Current Events > ...I think Miyamoto's stance on stories in games might have merit.

(+) Yeah! (+)

And it sickens me to even say that.

If you don't know, Shigeru Miyamoto is a very staunch believer that games don't need story to be good, to the point he has outright excised the story in some of the games he's involved with, and even some he's not. I've been dabbling with making a game or games of my own recently, and as I do and think about it, I've noticed that he may have a point.

I've noticed that there are three things that go into making a game; the Presentation, which includes the graphics, music, aesthetic, etc; the Gameplay, which includes the literal gameplay itself, the coding, all the technical stuff; and the Writing, which includes the story, the world-building, etc.

Of the three, I feel I am the strongest at the Writing aspect. I'm not an artist in any sense of the word, and my attempts at coding have fallen flat. And this has caused me to notice that, while most tell you to play to your best strength... the Writing doesn't seem to be the dealbreaker in anything.

The Presentation will catch a potential player's eye and get them to try it. The Gameplay will keep the player around. And the Writing can bolster both.

But that's ALL good Writing cane do.

Bad Presentation and Gameplay will outright turn players away, while bad Writing can be ignored. And it doesn't matter HOW good the Writing is, it can't save a game with bad Presentation or Gameplay.

A game with good Presentation, Gameplay and Writing is a good game.
A game with good Presentation and Gameplay but bad Writing is still a good game.
A game with bad Presentation or Gameplay but good Writing is a bad game.

...just feels bad to admit it.

---

Not all games need a story but a good story helps.

---

I can really count on one hand the number of games that I considered to have a really good story that I've played. Most are decent story-wise but fun to play so who cares?

I'll easily take a game with fun combat mechanics and an interesting world to explore over a game with a good story any day of the week.

---

OG Nier and Deadly Premonition are both great games solely because of the writing

---

Yup. Story should be a secondary concern. There's nothing to be gained from a bad game with a good story that couldn't have been made better with a movie, a TV series or a book.

Part of the reason I'm really looking forward to that TLoU Prime series lol.

---

miyamoto is a hack so who cares what he says

Blue_Inigo posted...

Deadly Premonition

I never understood the praise some people give this game. It was a huge meh and the story wasnt that great

---

Of course a game doesn't require a story to be good, but there are a huge variation in genres of games and some of them story is vital to. Games like Danganronpa or 999 could have great presentation and puzzles or whatever but if the story sucks, nobody is going to keep playing.

I think people should make the games they want to make and the medium doesn't need to be limited in anyway.

Miyamoto wants to make different games than Kojima. That's fine.

---

in the words of reggie: if it's not fun, why bother?

---

Darmik posted...

I think people should make the games they want to make and the medium doesn't need to be limited in anyway.

Miyamoto wants to make different games than Kojima. That's fine.

Sometimes just wanting to make a game isn't enough.

---

Entirely depends on the game. A platformer doesn't need a great story to be a great game but a visual novel definitely does. Or if it's something like a third person action game it needs to lie somewhere in the middle.
---

DK9292 posted...

Sometimes just wanting to make a game isn't enough.

And sometimes you make Mario and Zelda.

---

Lost_All_Senses posted...

And sometimes you make Mario and Zelda.

Which proves my point.

---

Eh the mario rpgs are a clear counterpoint. but the earlier ones definitely didn't let the game play interfere.

---

ImAMarvel posted...

Smashingpmkns posted...

Or if it's something like a third person action game it needs to lie somewhere in the middle.

Ninja Gaiden Black and Bayonetta 1 having terrible stories don't stop them from being two of the greatest games ever made.

True true. I was thinking more along the lines of western releases like AssCreed and other open world like games though where both the gameplay and the story are like right in the middle of being considered good. Whatever genre that is lol
---

It's entirely dependent on the game. Mario Odyssey would be slogged down by ten hours of story cutscenes. Paper Mario SS being gutted was a mockery.

DK9292 posted...

Sometimes just wanting to make a game isn't enough.

Ok but that has nothing to do with the game you want to make. Many people have made terrible games with no story. A story doesn't automatically mean bad gameplay and good gameplay doesn't mean a bad story.

Games are rarely made by one person these days (and if it is that one person needs to be good at many different things). They're made by teams of people who all work towards the one goal who all have their lanes they're strong with. There's a shitload of different things that lead to whether or not a game is good and I don't think there's a consistent rule.

