Board 8 > **SPOILER TOPIC** The Last of Us Part 2 **SPOILERS**

(+) Yeah! (+)

Oh yeah, of course, that too

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Abby didn't "cold-blooded torture" Joel, she beat the shit out of him and decided not to kill him right away.

So she tortured him.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

So she tortured him.

Not any worse than you have tortured people with this topic ZING

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Abby's being defended a lot, but it's not too important for me if the game manages to make me symphasize with her or not. Although her actions are being defended a bit too much here, just because we see her perspective later on and understand her struggles doesn't mean there was even a 0.01% chance of her not killing Joel then.

I don't think it's impressive they pull this off. We're seeing two miserable characters losing everyone they care about because of each other, yeah, that's terrible. This is hardly the first thing that has pulled something off like this and I don't find it interesting. In the end I feel bad for both characters sure, but without finding any of them likeable.

I think the game made me want to get revenge and regret my decisions, similar to how the first game wanted me to want to kill fireflies and feel bad about it at the same time. Because there wasn't a part of me that wanted to kill anyone for the sake of it, it doesn't really work for me. I can see why it works for some, maybe in some alternative universe it would have worked for me too, but even so I don't think its a very interesting premise.

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Yeah, the lack of likability is a big issue for me, especially for the characters I control. I need to be able to root for what they're doing, not just feel bad for them when I deliberately do the things that make them destroy their own lives.

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Leonhart4 posted...

Yeah, the lack of likability is a big issue for me, especially for the characters I control. I need to be able to root for what they're doing, not just feel bad for them when I deliberately do the things that make them destroy their own lives.

I never understood this when there's a million games out there where you can "root" for your playable character.

I don't know if Abby is truly sympathetic or not, but honestly there should be more games that challenge gamers by forcing you to play as characters who aren't sympathetic, who you don't agree with your choices, and are forced to do things they think are wrong. And not because there's a bullshit "moral choice" system.

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TheRock1525 posted...

I never understood this when there's a million games out there where you can "root" for your playable character.

exactly, so I don't need to play this one

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There's a difference between having a sympathetic lead and needing to be able to invest yourself in the lead.

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LeonhartFour posted...

exactly, so I don't need to play this one

But you do feel the need to make a million comments about it.

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...He hasnt, though?

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He made 25 posts in this topic for a game he never intends to play.

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Oh no he's expressing his opinions in a topic discussing the game whatever shall we doooooo


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And?

Has he been crashing every topic going This game sucks!!!11one?

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Murphiroth posted...

Oh no he's expressing his opinions in a topic discussing the game whatever shall we doooooo

I, too, like to make multiple posts in a topic about a game I have never played nor intend to play.

Like, at some point what are you gaining with further discussion about something you're deliberately not going to ever have first hand experience with? I'm never going to play a Souls game. How much time do you think I would spend in a topic about the latest Souls game? Do you think 5% of the posts should be mine, when I have a combined 0% experience with that series?

It's possibly to say your peace and move on with a game. Rather than coming back to the topic over and over again to talk about the same shit.

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TheRock1525 posted...

He made 25 posts in this topic for a game he never intends to play.

And this is a problem because...?

The topic turned to "it's a shame people aren't going to play this game because the leaks don't do the game justice" so I chimed back in as to why I'm still not interested in it.

I'm glad people like it! Like I said before, it's a Naughty Dog game, so I'm sure it's well made. It's just not for me, and the creator of the game seems fine with the fact that it's not for everyone!

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TheRock1525 posted...

I, too, like to make multiple posts in a topic about a game I have never played nor intend to play.

Like, at some point what are you gaining with further discussion about something you're deliberately not going to ever have first hand experience with? I'm never going to play a Souls game. How much time do you think I would spend in a topic about the latest Souls game? Do you think 5% of the posts should be mine, when I have a combined 0% experience with that series?

I feel like trying to gauge exactly how many posts I've made in this topic in an attempt to make some grander point is a bigger waste of time

And I played the first game, so it's not quite the same as a series I have zero experience with. You definitely don't see me posting in topics about Dark Souls.

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I mean if he was bombarding other topics and trying to throw his opinions in peoples faces then Id get where youre coming from. But as it stands it seems like youre just purposely coming into this rather contained topic to be outraged.

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LeonhartFour posted...

And this is a problem because...?

You're judging interactive media without the interactive part. You're taking contextless clips out of something that represents a very small fraction of what the game actually is. And even if that's enough for you to dismiss the game, the larger point is that it seems that you want to believe it's an equally valid opinion as someone who put the time into the game.

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TheRock1525 posted...

And even if that's enough for you to dismiss the game, the larger point is that it seems that you want to believe it's an equally valid opinion as someone who put the time into the game.

