Current Events > Do you think toxic masculinity is a real thing?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gamerguymass posted...

You can't teach an entire gender to not behave the way they are biologically programmed to behave.

Explain women.

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nemu posted...

The issue is the packaging. It's a talking point devised by the same people who push mansplaning and the wage gap. It's a disingenuous packaging of issues that does not seek to actually correct the issues like the concept of "white privilege" as packaged by the same people. The point is to have some clearly defined umbrella of buzzworss under which they can toss all the problems they see in the world without actually doing anything. Do behavioral issues stemming from stereotypes of how people should act and disparities in "privilege" exist? Yes. Are these fair, unbiased talking points actually meant to address the issues? No.

Pretty much this. These are perfectly good concepts but they're expressed by people who have incredible hangups and personality disorders. See: all of twitter
Doesn't help that a lot of these things are understood very differently by different people since they're not well-defined. Like what does "male fragility" mean? Some of these people will say it means maleness is fragile, some would say it means the male individual is fragile. Anyone who believes the latter is a major detriment to their own movement since the average person will take that as the bitter falsehood that it is.

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Gamerguymass posted...

I'm talking about instinct. That is something you can't get rid of. You can't teach an entire gender to not behave the way they are biologically programmed to behave.

Do you really have such a lack of faith in humanity that you dont believe people can overcome their baser instincts, especially when we have countless examples of exactly that happening.

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yea.

there's even an example in one of the topics on this board, about how a rapper commissions prostitutes to give his son and nephews oral once they hit puberty so that they won't end up gay.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/14/rapper-boosie-badazz-claims-paid-oral-sex-12-year-old-son-12701885/

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Women like bad boys though.

I always thought of toxic masculinity as hyper-masculine 'dude bros' who indulge and reinforce negative 'manly' stereotypes (like misogyny and homophobia) and go out their way to pick on other men for not being up to their standards on what a 'real man' is.

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Conflict posted...

The people who say toxic masculinity isn't real are always idiots who think it means masculinity in itself is toxic. It reminds me of when Sillyknees was around talking about white privilege and there'd always be some numbskull thinking that meant that no white person could have hardships or struggles

White privilege really is a BS term. Whites don't have privilege, minorities have disadvantages. When a white person treats me the way a person should be treated, that's not an aberration, it's ordinary and the same thing that everyone should get.

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StickFigures720 posted...

I always thought of toxic masculinity as hyper-masculine 'dude bros' who indulge and reinforce negative 'manly' stereotypes (like misogyny and homophobia) and go out their way to pick on other men for not being up to their standards on what a 'real man' is.

Yeah pretty much this, especially the last part. It's just insecure douchebags trying to elevate themselves up not by being better, but by making others worse

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Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

Whites don't have privilege, minorities have disadvantages.

Everything's relative.

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lol, no. Assholish behavior is just assholish behavior. Trying to tie said behavior to a gender is stupid at best and sexist at worst.

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

Do you really have such a lack of faith in humanity that you dont believe people can overcome their baser instincts, especially when we have countless examples of exactly that happening.

Examples such as? Individual examples are not indicative of the whole. Plus you know what instincts are right? We are hardwired with them in our brain. People like to think because we have built shit like cars and skyscrapers that we don't have biological programming anymore. Except we are still the same species as 50,000 years ago. We still have the exact same urges and instincts as they did.

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Gamerguymass posted...

Examples such as?

Women.

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Gamerguymass posted...

Examples such as? Individual examples are not indicative of the whole. Plus you know what instincts are right? We are hardwired with them in our brain. People like to think because we have built shit like cars and skyscrapers that we don't have biological programming anymore. Except we are still the same species as 50,000 years ago. We still have the exact same urges and instincts as they did.

You want examples of people going against humanities basic instincts? How about you define what those basic instincts are first, because I can think of one right now but first I need to know if you consider it a basic instinct or not.

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

You want examples of people going against humanities basic instincts? How about you define what those basic instincts are first, because I can think of one right now but first I need to know if you consider it a basic instinct or not.

I'm not asking for individual examples. As I said an individual means nothing to the whole. You implied you had examples of a majority of a gender or people going completely against their natural instincts. That is my point. A lot of the stuff that gets called toxic masculinity these days is stuff that men have been doing/thinking/feeling since men first existed. Hence a biologically programmed instinct which isn't something that can just be turned off or wished away.

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Gamerguymass posted...

A lot of the stuff that gets called toxic masculinity these days is stuff that men have been doing/thinking/feeling since men first existed. Hence a biologically programmed instinct which isn't something that can just be turned off or wished away.