---

if a games writing is good then by all means have all the story you want.

the problem is 95% of games have garbage writing and yet force you to slow down and watch their stinky ass story every couple minutes

---

Miyamoto's stance is kinda bullshit. The most renowned Zelda games have great narratives. Ocarina of Time's narrative was so impactful that it holds control over all the future narratives of Zelda games. Link's Awakening is a good game, but its crazy story is what pushes it so high up in terms of renown.

Zelda games with bad or no stories are always the worst ones.

---

DK9292 posted...

Which proves my point.

Oh. I wasn't paying that much attention.

I usually want a game with a lot of story or next to none. The majority of the games that fall between usually aren't as good. I absolutely hate when games set up an interesting story through long scenes and then stick 20 hours of gameplay in-between the pieces of the main story. Either have a flowing story or just set up a simple reason why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm not gonna care anymore when it's a week later and 20 hours of irrelevant tasks distracted me.

---

It depends on what you're trying to create

A super successful AAA game that will make millions?

Yeah the story doesnt matter one bit.

But the idea that a video game with a strong story and/or good art design can't be good is comical. The sheer popularity of Adventure Games and Walking Simulators proved that

Nobody played Tales of Monkey Island or Life Is Strange for the amazing gameplay.

Take away the story of Mass Effect and it's just a generic shooter
---

Darmik posted...

Ok but that has nothing to do with the game you want to make. Many people have made terrible games with no story. A story doesn't automatically mean bad gameplay and good gameplay doesn't mean a bad story.

Games are rarely made by one person these days (and if it is that one person needs to be good at many different things). They're made by teams of people who all work towards the one goal who all have their lanes they're strong with.

Then what exactly am I supposed to do? If I can't git gud at art or programming, I'm essentially superfluous to game development. I'm the "idea guy", the absolute worst kind of person when it comes to these kinds of projects.

---

Banjo Kazooie and DK64 would be much better without the story, or at least excising most of it. A Hat in Time is much better because of its story.
It's probably better for the gameplay to get in the way of the story than the story getting in the way of the gameplay.

Edit: Reread your posts.
I know a girl with a degree in "gamr design", with a focus in writing. She does not work in that field, but she has gotten work in it. Learn Unity or RPG maker or Pygame or something. If your goal is to design a game then you're going to have to learn to make one.

---

when was the last time Miyamoto made a good game?

Here's the latest excerpt on what Miyamoto says about a story anyway

https://time.com/4668908/nintendo-switch-miyamoto-interview/

Ive read you werent a fan of story-heavy games early in your career. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild is clearly more story-driven than the franchises earliest installments. What are your thoughts these days on story in games?
Let me start off by saying that Mr. Aonuma [Eiji Aonuma, the games producer] and his team, instead of creating a game where youre playing the story, you yourself are embarking on an adventure, and I think theyve found a unique way to strike a balance between the story and the fact that youre on an adventure. Its not that I dont like story, that Im denying the importance of story. I think after someone has played a game, its important that a story lingers in their mind. But what I do think is a challenge, is to cut down on playtime to set up and explain a story thats already been set.

I think whats important, especially for the Zelda series, is for the person to be able to think it through for themselves, and to really live the story. I think thats the challenge weve been working on through the many iterations of The Legend of Zelda. And so in this game, while youre playing, you start to kind of dig the narrative out and see the overarching story that lies in the background.

And so I think the story in Breath of the Wild still doesnt break the balance thats been established in previous Zelda games. But we also wanted to make a game where, after someone is done playing, their own experience in that game is what the story is, and I think weve been able to accomplish that with this title. And really in this game, everybody can take very, very different routes and approaches. How long it takes to beat the game has a huge range.

I think the thing with Miyamoto is that a lot of the stuff he says is either translated weird or taken out of context. I'm pretty sure he specifically thinks Mario shouldn't have much of a story because he sees it like a Popeye cartoon.

DK9292 posted...

Then what exactly am I supposed to do? If I can't git gud at art or programming, I'm essentially superfluous to game development. I'm the "idea guy", the absolute worst kind of person when it comes to these kinds of projects.

A writer isn't an idea guy. They're the writer. Look up who wrote the games you like and see what their experience and resume is.

---

fohstick posted...

when was the last time Miyamoto made a good game?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto_gameography

Darmik posted...