It seems you want to believe that I believe that. I haven't been dismissive of anyone who likes the game.

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HashtagSEP posted...

I mean if he was bombarding other topics and trying to throw his opinions in peoples faces then Id get where youre coming from. But as it stands it seems like youre just purposely coming into this rather contained topic to be outraged.

Not outraged in the slightest. Just that when I counter one of Leon's point and he goes "well I'm not going to play it anyway" then why I should consider his opinion worth anything? What is he offering to a real discussion about the game? Keep in mind he's nowhere near as bad as Biscuit in these topics but the point largely still stands: watching a couple of youtube videos doesn't get anywhere near the experience of an actual game.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Just that when I counter one of Leon's point and he goes "well I'm not going to play it anyway" then why I should consider his opinion worth anything?

I'm not offering any opinions on the quality of the game itself. If I said it was a bad game, then sure, ignore anything I have to say.

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Im not interested in a game where you cant root for the character you play as

Is a very valid concern. Im not really sure how your point was supposed to counter his. If anything, There should be more games where you dont like your character, frankly, is the more dismissive take of the two.

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LeonhartFour posted...

It seems you want to believe that I believe that. I haven't been dismissive of anyone who likes the game.

I never said you dismissed other people.

I'm saying to come back in and say "the game doesn't make Abby sympathetic" in a game you literally did not play is trying to insert your opinion as somehow as valid as someone like Han or XIII who played to the very end. It's not that you're saying they didn't like the game, it's that you're saying that your youtube watching experience somehow holds enough merit to offer a valid response to their feelings on the game.

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TheRock1525 posted...

I'm saying to come back in and say "the game doesn't make Abby sympathetic" in a game you literally did not play is trying to insert your opinion as somehow as valid as someone like Han or XIII who played to the very end. It's not that you're saying they didn't like the game, it's that you're saying that your youtube watching experience somehow holds enough merit to offer a valid response to their feelings on the game.

It's not saying that either.

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TheRock1525 posted...

I never said you dismissed other people.

I'm saying to come back in and say "the game doesn't make Abby sympathetic" in a game you literally did not play is trying to insert your opinion as somehow as valid as someone like Han or XIII who played to the very end. It's not that you're saying they didn't like the game, it's that you're saying that your youtube watching experience somehow holds enough merit to offer a valid response to their feelings on the game.

I mean, it is? This is the internet. Hes allowed to give his impressions. This isnt some no gurlz aloud situation where its you must have played x amount to give an opinion.

He never acted like his opinion was better than theirs. But hes allowed to talk about his impressions of what he has seen. Just as theyre allowed to reply to his posts and explain to him where he is wrong.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Im not interested in a game where you cant root for the character you play as

Which he really doesn't know that. He thinks he does but he really doesn't.

HashtagSEP posted...

Is a very valid concern. Im not really sure how your point was supposed to counter his. If anything, There should be more games where you dont like your character, frankly, is the more dismissive take of the two.

Some of the greatest media ever created involved unlikable, unsympathetic protagonists. It's not odd at all that gaming should occasionally follow that route.

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I mean, I never even said Abby isn't sympathetic. My point was that just being sympathetic wouldn't be enough for me (two key words) if she's still not likable because they aren't the same thing. I can't get invested in someone ruining their own life through a series of bad decisions if the game presents them to me as the hero, theoretically the person I should be rooting for to succeed. That is me. That is why I'm not interested in playing the game. You want more games like TLOU2, then I hope you get them.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Which he really doesn't know that. He thinks he does but he really doesn't.

Ah, okay. I see where the breakdown is.

TheRock1525 posted...

Some of the greatest media ever created involved unlikable, unsympathetic protagonists.

you are correct, but I've also not enjoyed media with unlikable, unsympathetic protagonists

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can we all at least agree that the ms painting over spoilers is high quality content

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To me, generally repeating my opinion to others is with the intent as to present it as equally valid. I don't go back into the APWT to discuss my opinions because I believe they don't hold any weight to others.

I mean, if the intent is to simply reiterate a previously held position that you seem to openly acknowledge is weaker than others with more experience, then I'm sorry to have accused you to having held equal weight as someone like XIII or Han's. But I question what is to gain at this point when if the first impressions have left you uninterested in the game, why return to the topic 10 days after release?

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TheRock1525 posted...

But I question what is to gain at this point when if the first impressions have left you uninterested in the game, why return to the topic 10 days after release?

Because I've been lurking in the topic the whole time? I've been curious to see what people who are actually playing the game have to say about the leaks that came out beforehand. The disparity in the viewpoints interests me, even if I have little interest in the game. The meta aspect of TLOU2 is probably going to wind up being more fascinating to me than the game itself.

