Board 8 > Do you think michael jordan is the greatest basketball player ever?

(+) Yeah! (+)

And people try to act like thats some story about his competitiveness. Only in the social media age have people really found out about jordan..hes a massive narcissist who is just as diva as lebron.

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Egos and personalities aside let's just start looking at general statistics. In 2015-2016 the man went 27-8-8. Only 4 other players in the 70+ years of the NBA posted seasons like that and they all did it before the age of 29. Lebron did it, and it was back to back at ages 33-34 to boot.

Different take...
OK, below is more relevant and somewhat more complete clutch shooting data for ALL seasons of prime Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, and '97-'98 of MJ, for both rs and playoffs

Regular Season
Michael Jordan ('97-'98): 41.9% eFG%, .675 FTr, 52.9% TS
Kobe Bryant ('01-'11): 43.8% eFG%, .568 FTr, 54.3% TS
Dirk Nowitzki ('02-'11): 46.2% eFG%, .653 FTr, 58.4% TS
Lebron James ('06-'16): 51.7% eFG%, .667 FTr, 59.6% TS

Playoffs
Michael Jordan ('97-'98): 48.3% eFG%, .640 FTr, 57.4% TS
Kobe Bryant ('01-'11): 41.6% eFG%, .670 FTr, 53.9% TS
Dirk Nowitzki ('02-'11): 44.5% eFG%, .932 FTr, 61.9% TS
Lebron James ('06-'16): 47.4% eFG%, .614 FTr, 56.0% TS

Or we could compare a vast number of different things



VORP (Value over Replacement)



PER (Player Efficiency Rating)



I'll throw these in for fun

The thing this has shown me is that Tim Duncan is somehow underrated
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LeonhartFour posted...

The thing this has shown me is that Tim Duncan is somehow underrated

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Oh and speaking of "garb" teammates, here is a list of the top ten NBA finals champs in terms of lowest scoring supporting cast outside of the scoring leader. Notice anything?

10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG

I get where your coming from but this is not actually good information. The 90s was heavy ISO because of the rulings regarding Illegal Defense which forced 1 on 1s basically or automatically sent whoever was your best player to the line. Jordan was honestly the biggest benefactor of that rule in that era.

That being said. I don't believe Lebron is close to Jordan. I can see the Arguments for Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, and MAYBE Bird. But Lebron isn't a 2 way player. I don't believe someone with not great defense can be considered the greatest. Personally I think it's Kareem then Jordan but yea.
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Lebron on defense maybe isnt the best of all time, but to say he isn't a 2 way player is pretty unfair. I mean maybe now that hes in his mid 30s hes not on the same level, but when he was in his prime he certainly was a solid defender, and among the best for the era.

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Jordan had the decency to shave his head whereas Lebron continues to torment the world with his awful hairline. To me, this makes Michael the all time greatest.
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Lebron played great defense in Miami