Here's the latest excerpt on what Miyamoto says about a story anyway

https://time.com/4668908/nintendo-switch-miyamoto-interview/

I think the thing with Miyamoto is that a lot of the stuff he says is either translated weird or taken out of context. I'm pretty sure he specifically thinks Mario shouldn't have much of a story because he sees it like a Popeye cartoon.

He made the Zelda team drop the story of at least one of their games.

Darmik posted...

A writer isn't an idea guy. They're the writer. Look up who wrote the games you like and see what their experience and resume is.

In the grand scheme of things, I might as well be. That's what I'm saying; writing isn't as important as everything else. No one will want to help make a game because of the story, but that's the only reason I want to make games.

---

Depends on the kind of game. An Ace Attorney game with a bad story can't be good.

---

If you're a writer, write. If you get hired to write video games, that's gravy. If you want to be the "idea guy" you need to at least come up with some gameplay as well.

---

DK9292 posted...

Then what exactly am I supposed to do? If I can't git gud at art or programming, I'm essentially superfluous to game development. I'm the "idea guy", the absolute worst kind of person when it comes to these kinds of projects.

You realize there's a lot more to game development than "art or programming" right?

There's animation, concept art, rigging, modelling, mocap/layout, production, technical directors, designers, ui design, writers, IT, sound design, testing, QA etc and so much more.

If you're good at organisation and can keep track of people and jobs production manager is one of the most useful jobs.
---

DK9292 posted...

He made the Zelda team drop the story of at least one of their games.

Which one?

DK9292 posted...

In the grand scheme of things, I might as well be. That's what I'm saying; writing isn't as important as everything else. No one will want to help make a game because of the story, but that's the only reason I want to make games.

Nobody plays a game because of the soundtrack and yet many games have fantastic ones that add to the overall experience. What is important to a game depends on the game.

---

ChocoboMogALT posted...

If you're a writer, write.

It's not that simple.

LightningAce11 posted...

You realize there's a lot more to game development than "art or programming" right?

There's animation, concept art, rigging, modelling, mocap/layout, production, technical directors, designers, ui design, writers, IT, sound design, testing, QA etc and so much more.

I explained in the OP that I was simplifying most of those down to the three base concepts. The presentation stuff, the technical stuff, and the narrative (good word that) stuff.

LightningAce11 posted...

If you're good at organisation and can keep track of people and jobs production manager is one of the most useful jobs.

I have zero managerial experience. It's part of the reason I want to do it all myself so badly. But I lack the talent to do that.

So I suppose I'm fucked either way.

Darmik posted...

Which one?

Four Swords Adventures.

Darmik posted...

Nobody plays a game because of the soundtrack and yet many games have fantastic ones that add to the overall experience. What is important to a game depends on the game.

I disagree. The soundtrack is one of the elements that can make or break a game.

---

Games can be good solely because of story

They also can be good with no story at all

---

text only adventure games disagree with you

---

DK9292 posted...

It's not that simple.

Why not? If you're a writer that's what you need to focus on.

From what I remember Naughty Dog hired a writer who wrote for HBO. Studios are looking for writers. Writers can jump around between different projects so that thing about not being 'essential' can also be a benefit.

DK9292 posted...

I have zero managerial experience. It's part of the reason I want to do it all myself so badly. But I lack the talent to do that.

In order to develop a game entirely by yourself you need to;

• Know how to code
• Know how to design characters
• Know how to compose music
• Know how to use the tools to develop a video game
• Be a good level/gameplay designer

And I'm probably missing numerous things.

Nobody is born with that talent either. They worked hard and spent a shitload of time learning how to do it.

---

The biggest thing vfx/game companies look for is your attitude. If you're a decent person who admits mistakes and is always willing to learn, but you're just an ok artist, they will hire you over someone with fantastic art who is difficult to work with every time.
---

DarkRoast posted...

Games can be good solely because of story

Name a game with bad presentation/graphics/art/whatever and with bad gameplay that is still considered good because of the story.

Seriously. If one exists, I want to know. I want to learn from it.

BlackHorse6969 posted...

text only adventure games disagree with you

No text only adventure game will ever compare to the immense success of Zelda, Final Fantasy, etc.

Darmik posted...

Why not? If you're a writer that's what you need to focus on.

From what I remember Naughty Dog hired a writer who wrote for HBO. Studios are looking for writers. Writers can jump around between different projects so that thing about not being 'essential' can also be a benefit.

That's like saying that because I'm a writer and Steven King is a writer, I'm on par with Steven King.

Darmik posted...

