Current Events > If you're not leftist/socialist, why?

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Keith_Valentine posted...

We do have welfare.

I totally agree. US first, second and third.

So if the US stops maintaining an empire overseas you would be okay with that spending going toward social welfare to benefit America citizens?

And the American welfare system is a joke. It has the same percentage of homeless as China. Every other first world country is doing much better. You should really strive to do better than a country where labor unions are illegal and you can be evicted for being the wrong skin color. I mean actually the US is barely a step above that in many places.

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Like what's the criteria here

There are a lot more social welfare states now than there were in the late 1800s. I'm not saying there have been none throughout history, but the development of modern systems to redistribute wealth are pretty impressive even though they're flawed. As far as modern welfare states go we went from one to dozens in a hundred years or so

It could change in the future because it's been increasing in the recent past?

I don't think this proves my side but I don't know what would count as proof either

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Godnorgosh posted...

It seems absurd to defend the social welfare state specifically under the umbrella of a system that, in the long term, doesn't enable them to exist and thrive.

But I don't think you can craft a 'system' that dictates the path of humanity. I haven't accepted the idea that we live under some global hegemonic socioeconomic system. You'll notice I haven't used the word capitalism myself

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ssjevot posted...

So if the US stops maintaining an empire overseas you would be okay with that spending going toward social welfare to benefit America citizens?

And the American welfare system is a joke. It has the same percentage of homeless as China. Every other first world country is doing much better. You should really strive to do better than a country where labor unions are illegal and you can be evicted for being the wrong skin color. I mean actually the US is barely a step above that in many places.

Yes. Yes. Yes. No EMPIRE.

American welfare is a joke ... lul. As it supports tens of millions of non working and handicapped people . worse than every first world? It would ve interesting to see what other countries did we all the psychopath criminals we have here .

Okie dokie buddy. Were practically ccp China right? Where u from?

Keith_Valentine posted...

Yes. Yes. Yes. No EMPIRE.

American welfare is a joke ... lul. As it supports tens of millions of non working and handicapped people . worse than every first world? It would ve interesting to see what other countries did we all the psychopath criminals we have here .

Okie dokie buddy. Were practically ccp China right? Where u from?

Originally from America. Live in Japan now. And have you ever considered the criminality in America is because of the system in America? I mean is your theory that Americans are just inherently more violent and criminal than other people or is the society itself possibly the cause? And yes welfare spending in America, for a country you love going on about being the richest in the world, is very low compared to all other first world countries not withstanding healthcare which costs far more than any other country and again is related to the system in America. Since you love America and want things America first, you should want America to have more affordable healthcare, better social services, less crime, and less prisoners than other first world countries. You should be outraged it is doing worse and demand more from your government. Instead you seem to want to defend things being bad and come up with excuses rather than improve things.

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For example, I recently read an article that argued anarchic societies generate a lot more wealth and happiness than you'd expect - more than statist societies when you control for various factors - but they're very vulnerable to external predation

I feel like that's the argument socialists often make, actually, about why socialist societies don't last. But that is an example of how something can be great but be inherently unstable

Again idk if that applies to socialism in fact but if you can ask me 'why not more welfare states?' I think the answer to 'why not more socialism?' can't plea to something like oh America sucks. If there's one global system, that's all endogenous. If we're not part of one global system it becomes harder to blame capitalism for everything

Jmo

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Balrog0 posted...

I have no respect for your understanding of reality, sorry man

capitalism fundamentally requires a class of people who are exploited and a class of people to do the exploiting. any programs that help the former can and will be fought against by the latter. welfare states are not permanent.

feel free to gloat in 200 years if I'm proven wrong

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I mean, hardcore Marxism seems a lot like hardcore Christianity to me. They're both eschatological and originally were interpreted as relatively near term predictions, but just like people are still waiting for Jesus even though he definitely ain't coming you would still be waiting for the collapse of capitalism in 200 years whether or not you are obviously wrong at that point

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lol. where the hell did you get the idea that marxism was eschatological?

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averagejoel posted...

lol. where the hell did you get the idea that marxism was eschatological?

Book learning in college

https://www.jstor.org/stable/201887

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Godnorgosh posted...

That's... one argued interpretation of Marxism, but by no means an end-all

Yep, very few things are conclusively agreed on in social science or history etc

Still a person who cared about his positions and them actually being true might at least be familiar with pretty common arguments about it

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Though to be clear I am comparing marxists to pre-modern Christianity. Early Christians believed that the end of times was a real, physical event that was coming soon, brought about by actual forces in the world.

They had a different conception of the relationship between the body and the spirit than we too. I mean this is way before Cartesian duality

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Keith_Valentine posted...