He's a good defender (when he tries), but not elite or anything. When you consider his size and athleticism his defense leaves a bit to be desired. On the other hand, he plays in an era when defense is a bit of a lost art so you have to consider that.
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I AGREE fully with (Gary) Payton. I'm gonna say another thing too and go even further and SAY that John Stockton, in his prime, was a BETTER offensive force than Michael Jordan was in his prime. BLASPHEMY#%$#^&*( Nope, just the truth. And I'm gonna prove it! Now all off you are gonna say: "Pfff! Jordan in his best year averaged 37.1 ppg while Stockton in his best year averaged 17.2 ppg. OWNED!!!" No Contest. The G.O.A.T Wins by a landslide etc. NOT TRUE! In fact, FAAR from it. If you want to to calculate the full offensive contribution of a players you must also take into the account their assists*, their efficiency** and their arsenal of offensive tools*** a defender has to deal with. * Assists First let's calculate the average net worth of an assist in that era, which is above 2 pts and not exactly 2 points because you also have to take into the account the three point plays. In NBA, at that time, the ratio of field goals to 3 points made was around 13:1, so that puts the average worth of an assist at around 2.07 points. In today's times the ratio is closer to 10:1. Here I'm gonna list the best personal years of both players in the NBA: In '87 Jordan had 37.1 ppg and 4.6 ast (in 40 minutes) with 0.182 3pt% = 37.1 + 4.6*2.07 = 46,62 total combined points from goals and assists per game In '90 Stockton had 17.2 ppg and 14.5 ast (in 37.4 minutes!) with 0.416 3pt% = 17.2 + 14.5*2.07 = 47,21 total combined points from goals and assists per game So as you can clearly see, Stockton's offensive OUTPUT is straight up better than Jordan's just by BRUTE points/assists combined. * * Efficiency: It is widely known that Stockton was by far the most efficient PASSER, by FAR, out of all the point guards, not even Magic being able to match his best years with his. In fact, the only reason Stockton is #2 at efficiency per career behind Magic is because Magic retired early because of his HIV while Stockton grew old and his last years hurt his stats. Stockton IS the #1 & #1 in most assists Ever and in most Steals Ever by light years ahead of anyone else. Related to efficiency, the Jordan comparison and the combined points&assists per game above, I can also say that Jordan played more minutes than Stockton as I pointed out (40 min vs 37.4min). As a matter of fact, per 36 min Jordan has only 41,88 pts vs 45,58 of Stockton's * * * Offensive arsenal Although Jordan was extremely good at driving to the rim and a good free throw shooter, he was limited in everything else: Jordan's 3PT% in '87 was 0,182 while Stockton's 3PT% '90 was 0.416%.
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This was another dimension that Jordan didn't have. Not even late in his career did he even get close to John. Jordan's passing, although decent, was no where near Stockton's in numbers or efficiency. Although he may have made 5 assists on average, it would have taken him a lot more failed attempts than Stockton. As a matter of fact, even though Stockton made double Jordan's career assist and shot more 3 pointers than Jordan per game, he has the same turnovers. In a Payton vs Jordan match up, Payton could have ignored MJ passing and focus only on 1-v-1 defending because most of MJ's offensive came from his going to the basket, so if Paydon could guard him all game, as he stated "If I could guard him to the fullest", then he takes a big chunk from his points tally. In a Stockton vs Payton 1-v-1 match up, even if Payton makes the perfect one on one defense, since 55% of Stockton's offense is in his play making, that only does half the job. He also has to do an equally stellar defense to take away Stockton's passing channels. Payton had to chose his poison or do a crummy job on both. Basically, by not putting all his eggs in one basket as they say, Stockton's becomes that much harder to guard. Most of Jordan's passes came when he bogged down in the paint, so he either dished the ball out wide for a low % 3pt play or back in the center for a low % 2pt jump shot to... Pippen. Stockton always tried to hit the big man in the post or do a fundamental pick-n-roll. So what are you gonna ignore, Jordan to Pippen or Stockton to Malone?! The way Payton says it at the end and what he was trying to say was that after all those games where he guarded Stockton it was still tough for him than the fewer times he guarded MJ. That says something. When a quality defender guards you for years, he should eventually get better at defending you because he will learn your moves. Just like Bobby Fischer would eventually stop losing chess matches against weaker adversaries after playing them a couple of times, the better the opposing player, the longer taking to read their game. But because the way Stockton played, like Russell said about Wilt Chamberlain, Payton could only put a few speed bumps in Stockton's way. On the other hand, if he would have played Jordan more, he would have only gotten better at stopping him. By all means, as one of the best defenders in NBA history, Payton is entitled to feel that John Stockton was harder for him to guard than Michael Jordan.?
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Stockton is the probably the most underrated player of all time. He's my number 1 PG and one of my favorite players ever

Can't put him above MJ though
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MZero11 posted...

Stockton is the probably the most underrated player of all time. He's my number 1 PG and one of my favorite players ever

Can't put him above MJ though

yeah, and how can you put stockton above mj? mj beat stockton twice in the nba finals
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