In order to develop a game entirely by yourself you need to;
Know how to code
Know how to design characters
Know how to compose music
Know how to use the tools to develop a video game
Be a good level/gameplay designer
And I'm probably missing numerous things.

I'm aware. It's why I'm very rapidly losing hope.

Darmik posted...

Nobody is born with that talent either.

False.

---

DK9292 posted...

That's like saying that because I'm a writer and Steven King is a writer, I'm on par with Steven King.

No it isn't. Have you focused as hard on your writing career as Steven King ever did?

DK9292 posted...

False.

lol what? Do you think people woke up with the ability to code? How long did you try for?

---

LightningAce11 posted...

The biggest thing vfx/game companies look for is your attitude. If you're a decent person who admits mistakes and is always willing to learn, but you're just an ok artist, they will hire you over someone with fantastic art who is difficult to work with every time.

With the amount of times I've been praised for my attitude but still cast aside for my mistakes or lack of results, vs all the stories of people who are roaring successes in their industries despite being absolutely toxic to work with, that's just an out-and-out lie.

...maybe my problem is I'm not being enough of an asshole.

---

FFX is one of my favourite games but I still don't fully understand the story with the Fayth and Yu Yevon and all that shit. Too confusing

---

Darmik posted...

No it isn't. Have you focused as hard on your writing career as Steven King ever did?

Yes it is. You're implying that because professional writers are being hired by game studios, an amateur like me has a chance that's not how it fucking works.

Darmik posted...

lol what? Do you think people woke up with the ability to code? How long did you try for?

About six-seven years.

---

I'm going to bed. I should've guessed this topic would end with me being lectured and accused of "not putting the effort in" or the usual shit.

---

DK9292 posted...

Yes it is. You're implying that because professional writers are being hired by game studios, an amateur like me has a chance that's not how it fucking works.

That isn't what I said.

Darmik posted...

They're the writer. Look up who wrote the games you like and see what their experience and resume is.

If you're an amateur writer that's what you should focus on improving so you're worth a hire. Until then no you aren't worth hiring because you literally offer game studios nothing.

DK9292 posted...

About six-seven years.

Sounds more like it wasn't for you rather than lack of talent.

---

For certain genres it does, but others, particularly long(30hrs) text heavy games like RPGs it just doeasnt work. The paper mario games post super being a good example. Crappy, straight forward story, zero plot twist, no interesting new villains, or party members, NPCs are all toads, etc.

And no amount of good writing, humor can make up for it. This all on top of the core games being garbage.

---

The older i get, the less story matters to me in games. Even games praised for their stories rarely have "good" stories imo.

Then when you think about all the incredible nintendo games and like none of them have any story.

---

DK9292 posted...

I'm going to bed. I should've guessed this topic would end with me being lectured and accused of "not putting the effort in" or the usual shit.

I don't think that's the problem here. Not everyone is born talented and not everyone is going to be good at something no matter how hard they try. Maybe coding isn't for you. I've had to try coding for an internship and it definitely wasn't for me. Doesn't mean I gave up or didn't try hard enough.

If you want to get into game development, there are so many different jobs involved. You don't have to code or be an artist or be a writer to be hired for game development. It's just not that simple. I know you wanted to break it down into three main categories but you cannot do that. It's a very in depth and complicated process. You talk about how you're not good enough to code or do art and how you're an amateur writer. Have you ever thought about voice acting or management or QA testing or whatever?

There are so many opportunities and you do have to work for it. Sometimes, things don't work out how you'd like them to and that's okay. Use those moments as learning experiences or motivation. Nobody in this topic has lectured you. They're just explaining the process to you. Think of it as a way of helping you out. Of course, you may not like what we have to say since it challenges your made up mind but it's on you to try and grow.

---

You can look up Obsidian's requirements for a narrative designer and you don't need to be a coder for it.

https://www.obsidian.net/jobs/open-positions/design/narrative-designer

What you do need is experience working on another game. But of course you would for a studio like this.

There are a shitload of games being developed right now. If you truly want to break into the industry you'll need to network and go for places that don't mind having an amateur writer and go from there. I live in Sydney and I just found a video game company looking for a writer and they don't need experience. No guarantee you'd be hired there but if it was that easy most people on CE would write for games.

There are plenty of reasons why this might not be realistic for you. Including simply not being able to afford the risk of doing it or simply not living in the right place.

What isn't an excuse is writing not being important to the video game industry. If you want to do it bad enough there is a way.

---