Like what?

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CyricZ posted...

Everything's relative.

keep reading

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Gamerguymass posted...

I'm not asking for individual examples. As I said an individual means nothing to the whole. You implied you had examples of a majority of a gender or people going completely against their natural instincts. That is my point. A lot of the stuff that gets called toxic masculinity these days is stuff that men have been doing/thinking/feeling since men first existed. Hence a biologically programmed instinct which isn't something that can just be turned off or wished away.

I do have an example of a significant group of people going against what I consider to be a basic human instinct, but I want you to define what you consider to be basic human instincts first.

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Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

keep reading

What, your vague example of "being treated well".

From one perspective, one side has disadvantages. From another, the other side has privileges. It's all relative to where you're standing.

The fact that you think "being treated well" is "normal" makes plain which perspective you're operating from.

You just don't like it being called "white privilege" because it puts the spotlight on white people. Which it should. Because white people built the system.

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Of course. But I think a lot of people are overshooting the other way too.

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CyricZ posted...

The fact that you think "being treated well" is "normal" makes plain which perspective you're operating from.

Thought I made it pretty clear that I'm white but good detective skills there chief
CyricZ posted...

You just don't like it being called "white privilege" because it puts the spotlight on white people. Which it should. Because white people built the system.

They built the system that made minorities second-class citizens as well so this logic doesn't really hold up

The sad part is that people generally understand the point I'm making, it's just that they, like you, would rather tribalize and hate a particular section of the population. You generally hear PoC say things like "I shouldn't have to go out of my way to seem non-threatening when walking down the street near a white person", rather than "White people should have to go out of their way to seem nonthreatening like I do". This demonstrates an understanding that it's not a privilege, it's the baseline. Everyone else is just disadvantaged.

The system wasn't built with white privilege. Slavery was the institution, nonslavery was the default. Not discriminating job applicants based on their name is normal, discriminating is the aberration. Etc.

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It's not about "hating a particular section of the population". It's recognizing where the problem came from and maybe taking some responsibility for breaking it down.

It's about realizing that the system is still in place despite MLK and civil rights and recognizing when the system has worked in yours and my favor.

You tie "hate" too much to it, and that's hardly constructive for finding solutions.

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CyricZ posted...

You tie "hate" too much to it, and that's hardly constructive for finding solutions.

The irony is that if people stopped calling it that then normal people would be more sympathetic. But no self-respecting white person will go for it if you say whites have a special privilege they're anointed with at birth.

And not wanting it called "white privilege" is not the same as denying responsibility fyi. Especially when whites generally feel (rightly) that they had no part in the creation of the system

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This site has toxic Reporting simps, not always simping for actual humans.

Which is even weirder.

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Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

The irony is that if people stopped calling it that then normal people would be more sympathetic.

Right. That's the problem. The people who lash out and get defensive the minute anyone suggests that they might have a role or responsibility in all this.

How sensitive are white people that we need such things sugarcoated before we even consider a rational response?

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Its real. And its worrying when world leaders epitomise it and reverse the progress made in reducing these undesirable attitudes.

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Men can be toxic

So can every other species in existence. The idea you are more prone to it because you were born with a dick is just silly.

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CyricZ posted...

How sensitive are white people that we need such things sugarcoated before we even consider a rational response?

"Minority disadvantage" isn't any more sugarcoated than "white privilege" though. If anything, it's a lot less so. "Disadvantage" is a nasty word, "privilege" sounds cool and upper-class.
CyricZ posted...

Right. That's the problem. The people who lash out and get defensive the minute anyone suggests that they might have a role or responsibility in all this.

You speak about what's productive and what isn't and then say this. Lol
Doesn't matter how you want people to think, people think a certain way and that's that. You catch more flies with honey

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im not 13 posted...

Men can be toxic

So can every other species in existence. The idea you are more prone to it because you were born with a dick is just silly.

Just cause you were born with a vagina, doesn't mean you can't be masculine. So this isn't just about men. That's just who a lot of people aim it at because it's more rampant.

Plenty of women raise their kids with toxic masculinity tho. Calling them sissies for having feelings and what not

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Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

"Minority disadvantage" isn't any more sugarcoated than "white privilege" though. If anything, it's a lot less so. "Disadvantage" is a nasty word, "privilege" sounds cool and upper-class.

You speak about what's productive and what isn't and then say this. Lol
Doesn't matter how you want people to think, people think a certain way and that's that. You catch more flies with honey

The more white people set the terms of what white privilege is, the further we get from fixing the problem.

