Current Events > Please list the pros and cons of defunding the police

(+) Yeah! (+)

Minneapolis is considering it and I happen to think its not necessarily a bad idea.

pros:
-No more police brutality
-More funding for community programs like drug addiction counseling, after school programs, new reformed program that doesnt use violence against the community

Cons:
-potential criminals getting away with stuff?


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Wait so no police in Minneapolis? AGhhhhhhhh HAHA. This should be good.

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Joker98 posted...

Cons:
-potential criminals getting away with stuff?

You really are underestimating what this would be like

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You remove cops completely and we go into mad max dystopian/cave man day society lmao

Mark_DeRosa posted...

That post is too small to read and the two other graphs don't make sense to me. Can you explain?

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Its called the koper curve. Its a study done that shows something like 90 percent of crime in a town is committed in the same small concentrated area of the town. Showing the numbers and effects that police presence alone in the hot zone has, how much just presence alone deters crime

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Also, policing is not limited to boys in blue riding around slapping the bracelets on people. There's chains of custody, there's evidence collection & preservation of crime scenes, interviewing victims, witnesses, canvassing neighborhoods, you have to be ready to handle serious emergencies of a medical nature when EMT's aren't present, etc. You have to have training and experience for this type of work.

You just can't have the Guardian Angels all of a sudden spraying luminol to find blood splatter or Reclaim The Block potentially tainting evidence in a sexual assault case because they have 0 experience with evidence collection.

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Yea, so we are trading all the police not just the bad, so for thing like gun crazy nut job to think they will be the cops?

There's no upside.

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Remove cops and create volunteer peace keepers

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Dark_SilverX posted...

Remove cops and create volunteer peace keepers

"Volunteer peace keepers" are how you get hundreds of George Zimmermans self-policing neighborhoods

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Dark_SilverX posted...

Remove cops and create volunteer peace keepers

Dark_SilverX posted...

Remove cops and create volunteer peace keepers

how will peace keepers deal with violent domestics, active shooters, etc...


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ffs it's 2020
why do we even still have criminals
can't everyone just be cool?

Mark_DeRosa posted...

how will peace keepers deal with violent domestics, active shooters, etc...

With a gun obviously just like with jaywalking

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Dolph_Ziggler posted...

"Volunteer peace keepers" are how you get hundreds of George Zimmermans self-policing neighborhoods

Have you seen the videos on Twitter bro ?thats basically what we have

Irony posted...

With a gun obviously just like with jaywalking

so give the peace keepers guns, sounds like cops with extra steps

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"We want higher quality police"
"But we don't want to pay them very much"

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Mark_DeRosa posted...

so give the peace keepers guns, sounds like cops with extra steps

No it has less steps because you don't train them in any way

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For those genuinely interested in learning about the theory and practices of abolishing police forces (in their current form) Verso Books is currently offering free digital downloads of The End Of Policing here:

https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing

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Isn't the idea of defunding the police to get rid of the corrupt setup we have now and replace it from the ground up with new people and better procedures? I mean, obviously you need some kind of police force. Nobody has any issue with the existence of law enforcement in and of itself. The problem is the blank check for power officers get, the corruption, and the complete inability for anyone to hold bad actors and those who enable them accountable.

Odoylerules posted...

Have you seen the videos on Twitter bro ?thats basically what we have

You are overlooking the fact that these same cops will be the first to volunteer, joining up with academy dropouts

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Wow, looks like you put an impressive amount of thought into this.

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Its a very bad idea.

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We need the police to maintain some sort of order. It's hard to believe but we actually are better off without them.

Let's start by demilitarizing the cops.

No need to cut off our nose to spite our face.

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I suspect they're going to do something like what happened with camden new jersery's police, not just disband it entirely.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department

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I dont see how thats going to change cops mindsets.

Less training, worse equipment, potentially less pay, itll exacerbate problems if anything.

This is the idea of some fucking asshole thats going to reappropriate the funds somewhere where he/she can get a cut.

Why obligation do people have to obey the laws if theres nobody to enforce them?

PMarth2002 posted...

I suspect they're going to do something like what happened with camden new jersery's police, not just disband it entirely.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department

Camden has a reputation of being one of the top 10 deadliest cities in the US even after this reform lol, trust me its not the best example whatsoever

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

Why obligation do people have to obey the laws if theres nobody to enforce them?

Camden has a reputation of being one of the top 10 deadliest cities in the US even after this reform lol, trust me its not the best example whatsoever

Got any better examples? Its legit the only one that I'm aware of.

Anyway, I'd expect it to take time and from what I read the murder rate is at its lowest since the 80s, which seems to say its making some progress at least.


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PMarth2002 posted...

Got any better examples? Its legit the only one that I'm aware of.

LAPD reformed in a major way after the 92 riots and has an approval rating of 73%.

They still killed more people than any other police department in 2015.

PMarth2002 posted...

Anyway, I'd expect it to take time and from what I read the murder rate is at its lowest since the 80s, which seems to say its making some progress at least.

You still have a 1/62 chance of being a victim of violent crime in Camden and 1/33 of property crime.

Progress is nice but its not the reform utopia some people are presenting it as.

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

You still have a 1/62 chance of being a victim of violent crime in Camden and 1/33 of property crime.

Progress is nice but its not the reform utopia some people are presenting it as.

Probably because true reform needs time, effort, and a broad reach to be effective?

He literally showed a policy that's working and you're arguing that it's not enough so it should be reverted? What kind of sense is that?

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What part of "the LAPD still kills more people than all other police departments after their supposed reform over 20 years later" did I not make clear

Most of these people have no idea what goes into a reform/abolition other than "some sort of deescalation" and probably "no guns". We saw a preview of what happened when the police leave certain parts of the cities in the past week; the gangs take over for protection.

