernatural's Death is capricious and spitefully independent. If he wakes up one day in a foreign place for the purpose of killing some rando, he's not going to do it without being forced because nobody is his master. This is in his character. He's effectively as old as the Universe, and he'd surely be fine to wait there for a virtual eternity. This is what he is. When he meets his opponent, he may kill them if they're annoying, but he wouldn't have a reason to zap them right away. He's patient, and likes to talk. This is in his character. As he has before, he'd be happy to make a deal to fulfill some cosmic irony or for his own entertainment. This is in his character. And as far as deals go, Hanma would probably be one of the most capable characters in the bracket in regards to fulfilling it, seeing as Death's deals are destructive.

Death is more likely to stubbornly resist, as the ultimate force in the Universe that believes he will eventually kill God, killing his opponent because he was told to than to just wipe them out. And him then making a deal pretty much falls under his MO.

Or, we could instead ignore any consideration of how Death acts in the show, act as if he's some emotionless, mindless force of entropy, and have endless discussions about whether he could kill <x> character, because trying to reconcile statements such as "The Darkness is the only thing that Death cannot kill" between franchises is definitely productive and worth our time. We already have the Darkness as a character. I think stretching to make Death another filler of that vaunted niche is not in anybody's best interest.

tldr; put up or shut up

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