Quite frankly, wanting the term "white privilege" rebranded before viewing it as a problem is, itself, white privilege.

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CyricZ posted...

The more white people set the terms of what white privilege is, the further we get from fixing the problem.

Quite frankly, wanting the term "white privilege" rebranded before viewing it as a problem is, itself, white privilege.

So white privilege is just anything you want it to be, then. Well we've come full circle to my original point about these terms being nebulous. I would think you guys would like to get the general population on board instead of having nothing but rainbow-haired twitter freaks carrying the torch but you seem insistent on "keeping it in the family", so to speak.

Glad it's not an issue I care about, lmao. Glhf

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dudebro persecution complex is real in this topix

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CyricZ posted...

What, your vague example of "being treated well".

From one perspective, one side has disadvantages. From another, the other side has privileges. It's all relative to where you're standing.

The fact that you think "being treated well" is "normal" makes plain which perspective you're operating from.

You just don't like it being called "white privilege" because it puts the spotlight on white people. Which it should. Because white people built the system.

To be fair expecting people to pay for the sins of their fathers is kind of bullshit.

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The term gets overused a lot nowadays but it absolutely exists and some of the more extreme cases border on mental illness.
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If anyone gives a single fuck about learning anything about toxic masculinity, they'll check this link

https://xyonline.net/content/toxic-masculinity-primer-and-commentary

Covers pretty much every problem/argument against it as well

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

To be fair expecting people to pay for the sins of their fathers is kind of bullshit.

The good news is that there's honestly very little for the average citizen to "pay".

The first step is recognizing the system. That it exists, that white people benefit from it, even if they don't consciously know that they do.

After that, there's a few other simple things:

1. Be willing to call out injustice when you see it. That might be signal boosting an injustice in the news (such as the Ahmaud Aubrey case), and it might be uncomfortable conversations with people you know. The more people know about it, the easier it is to address as an issue.
2. Be cognizant of the policymakers you back and vote for, and their track records on racial inequality and racial justice. These policymakers will be the ones to create policy that affects PoC, which will have the largest sweeping effect on the issue.
3. And this is the hardest one: know when to be quiet and listen when someone who is not white has an experience or a perspective they want to share with regards to racial inequality. It's tough because we all want to be noble and help as much as we can, but there are many times when their words will be so much more valuable than anything a white person can give.

If you get those on lock, you're already doing pretty damn well for an average white citizen. There are of course the other usuals like volunteering your time and money to groups that combat racial inequality, and if you feel compelled to get involved, mores the better.

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CyricZ posted...

The good news is that there's honestly very little for the average citizen to "pay".

The first step is recognizing the system. That it exists, that white people benefit from it, even if they don't consciously know that they do.

After that, there's a few other simple things:
1. Be willing to call out injustice when you see it. That might be signal boosting an injustice in the news (such as the Ahmaud Aubrey case), and it might be uncomfortable conversations with people you know. The more people know about it, the easier it is to address as an issue.
2. Be cognizant of the policymakers you back and vote for, and their track records on racial inequality and racial justice. These policymakers will be the ones to create policy that affects PoC, which will have the largest sweeping effect on the issue.
3. And this is the hardest one: know when to be quiet and listen when someone who is not white has an experience or a perspective they want to share with regards to racial inequality. It's tough because we all want to be noble and help as much as we can, but there are many times when their words will be so much more valuable than anything a white person can give.
If you get those on lock, you're already doing pretty damn well for an average white citizen. There are of course the other usuals like volunteering your time and money to groups that combat racial inequality, and if you feel compelled to get involved, mores the better.

While I agree with everything said here, part of the issue, I believe exists, is that there is hostility towards white people for something they are not entirely at fault for(the system) nor can they control(their skin colour.) Bettering society is a group effort that needs cohesion from every single person or at least enough if them that it acts like herd immunity does for disease.

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StickFigures720 posted...

I always thought of toxic masculinity as hyper-masculine 'dude bros' who indulge and reinforce negative 'manly' stereotypes (like misogyny and homophobia) and go out their way to pick on other men for not being up to their standards on what a 'real man' is.

And they themselves are not necessarily hypermasculine. They could be doughy nerds who have limited imagination, and beat themselves up for failing to "be a MAN". And to make themselves feel even a smidge better, insult others along those lines.
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absolutely, even if it's not intentional

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I believe there's a real thing people mistakenly call toxic masculinity.

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