Current Events > "Minimum wage jobs are for teenagers! Don't raise the min. wage!"

(+) Yeah! (+)

DifferentialEquation posted...

Shablagoo posted...

DifferentialEquation posted...

Shablagoo posted...

Businesses profits have increased, but their workers wages havent. Seems fair to me!

This is what some people actually believe.

What's inherently unfair about this? The business making more profits doesn't automatically make you deserving of more money, especially if it's for a reason that makes your job easier (like the old manual cash registers being replaced with scanners).

Its unfair because we are human beings, not beasts of burden. Everything else in society you need to sustain yourself (shelter, food, etc.) continues to rise in price while wages remain stagnant. How can that possibly be expected to work indefinitely?

The problem is people being irresponsible by living beyond their means, having kids that they can't possibly afford, taking out ridiculous student loans for degrees that are not worth and committing other such acts of fiscal immorality.

I disagree. Its actually about this imo:

Everything else in society you need to sustain yourself (shelter, food, etc.) continues to rise in price while wages remain stagnant.

---

I Like Toast posted...

DifferentialEquation posted...

The problem is people being irresponsible by living beyond their means, having kids that they can't possibly afford, taking out ridiculous student loans for degrees that are not worth and committing other such acts of fiscal immorality

Yeah why dont young adults and teens just not be young adults and teens!

"What?! You don't have your credit maxed out and you budget your money? Stop being such a loser!"
---

i'm sure gamefaqs a+ modstaff will handle your low effort trolling. If you can make an actual intelligent reply, try again.
---

I got a tag notification in this topic. what was happening

---

I Like Toast posted...

many, of course. Most? no. But even if we say they are reasonable, you still have a fundamentally f***ed up system if making one mistake before you can legally drink is going to leave you with financial instability for 10-20 years.

Cardinal rule is the higher your social class is, the greater number of mistakes you can make before screwing yourself over. And having a child at the poverty line is a practical death sentence, possibly more then getting a felony.
---

In America no matter how hard you work you will never be "entitled" to survive. I did retail, my fam did retail and it was soul crushing. I was doing 60-70 hours and still didn't have enough to survive. I never got any benefits or vacation because our store was understaffed. My mom when my uncle passed wasn't allowed to take the day off, when my brother got sick eh was fired and not allowed unemployment. People will defend this. You're scum if you do.

I get paid $18/h to watch cameras and watch netflix as a Sec Guard. My job is secure. I work 40 hours with a set schedule and good benefits and yet you're telling me the people working 40+ hours for $10 or below don't deserve help? What should they just suffer?

Balnazarr posted...

and yet you're telling me the people working 40+ hours for $10 or below don't deserve help?

Go. Help them.

I will admit why I'm probably more biased about this than anyone. For years I bussed tables or folded towels working minimum wage. They were shitty jobs for sure, but I was able to make ends meet. Of course I had to live frugally.

When people tell me minimum wage isn't liveable, I get skeptical. Are they living within their means? Because I feel like more often then not, unless they are a single parent, they aren't financially responsible. Of course minimum wage isn't liveable if you want to live in a nice neighborhood and have a car and nice things. Everyone does.

I wanted nice things too. So what I did was live within my means. Saved up my money, and went to school for a profitable career.

Min Wage was like 8 bucks at the time, but I managed to make it on my own. I just lived within my means. I think that if I can make it on my own in Cali then most people nationwide can do it too.

It sucked, but I wasn't in poverty. Had a really shitty place in Gardena which is Compton lite. I mean, my rent was barely hitting 700 a month. That should speak a lot since Cali isn't seen as a cheap place to live. Saved on insurance and payments since I relied on public transit. Didnt eat out to save costs on food. Like really, budget. Shit, I probably could've saved more if I roomed with someone. It sucks but you're not entitled to all the nice things with min wage job. There's so many to pick from and easily attainable. They aren't meant to be careers. They're stepping stones. All you need are the basic necessities.

Again, if it's not liveable then you either aren't living within your means or you've got mouths to feed. In which case I'd advocate for revised tax credits since those are geared to assist those with families.

