Current Events > Why can't Hitman break through to the mainstream?

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's not exactly an unknown IP. It has had two movies based around it. It has easy to recognize imagery. It seemed to be big enough during the PS2/Xbox era and Absolution seemed to be a decently big success but Hitman 2016 and Hitman 2 seem to be incredibly niche titles.

Is it due to complexity or uniqueness? The lack of a big multiplayer focus? Not being an open world game?

I legit don't know what else they can do to make the games more accessible without completely neutering what it is. It sucks.
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Complexity. You have to be really precise and follow monotonous paths to get all those awesome YouTube moments
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darkprince45 posted...

Complexity. You have to be really precise and follow monotonous paths to get all those awesome YouTube moments

The game pretty much tells you how to do them these days.
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It's a stealth game, right? That kind of stuff will never be able to hold a massive amount of sway for too long. It's biggest days are likely behind it. Not without becoming a bit wacky.
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Honestly I've always found the games to be really hard from the getgo and therefore hard to get into.

I'm actually trying "Hitman" (the 2015...16? one) and the tutorials start off easy enough but then you get to that first mission and it's like "damn wtf I can't do any cheap tricks like I did in the tutorials" >_>.

Definitely takes a lot more patience. The lack of a quicksave feature and trying to learn all the specifics of the mechanics (like the hearing range and vision cones of guards) is a bit overwhelming because of that.
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King Rial posted...

It's a stealth game, right? That kind of stuff will never be able to hold a massive amount of sway for too long. It's biggest days are likely behind it. Not without becoming a bit wacky.

It is but it's more about getting the right disguise and finding your way to the target. Social stealth is probably a better term to describe it. It's more about blending in than hiding in the shadows.

I guess that's still not shoot bang enough for most gamers out there unfortunately.
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I love stealth in general, but the what makes the series unique is also its biggest flaw, at least before the 2016 reboot which I haven't played.

The maps are generally nonlinear and multipathed, which is nice, but once you know what to do, you've sucked most of the flavor out. Sure you can go for other routes to see what happens, but the puzzle is already solved, and often, the patience required to handle the rest of the content is annoying, because you're waiting to take action for something you already know how to do. It's like a red light on your gameplay ride. Cool the first time, annoying on replays.

I recently went through Blood Money again, because it was free from games with gold. The unlockable weapons serve almost no purpose. You either glitch them into making a stealth run feasible yet slower, or you're essentially turning it into a rushed mob hit instead of a classy stealth run. Which is its own kinda fun, but the novelty is cheap.
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Hitman 2 is really buggy, tbqh

It's been over a month and the trespassing system is still completely broken, isn't it?

little extra content
I can run through blood money on expert getting silent assassin on almost every level with little effort. because when I bought it in 2006 it was one of the games I got between birthday and christmas, so a lot of it is second nature

the new games, 2016 and 2018, are even worse in that regard. I love them and am having a blast, but who wants to buy a game with less than 8 maps and only a handful of really unique missions for each one? not even close to mainstream
it kinda puts them in a bind. if they made each level a third of its size they'd probably sell more because mainstream audiences would love 3 times as many maps, but they'd also lose a lot of the individuality of the franchise
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Guide posted...

I love stealth in general, but the what makes the series unique is also its biggest flaw, at least before the 2016 reboot which I haven't played.

The maps are generally nonlinear and multipathed, which is nice, but once you know what to do, you've sucked most of the flavor out. Sure you can go for other routes to see what happens, but the puzzle is already solved, and often, the patience required to handle the rest of the content is annoying, because you're waiting to take action for something you already know how to do. It's like a red light on your gameplay ride. Cool the first time, annoying on replays.

I recently went through Blood Money again, because it was free from games with gold. The unlockable weapons serve almost no purpose. You either glitch them into making a stealth run feasible yet slower, or you're essentially turning it into a rushed mob hit instead of a classy stealth run. Which is its own kinda fun, but the novelty is cheap.

The newer games have way more stuff to do. You've got the 'canon' story missions that you have way more opportunities than Blood Money did. Like it would take around 10 hours per mission to see them all. You've got elusive targets that are only available for a limited time. You've got Escalations that require you to kill targets (can be anyone in the map) with specific outfits and weapons along with other conditions. They tackled that issue for sure.

Youngster_Joey_ posted...

Hitman 2 is really buggy, tbqh

It's been over a month and the trespassing system is still completely broken, isn't it?

I played through right after launch on PC and didn't notice any issues.
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Hitman is always going to be a niche title in todays environment.

I'd argue that even back in the day it was niche, but it wasn't as noticeable because gaming wasn't as huge.
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Darmik posted...

I played through right after launch on PC and didn't notice any issues.