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They would become even more desperate to engage in civil asset forfeiture.

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

What part of "the LAPD still kills more people than all other police departments after their supposed reform over 20 years later" did I not make clear

Most of these people have no idea what goes into a reform/abolition other than "some sort of deescalation" and probably "no guns". We saw a preview of what happened when the police leave certain parts of the cities in the past week; the gangs take over for protection.

why do people need "protection"? why not address the root causes of these issues rather than putting people with guns in the neighborhood as a way with dealing with the symptoms?

AvantgardeAClue posted...

What part of "the LAPD still kills more people than all other police departments after their supposed reform over 20 years later" did I not make clear

Maybe the part where I was referring to the New Jersey policies and not LAPD?

Even then the LAPD has recorded less police-involved deaths since the 90s.

So what's your point? Progress is being made even if it's not met a goal yet. Does that mean we need to revert the reforms?

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Joker98 posted...

Minneapolis is considering it and I happen to think its not necessarily a bad idea.

pros:
-No more police brutality
-More funding for community programs like drug addiction counseling, after school programs, new reformed program that doesnt use violence against the community

Cons:
-

Yes I agree. It's not like ever depended on them anyway because literally anyone here has probably thought about it or contacted the police only to result in basically the same result as if they didn't exist at all.

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

LAPD reformed in a major way after the 92 riots and has an approval rating of 73%.

They still killed more people than any other police department in 2015.

You still have a 1/62 chance of being a victim of violent crime in Camden and 1/33 of property crime.

Progress is nice but its not the reform utopia some people are presenting it as.

Proportionally or in total? LA's one of the biggest cities in the nation.

Some people are naturally optimistic. I'd expect these things to take time.

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ZMythos posted...

Maybe the part where I was referring to the New Jersey policies and not LAPD?

Probably because in other parts of NJ more police actually helps lol

Irvington reported either 0 or only 1 murder in 2019. In the 2000s people were getting murdered on my block when police presence and population was reduced. I'm sure that's no coincidence

ZMythos posted...

Even then the LAPD has recorded less police-involved deaths since the 90s.

Silver lining is that police beatings reached an all time high lately lol

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-12/lapd-use-of-force-report

And yes, there have been a few deaths from non-gun use of force too unfortunately

ZMythos posted...

So what's your point? Progress is being made even if it's not met a goal yet. Does that mean we need to revert the reforms?

Just in how many years do people expect things to work out? Is Minnesota gonna suddenly plummet on the crime charts if the police are either reformed or eradicated entirely in its current form?

I'm all for changing things for the better too, but people seem to provide no foundation for their reform working where others aren't.

PMarth2002 posted...

Proportionally or in total? LA's one of the biggest cities in the nation.

Proportionally, I think. LA has more people than most of the other states and that kinda balances out the number.

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Joker98 posted...

Cons:
-potential criminals getting away with stuff?

Yeah just a bunch of rape, murder, burglary, no big deal.

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DevsBro posted...

Yeah just a bunch of rape, murder, burglary, no big deal.

because cops can prevent rapes, murders, and burglaries?

Fam_Fam posted...

because cops can prevent rapes, murders, and burglaries?

Of course.

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DevsBro posted...

Of course

which is why we still have lots of each of those throughout the entire country, with cops? sure, they stop a subset of each of them, but each still happen every single day, and all of these things do and can happen in circumstances where cops aren't able to do things.

cops can't prevent a burglary, unless they happen to be there right when it happens.
most rapes happen with people who the victim knows in a private location, not in the middle of the street where a cop can stop them.
cops can't generally prevent a murder unless it was happening in public and taking enough time for them to save the person's life.

cops don't stop any of these things from happening, and people do them even with the threat of punishment, with cops on the street, etc. cops being around doesn't prevent people from actually committing these crimes.

Fam_Fam posted...

which is why we still have lots of each of those throughout the entire country, with cops? sure, they stop a subset of each of them, but each still happen every single day, and all of these things do and can happen in circumstances where cops aren't able to do things.

cops can't prevent a burglary, unless they happen to be there right when it happens.
most rapes happen with people who the victim knows in a private location, not in the middle of the street where a cop can stop them.
cops can't generally prevent a murder unless it was happening in public and taking enough time for them to save the person's life.

cops don't stop any of these things from happening, and people do them even with the threat of punishment, with cops on the street, etc. cops being around doesn't prevent people from actually committing these crimes.

"Sure cops stop a subset but whatever cops don't stop any of it"

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Pensions are crippling California

With no cops places could always hire security to watch over stores and shopping centers.

I'm just worried the potential replacement for the police would use REAL bullets against the protesters.

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Returning_CEmen posted...

Pensions are crippling California

California would have to be crippled for this to be true

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No logical individual actually believes or wants to completely disband policing.

if the minority of idiots who want community police get there way all youre going to see is increase in gangs and trafficking. Cities broken up into territory by rival gangs and affiliates.

youre encouraging a cartel like structure.

and as others have mentioned the police is more than people with guns and handcuffs.

all the other investigative work and forensics would be gone as well.

there are ways to fix policing without getting rid of police work.

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DevsBro posted...

"Sure cops stop a subset but whatever cops don't stop any of it"

they don't prevent them from happening though. they find the perpetrators after the fact, and they're not even particularly good at that

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averagejoel posted...

they don't prevent them from happening though. they find the perpetrators after the fact, and they're not even particularly good at that

Yeah they do. Both as a deterrent and sometimes even directly. Directly doesn't happen a lot but it does happen.

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