And I'm not entirely against a wage increase. I just think that there are better alternatives. And I don't think that 15 is a good number. Cost of living isn't standardized so wages shouldn't be either. You wanna talk about what's fair or unfair but make people in rural areas close down their businesses because they can't tank the hits while Walmart can. Additionally now you have the guys working their min Wage jobs in Ohio or Iowa living the comfy bachelor life now when they were already getting a liveable wage and the single parents in LA are still struggling. Yes that's fair.

If there were to be a wage increase I don't think we should do a flat singular wage. I like the direction Oregon is going. They have 3 different minimum wages that account for cost of living and production etc. But before we do that I'd say try and work on the tax credits because iirc there are literally no risks or comparable disadvantages. If that doesn't work then maybe a min wage increase is necessary.

I'm just saying look at all our options and look at what the problem really is and see which option caters most to the real issue.
---

averagejoel posted...

I got a tag notification in this topic. what was happening

iirc DE was making the argument that minimum wage jobs dont pay a living wage because their labor isnt worth a living wage, and I think I remember you having a good rebuttal to that argument once.

---

SailorGoon posted...
you're looking at this as though it's an issue with individual people. it is not. it is systemic.

in other words, the problem is not "I am not making enough money"; it is "this job is shitty and exploitative." one more person "living within their means" will not fix that. one thousand more people "living within their means" will not fix that either.

leaving the job also does not solve the problem of the job being shitty and exploitative -- it still exists regardless of who's working, and it is still shitty and exploitative even if the person working the job does not express any grievance with it. if every single person in such a situation did what you did, the shitty exploitative job would still be there, and someone would still be working it.

capitalism necessitates the existence of an underclass. because of the way it functions, it cannot work out well for everyone.

---

Most fast food joints are minimum wage and they are staffed mostly by punk ass kids who can't be bothered to actually be professional. Fuck giving them more money.
---

Muflaggin posted...

Most fast food joints are minimum wage and they are staffed mostly by punk ass kids who can't be bothered to actually be professional. Fuck giving them more money.

Did you ignore the OP?

And thats a hell of a generalization.
---

Shablagoo posted...

Did you ignore the OP?

The OP you made up with no factual basis and have been shown wrong multiple times?
---

I Like Toast posted...

Shablagoo posted...

Did you ignore the OP?

The OP you made up with no factual basis and have been shown wrong multiple times?

What are you talking about? What he said is true and he backed it up with BLS data.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm

Look at the linked table 1

388,000 16-19 year olds make minimum wage or less
933,000 25+ year olds make minimum wage or less
891,000 16 to 24 year olds make minimim wage or less, so with basic math that means about 500,000 20-24 year olds make minimim wage or less

so that's 388,000 teenagers vs ~1.4 million non-teenagers
---

If you look at the 2018 numbers aren't too different either

905,000 25+ min. wage workers
805,000 16-24 min wage workers
361,000 16-19 so 440,000 20-24

1.34 million non-teens vs 361,000 teens
---

Shablagoo posted...

are adults, often with families to take care of

Ctrl f Teenager not found

The majority are high and college students. I Like Toast posted...

Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up about half of those paid the federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers (ages 16 to 19) paid by the hour, about 8 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 1 percent of workers age 25 and older. (See tables 1 and 7.)

Education. Among hourly paid workers age 16 and older, about 4 percent of those without a high school diploma earned the federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of those who had a high school diploma (with no college), about 2 percent of those with some college or an associate degree, and about 1 percent of college graduates. (See table 6.)

Marital status. Of those paid an hourly wage, never-married workers, who tend to be young, were more likely (4 percent) than married workers (1 percent) to earn the federal minimum wage or less. (See table 8.)

---

^Well that post is nonsensical, so I dont know what you want me to do with that.

And, thanks Balrog.
---

I want you to be an educated individual who doesn't make things up to troll. But that won't happen because education would undercut your trolling.
---

I Like Toast posted...