You sure? I think were still the greatest economy in the world. Maybe you want to compare us to a Nordic countey with s standard of living of a homogenous white population , a fraction of the people who arent inundated with violence and sex like we are?

I love how often I hear this stupid argument on this board

"We can't do what they did because we have black people"

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I love how often I hear this stupid argument on this board

"We can't do what they did because we have black people"

Not too long ago they would talk a lot about how Muslims were ruining Europe too as 'proof' of their racist logic

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Darklit_Minuet posted...

I love how often I hear this stupid argument on this board

"We can't do what they did because we have black people"

well it can't be that the policies are wrong. no... stuff is bad because of the moral failings of certain races or religions

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Capitalism violently crashes once every few years and gets bailed out by daddy govt. Without this constant maintenance we'd def not still be around. This pandemic would've made 50%+ of people homeless overnight under capitalism if it weren't for the brrrr machine. Or caused no shut down and just killed way more people leading to a self shutdown.

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foreverzero212 posted...

Capitalism violently crashes once every few years and gets bailed out by daddy govt. Without this constant maintenance we'd def not still be around. This pandemic would've made 50%+ of people homeless overnight under capitalism if it weren't for the brrrr machine. Or caused no shut down and just killed way more people leading to a self shutdown.

"We handle fluctuations in the business cycle really well" is not the indictment of capitalism you think it is. Especially compared to collectivist systems that offer nothing but continuous misery even in the "good" times.

This is the first economic contraction we've had in 10+ years btw and it's due to a pandemic so "violently crashes every few years" might be a little dramatic.

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I love how often I hear this stupid argument on this board

"We can't do what they did because we have black people"

If Keith werent already Purgd, this post of yours would have likely triggered a response from him that got him Purgd.

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REMercsChamp posted...

I'm seeing a lot of leftists/socialists these days are on the wrong side of society - criminal records, in prisons, dropped out of high school and can't get a job etc. of course they want to turn it all upside down to more favorable conditions for them. I hear these people calling for abolishing police, prisons, just give everyone free money

That's kinda where I'm it.

I come across so many radical socialist/communist types who are social rejects, are mentally ill, and are too untrustworthy and incompetent to be trusted to run a hotdog stand.

That doesn't mean that they're ALL like that, but there sure are a lot of them.

Like this freakshow right here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORexz50z5hI

Ozovzk posted...

i have those things + compassion

Read the Gulag archipelago, dude won a Nobel for that
If you don't have the patience to read a 1800 page book, you shouldn't be making this argument

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I don't know if its worth getting into the topic at this point. But I have some positions that could be regarded as left leaning, but I also have right leaning positions. So, I don't really know where that would put me.

awesome999 posted...

Read the Gulag archipelago, dude won a Nobel for that
If you don't have the patience to read a 1800 page book, you shouldn't be making this argument

the Gulag Archipelago is campfire stories

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how the fuck is joel not banned yet?

Broseph_Stalin posted...

how the fuck is joel not banned yet?

Says the dude literally promoting neoliberalism.

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ah yes denying genocide is absolutely the same thing as people being lifted out of poverty I see your favorite youtube grifters have trained you well

Broseph_Stalin posted...

ah yes denying genocide is absolutely the same thing as people being lifted out of poverty I see your favorite youtube grifters have trained you well

You should recall, Joel did say the families of the very wealthy should be killed. It was specifically the family that owns Walmart. It was in a topic years ago, but somehow I still remember it.

averagejoel posted...

the Gulag Archipelago is campfire stories

Yeah and these are forgeries made to fool the West on how terrible the Soviet Union was doing so that they would have the head start on the communist utopia
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2501517/pictures-human-body-parts-cannibals-russian-famine-1921-1922/

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Uh, the Waltons are demons who have cause untold misery and financial stress across the entirety of America ($400,000 in taxpayer dollars per year PER Walmart store). I dont agree they should be killed but their atrocities should absolutely be stopped.

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Shablagoo posted...

their atrocities

when you think the holodomor didn't happen but walmart is an atrocity

Esrac posted...

You should recall, Joel did say the families of the very wealthy should be killed. It was specifically the family that owns Walmart. It was in a topic years ago, but somehow I still remember it.

He also said multiple genocides didn't happen. And if you question him on them he won't respond because he knows he will get modded. Just ask him if the Holodomer was a genocide. People should just stop responding to him because mods aren't going to take action and responding to him legitimizes his views. That multiple other people feel a need to stand up for him and his views is also sad. If they are actually leftist they should realize having genocide deniers praising dictators on their side isn't going to be winning them mass appeal.