But I generally don't look at presenting my opinion in terms of structure like "stronger, equal, or weaker," so that's a bit strange to me. Either way, I don't really plan to jump into every TLOU2 topic with a "I don't want to play this game" discussion. This seemed like the place to have that discussion.

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I think the issue with likability on Abby is that you have to be willing to separate her from the act of killing Joel. You can hate that she did it but still acknowledge the why, and observe how her future story goes and how she's changed from taking her act of revenge, being swerved by guilt to become a better person.

If you can't get over her killing Joel then you will just cheer for Ellie and Tommy being worse people and then get disappointed when you don't get to kill Abby.

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Im just curious if all the people here who are looking for any excuse they can to find sympathy for Abby give the same benefit to criminals and other bad people in real life.

maybe this is secretly the real moral takeaway from this story.

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The hell? It's not "any excuse", it's fucking self-evident. There's no need for a desperate search. The game practically screams at you to feel for her. Putting her through hell to rescue what was once an enemy. Confronting her greatest phobia. Finding her Dad's body after having been brutally killed for the crime of trying to save humanity. Having the guilt of what she did to Joel very evidently weigh on her throughout.

This sentiment I've seen that people are "finding excuses" to sympathise with Abby has to be the most puzzling thing of all. It's one thing to say merely sympathising isn't enough to make her someone you want to play as, it's another to imply the reasons behind it are forced or even invented.

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Ok bro, thats cool. The word excuse was probably the least important part of my post. Care to engage with the rest of it?

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redrocket posted...

Im just curious if all the people here who are looking for any excuse they can to find sympathy for Abby give the same benefit to criminals and other bad people in real life.

This comparison really doesn't make sense because we're comparing people's behaviour in modern society with proper rules and law vs a post-apocalyptic world where most of that shit is thrown out the window.

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redrocket posted...

Ok bro, thats cool. The word excuse was probably the least important part of my post. Care to engage with the rest of it?

Okay now these are the posts you should be attacking, Rock.

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redrocket posted...

Ok bro, thats cool. The word excuse was probably the least important part of my post. Care to engage with the rest of it?

Well to me it was the most important because it changes the entire context of what you're saying. When combined with "looking for any", anyway. Because by saying that, you're saying the act of sympathising for Abby is something that was forced, something you had to actively try to do. It wasn't natural or the result of the storytelling, I had to go out of my way to force sympathy, to "look for" reasons/"excuses". Which is simply untrue. It also implies that those "excuses" are somehow hidden when to me they could not be more obvious.

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TheRock1525 posted...

This comparison really doesn't make sense because we're comparing people's behaviour in modern society with proper rules and law vs a post-apocalyptic world where most of that shit is thrown out the window.

...No? People have reasons for what they do and who they are regardless of the world they live in. Sympathy is a universal condition that can exist in any setting. And basic rules like thou shall not kill are pretty universal and transcend the conditions you live in.

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pity rocket had to wait until the very end of the thread to start making terrible posts

A lot of video games routinely ask you to kill. Like, a lot. Repeatedly. Over and over.

So like the basic rule of "thou shall not kill" is thrown out the window almost immediately.

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We often give benefit of the doubt to fictional characters because they're fictional.

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Like there's a super interesting discussion to be had between the cognitive dissonance between Nathan "Whacky Fun Happy Treasure Hunter" Drake and the mini-9/11 he commits every time he goes out to steal some shit.

But this game is literally a hellscape where a sizeable portion of the world is literal zombies and all of society has broken down.

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TheRock1525 posted...

A lot of video games routinely ask you to kill. Like, a lot. Repeatedly. Over and over.

So like the basic rule of "thou shall not kill" is thrown out the window almost immediately.

Im not asking you how it makes you feel when you explode someones frozen corpse in Mortal Kombat.

Im talking about real life. Do you ever go back and entertain second thoughts about a person on real life that you had previously mentally labeled as bad?

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redrocket posted...

Im not asking you how it makes you feel when you explode someones frozen corpse in Mortal Kombat.

Im talking about real life. Do you ever go back and entertain second thoughts about a person on real life that you had previously mentally labeled as bad?

I think these are two things that should be completely segregated with no overlap.

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The game routinely wants you to feel for Abby, when they also make her screw her drunk ex-boyfriend whose current pregnant girlfriend rightfully doesn't want her to hang out with him, and then Abby proceeds to tell him that their night of awkward lovemaking meant absolutely nothing to her.

The game is constantly at odds by having Abby do shit that terrible people do but then go around attempting to make you feel bad for her. And it's very strange that people are acting like this job does such a great job making you feel bad for a woman who tortures people and is an adultress.

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You know what game does suck?

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Sonic 2006

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