I want you to be an educated individual who doesn't make things up to troll. But that won't happen because education would undercut your trolling.

It seems like youre the one making things up. My source was just reposted and explained in detail by Balrog and you ignored both of his comments to instead quote an old one of mine and add a smidge of unintelligible gibberish to it.
---

I Like Toast posted...

Ctrl f Teenager not found

its literally in the topic title

I Like Toast posted...

The majority are high and college students

adults are 18+ if you want to be pedantic like this. look at the numbers I just posted.
---

also, maybe teen workers are disproportionately parents who have dropped out of school due to financial stress

there's literally no way to make this topic be false based on those BLS numbers unless you just make assumptions regarding the way they summarize them and don't look at the actual data
---

"Your" source was posted by me and your statement wasI Like Toast posted...

are adults, often with families to take care of

Which has exactly nothing to do with being a teenager. You're doing standard trolling and moving the goal post to something you never said rather than admit you made things up with no attempt to research if it had any factual basis.
---

I Like Toast posted...

are adults, often with families to take care of

Which has exactly nothing to do with being a teenager. You're doing standard trolling and moving the goal post to something you never said rather than admit you made things up with no attempt to research if it had any factual basis.

so what is your issue with his statement exactly? do you think 18 year olds aren't adults?
---

SapphireTech462 posted...

They need to do better

Prismsblade posted...

Shablagoo posted...

> yrw the majority of minimum wage workers are adults, often with families to take care of

And who's fault is that exactly? And why should they care?

There are numerous reasons as to why someone late in age might still be working a menial job. It isnt always a matter of that person just didnt apply themselves.

We should care because basic human compassion.
---

FWIW, EPI data says roughly 28% of minimum wage workers have children

https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percent-workers-benefit/

this is a bit old

but this is the only way I can imagine you taking issue with the statement in the OP, since people might think 28% isn't very often. but it isnt even included in the BLS data unless I missed it some where!
---

Balrog0 posted...

so what is your issue with his statement exactly? do you think 18 year olds aren't adults?

Do you think 18 year olds aren't teens? Seeing the problem with even changing the goal post to adults vs teens?Balrog0 posted...

also, maybe teen workers are disproportionately parents who have dropped out of school due to financial stress

Then data would support it, which would be cited. Yet the information we do have shows people with families make up 25% of min wage which I showed days ago and the trolling OP still wants to act like his claim has any factual basis .
---

I Like Toast posted...

Do you think 18 year olds aren't teens? Seeing the problem with even changing the goal post to adults vs teens?

No, I think they are teens. That's why I am excluding them when I did the numbers of teens vs non-teens. Are you arguing that TC moved the goal posts between his topic title and his OP?

I Like Toast posted...

Then data would support it, which would be cited. Yet the information we do have shows people with families make up 25% of min wage which I showed days ago and the trolling OP still wants to act like his claim has any factual basis .

Okay, so you aren't stating that his post is wrong based on data, you're arguing that more than 1 in 4 doesn't count as often. Just say that, then.
---

But if 25 & under make up less than half of min. wage workers than by necessity the majority of min. wage workers are NOT teenagers. No?
---

Oh yeah, when I said often I didnt mean to imply most of them or anything. Sorry if thats how it came across.

My main point was that most min. wage workers arent teenagers working their first job.
---

I Like Toast posted...

The majority are high and college students

based on these kind of statements it just seems you are misunderstanding the BLS data, because most minimum wage workers are 25 and older. Where are you getting the idea that most are in high school or in college?
---

Balrog0 posted...

FWIW, EPI data says roughly 28% of minimum wage workers have children

No, it states 28% of people earning what they think the min wage should be at $10.10/hr are. Which means even as you increase wage the often, overwhelming often, have no family to take care of.
---

Balrog0 posted...

Where are you getting the idea that most are in high school or in college?

I Like Toast posted...

Education. Among hourly paid workers age 16 and older, about 4 percent of those without a high school diploma earned the federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of those who had a high school diploma (with no college), about 2 percent of those with some college or an associate degree, and about 1 percent of college graduates. (See table 6.)