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Because I've lived in a country ruled by the left for 2/3rds of my life. I have over 30 relatives living in other countries due to political, social and economic issues that forced them to migrate. I've seen them destroy industries by the thousands, steal money, deal drugs, give away our resources, and so on.

The only people that enjoy living in a socialist country, are those that are currently living in a capitalist country.

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ssjevot posted...

He also said multiple genocides didn't happen. And if you question him on them he won't respond because he knows he will get modded. Just ask him if the Holodomer was a genocide. People should just stop responding to him because mods aren't going to take action and responding to him legitimizes his views. That multiple other people feel a need to stand up for him and his views is also sad. If they are actually leftist they should realize having genocide deniers praising dictators on their side isn't going to be winning them mass appeal.

There was another topic on here recently, on which he excuses the lack of real socialist society existing being due to the US military suppressing it. Fair enough, we are a mostly capitalist country and we used our military to fight the red menace, but of course he didn't think of those communist countries as being truly socialist.

So, I ask him which country was practicing true socialism, when the US came by to kick it over. He refused to acknowledge the question, because it isn't just about countries that already had it, because the US would intervene before it was established.

So, I asked which ones were working toward true socialism before the US kicked it over. He refused to acknowledge the question again and just moves the goal posts. Said something irrelevant about Cuba and then disappeared from the topic.

If he ever did answer the question before the topic was purged, I didn't see it.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

when you think the holodomor didn't happen but walmart is an atrocity

Ive never denied the Holodomor. We were talking about Walmart. Keep up with the conversation, friend, lest you make a fool of yourself.

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Esrac posted...

he excuses the lack of real socialist society existing being due to the US military suppressing it.

Esrac posted...

He refused to acknowledge the question again and just moves the goal posts.

this is rich. your entire line of questioning in that topic was nothing but moving the goalposts

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averagejoel posted...

this is rich. your entire line of questioning in that topic was nothing but moving the goalposts

Oh, fuck off.

I asked you which true socialist state the US toppled and you wouldn't answer.

So, I asked which true socialist state was in progress before the US prevented it and you wouldn't answer.

I was literally giving you more leeway to answer, but you just evaded the question. If I was moving the goalposts at all, it was moving them closer so you could more easily score a point.

If the US military is actively suppressing the formation of a true socialist state, then you must have some examples.

Esrac posted...

which ones were working toward true socialism before the US kicked it over

leftists seemingly always give a blind eye to the jamahiriya - both a socialist state and the most prosperous country in africa at the time, bombed out of existence by the us and france under the guise of humanitarian intervention during civil strife, its opposition receiving logistical support from us interests

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So if someone finally wants to be able to follow and participate in conversations such as these, where is the absolute easiest-to-digest starting point? Like, gateway reading material for someone soft in the head

TheMikh posted...

leftists seemingly always give a blind eye to the jamahiriya - both a socialist state and the most prosperous country in africa at the time, bombed out of existence by the us and france under the guise of humanitarian intervention during civil strife, its opposition receiving logistical support from us interests

The one lead by Gaddafi?

Esrac posted...

The one lead by Gaddafi?

yes

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Because it's extremist, violent, and the leaders have a lot of ideas that are unfeasible for the US, same reason why I'm not far right.
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TheMikh posted...

yes

Well, I guess that is one example. Can see why they might not want to immediately acknowledge it, but okay.

Esrac posted...

If I was moving the goalposts at all, it was moving them closer so you could more easily score a point.

the issue is that you moved them too far away to begin with. it suggests to me that you weren't approaching it as a legitimate issue, but looking for some sort of "gotcha"

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averagejoel posted...

the issue is that you moved them too far away to begin with. it suggests to me that you weren't approaching it as a legitimate issue, but looking for some sort of "gotcha"

You can just say you didn't have any examples, dude. It's okay.

No idea why people act like the entire country didn't rise up against Gaddafi but whatever.

Lysandear posted...

So if someone finally wants to be able to follow and participate in conversations such as these, where is the absolute easiest-to-digest starting point? Like, gateway reading material for someone soft in the head

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail

Esrac posted...

You can just say you didn't have any examples, dude. It's okay.

if I had no examples, it would be the fault of your question. if you want to seem like you're engaging with the things I'm saying, learn to ask better ones.

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averagejoel posted...

if I had no examples, it would be the fault of your question. if you want to seem like you're engaging with the things I'm saying, learn to ask better ones.

Ha ha.

Yeah, sure, okay. Great obfuscation there, dude. I guess its an alternative to admitting you had no answers.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

No idea why people act like the entire country didn't rise up against Gaddafi but whatever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail

i'd prefer material from someone who isn't considered a goon who ignores arguments in favor of baseless insults, but if someone vouches for this guy's rec then i'll start here.