Balrog0 posted...

Are you arguing that TC moved the goal posts between his topic title and his OP?

His statement is they are often adults with families. If were using adult as 18+ its irrelevant, since your including the people you're saying people are wrong to think are min wage workers.

Finishing high school makes you half as likely, finishing college a quarter as likely.

The typical minimum wage worker is in their early 20s, single, and without children. Or in other words, exactly what people think and op is trying to say is wrong.
---

I Like Toast posted...

No, it states 28% of people earning what they think the min wage should be at $10.10/hr are.

fair enough

I Like Toast posted...

Education. Among hourly paid workers age 16 and older, about 4 percent of those without a high school diploma earned the federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of those who had a high school diploma (with no college), about 2 percent of those with some college or an associate degree, and about 1 percent of college graduates. (See table 6.)

You really don't think this proves that "most minimum wage workers are in high school or college" do you? If so, explain it to me like I'm dumb.

I Like Toast posted...

The typical minimum wage worker is in their early 20s, single, and without children. Or in other words, exactly what people think and op is trying to say is wrong.

How do you figure this when more than half of the workers are 25+? The median age can't be under 25
---

SailorGoon posted...

I will admit why I'm probably more biased about this than anyone. For years I bussed tables or folded towels working minimum wage. They were shitty jobs for sure, but I was able to make ends meet. Of course I had to live frugally.

When people tell me minimum wage isn't liveable, I get skeptical. Are they living within their means? Because I feel like more often then not, unless they are a single parent, they aren't financially responsible. Of course minimum wage isn't liveable if you want to live in a nice neighborhood and have a car and nice things. Everyone does.

I wanted nice things too. So what I did was live within my means. Saved up my money, and went to school for a profitable career.

Min Wage was like 8 bucks at the time, but I managed to make it on my own. I just lived within my means. I think that if I can make it on my own in Cali then most people nationwide can do it too.

It sucked, but I wasn't in poverty. Had a really shitty place in Gardena which is Compton lite. I mean, my rent was barely hitting 700 a month. That should speak a lot since Cali isn't seen as a cheap place to live. Saved on insurance and payments since I relied on public transit. Didnt eat out to save costs on food. Like really, budget. Shit, I probably could've saved more if I roomed with someone. It sucks but you're not entitled to all the nice things with min wage job. There's so many to pick from and easily attainable. They aren't meant to be careers. They're stepping stones. All you need are the basic necessities.

Again, if it's not liveable then you either aren't living within your means or you've got mouths to feed. In which case I'd advocate for revised tax credits since those are geared to assist those with families.

And I'm not entirely against a wage increase. I just think that there are better alternatives. And I don't think that 15 is a good number. Cost of living isn't standardized so wages shouldn't be either. You wanna talk about what's fair or unfair but make people in rural areas close down their businesses because they can't tank the hits while Walmart can. Additionally now you have the guys working their min Wage jobs in Ohio or Iowa living the comfy bachelor life now when they were already getting a liveable wage and the single parents in LA are still struggling. Yes that's fair.

If there were to be a wage increase I don't think we should do a flat singular wage. I like the direction Oregon is going. They have 3 different minimum wages that account for cost of living and production etc. But before we do that I'd say try and work on the tax credits because iirc there are literally no risks or comparable disadvantages. If that doesn't work then maybe a min wage increase is necessary.

I'm just saying look at all our options and look at what the problem really is and see which option caters most to the real issue.

Thank you for giving such a thoughtful response. You criticized the idea of raising the minimum wage without having a psychotic who cares about fast-food/retail workers? attitude, which is more than I can say for most.
---

superman 2000 posted...

Thank you for giving such a thoughtful response. You criticized the idea of raising the minimum wage without having a psychotic who cares about fast-food/retail workers? attitude, which is more than I can say for most.

I mean, it's thoughtful, but the thoughts are effectively useless.

as I mentioned, SailorGoon is interpreting this as an issue that individuals can resolve on their own. while it can be done for some individuals in some cases, it's extremely unproductive to talk about the issues in that way when so many people are making minimum wage.

I've addressed the problem with that line of thinking numerous times from numerous people, and none of them have ever actually engaged with the idea beyond the "agree to disagree" cop-out. it's really frustrating and it prevents actual constructive dialogue on the issues

---

averagejoel posted...

superman 2000 posted...

Thank you for giving such a thoughtful response. You criticized the idea of raising the minimum wage without having a psychotic who cares about fast-food/retail workers? attitude, which is more than I can say for most.

I mean, it's thoughtful, but the thoughts are effectively useless.

as I mentioned, SailorGoon is interpreting this as an issue that individuals can resolve on their own. while it can be done for some individuals in some cases, it's extremely unproductive to talk about the issues in that way when so many people are making minimum wage.

I've addressed the problem with that line of thinking numerous times from numerous people, and none of them have ever actually engaged with the idea beyond the "agree to disagree" cop-out. it's really frustrating and it prevents actual constructive dialogue on the issues

Fair enough. What would you consider a viable solution?
---

superman 2000 posted...

Fair enough. What would you consider a viable solution?

there are a few.

I could see a job guarantee, coupled with strict regulation of wages, doing a lot of good. ideally the price of necessities like housing, food, and medicine would also be tightly regulated to prevent people making serious money from them.

whatever the case, in order for it to be an actual solution, it has to come from wide-ranging policy that has an effect on everyone

---

Why do we need to raise the minimum wage if everything's going to be free?

Edgioencarshela posted...

Why do we need to raise the minimum wage if everything's going to be free?

ohshit

averagejoel posted...

superman 2000 posted...

Thank you for giving such a thoughtful response. You criticized the idea of raising the minimum wage without having a psychotic who cares about fast-food/retail workers? attitude, which is more than I can say for most.

I mean, it's thoughtful, but the thoughts are effectively useless.

as I mentioned, SailorGoon is interpreting this as an issue that individuals can resolve on their own. while it can be done for some individuals in some cases, it's extremely unproductive to talk about the issues in that way when so many people are making minimum wage.

I've addressed the problem with that line of thinking numerous times from numerous people, and none of them have ever actually engaged with the idea beyond the "agree to disagree" cop-out. it's really frustrating and it prevents actual constructive dialogue on the issues

Yeah, but I don't think you addressed anything else I posted other than that. That was simply my attitude on the matter. Which is much easier to confront then previously mentioned counter plans.

As you and I said, for some this is a problem that can be self fixed. The issue can boil down to personal responsibility.

For others, like the aforementioned families and single parents, minimum wage just isn't enough and there's little more they can do about it.

However, as I said raising the minimum wage still won't be enough for those people. Cost of living varies all throughout the U.S. I live in LA county still and the living wage here for a single parent with only 1 child is around 30 an hour.

People say that raising the wage is for helping impoverished families. Yeah, you might bring some above the poverty line, but they're still not getting a living wage. You're alleviateing the burdens, but you aren't solving the problem. Not only do you fail to solve the problem, but youre also bringing in more risks and disadvantages. If you really care about working families and single parents then you'd know that the better thing to fight for is a revised EITC or CTC.

And again, if we must raise the wage, 15 all around is ridiculous. I'd be more inclined for having multiple minimum wages that are affected by urbanization/industialization/location etc
---

Prismsblade posted...

Shablagoo posted...

Prismsblade posted...

Omnislasher posted...

still waiting for that explanation of how younger people's labour is worth less

What labor?

Have you ever worked a minimum wage job? Serious question.

Yes, it's generally repetitive, low skill work literally anyone can do. Many of which eventually will be replaced by machines.

What's your point?

It's also a horrible work environment, with employees being overworked and underpaid, usually with bad management as well.

Teens don't work fast food jobs because the jobs are specifically for them. It's because they (and desperate adults) are the only ones willing to work them in the first place.

And good luck dealing with a machine when it fucks up your order.
---