One of the early patches tried to make it so that you can be spotted by a target and still get silent assassin after killing them, assuming they didn't alert anyone else. But inadvertently, this made it so you can get SA even if you're found trespassing, provided you let the guard escort you out.
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Keep in mind when discussing Absolution's success:
- That game had a pretty wild pre-launch ad campaign that earned it a lot of attention
- It made a bunch of changes with the style that fans of the series didn't care for, and which have since been undone.
- Square still thought it was a failure.
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Antifar posted...

Darmik posted...

I played through right after launch on PC and didn't notice any issues.

One of the early patches tried to make it so that you can be spotted by a target and still get silent assassin after killing them, assuming they didn't alert anyone else. But inadvertently, this made it so you can get SA even if you're found trespassing, provided you let the guard escort you out.

Ahh I probably played through before that patch. I'd be reloading the game anyway.
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prince_leo posted...

little extra content
I can run through blood money on expert getting silent assassin on almost every level with little effort. because when I bought it in 2006 it was one of the games I got between birthday and christmas, so a lot of it is second nature

the new games, 2016 and 2018, are even worse in that regard. I love them and am having a blast, but who wants to buy a game with less than 8 maps and only a handful of really unique missions for each one? not even close to mainstream
it kinda puts them in a bind. if they made each level a third of its size they'd probably sell more because mainstream audiences would love 3 times as many maps, but they'd also lose a lot of the individuality of the franchise

The appeal of the new ones is actually the massive amount of content for each map, with the unlock system encouraging as many different ways to complete each level as possible. Not to mention the fully fleshed out added missions and the elusive targets that get added every few weeks.
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codey posted...

The appeal of the new ones is actually the massive amount of content for each map, with the unlock system encouraging as many different ways to complete each level as possible. Not to mention the fully fleshed out added missions and the elusive targets that get added every few weeks.

I mean, I agree with you. I just don't think mainstream gamers want to play a level over and over again
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codey posted...

The appeal of the new ones is actually the massive amount of content for each map, with the unlock system encouraging as many different ways to complete each level as possible.

Yeah, I think they've done a good job with the last two games of laying out that replaying levels is the point.
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Yeah it sucks that some people can't seem to comprehend the 'only six mission?!" thing.

I think Hitman 2016 has more content than all of the previous games combined. But if you're rushing through the main story you'd have no idea.

It's weird because nobody ever says that an open world game only has one level. Each level is a mini sandbox that has scripted routines built in.
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I'm a longtime Hitman fan

But the truth is, the re-use of maps ends up boring me pretty quick. Funny enough I think it worked much better when it was episodic.

I also give absolutely zero fucks about escalations. They feel like such filler busywork to me.
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D-Lo_BrownTown posted...

I'm a longtime Hitman fan

But the truth is, the re-use of maps ends up boring me pretty quick. Funny enough I think it worked much better when it was episodic.

I also give absolutely zero fucks about escalations. They feel like such filler busywork to me.

This is something I agree with as well. It's one of the few games that works as being episodic, because it gives you time to actually master and 100% the content, and by the time you have a new episode comes out.

The only escalation I did was one that unlocked me a silenced sniper, because I'm not even going to attempt a non silenced weapon in the game.
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Unfortunately people blamed the episodic model as a reason for why Hitman 2016 flopped. It did seem like Hitman 2 was still developed with it in mind though.

If we get Hitman 3 it'll be interesting to see what they come up with since episodic games seem to be dying. I'd be fine seeing a mix of smaller and larger levels throughout the game similar to Silent Assassin or Blood Money. Dunno if it'll happen now unfortunately.
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The escalations are what hooked me on Hitman 2016
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As somebody who spends a good amount of time on r/Hitman: everything about the episodic structure in 2016 and its remnants in 2 confuses the hell out of people. There are constant questions about the Legacy Pack, why levels aren't installing, whether this is a sequel or DLC...
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Antifar posted...

As somebody who spends a good amount of time on r/Hitman: everything about the episodic structure in 2016 and its remnants in 2 confuses the hell out of people. There are constant questions about the Legacy Pack, why levels aren't installing, whether this is a sequel or DLC...

Including the Hitman 2016 levels feels super pointless to me since absolutely none of the unlocks carried over. Yeah, I get it, you can play them with the Hitman 2 features...but I don't think they changed enough to warrant it.

I'm having a hard time 100% the Hitman 2 levels at this point, and now they expect me to do it for the 2016 levels again?

It's just like...I don't have time for this shit, especially at a time where Smash, Red Dead 2 just came out and RE2 is just around the corner.
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D-Lo_BrownTown posted...

I'm having a hard time 100% the Hitman 2 levels at this point, and now they expect me to do it for the 2016 levels again?

I don't think you get any unique unlocks from Hitman 2016 outside of a suit with a black tie. So unless you really dislike having Mk II stuff then no.
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Maybe it needs to stop being strictly stealth. Like, 47 is very obviously highly trained for everything yet we only do stealth. There need to be some segments, not often, where he's forced to go guns blazing. Because while Deus Ex is primarily stealth, guns blazing still feels, natural, for lack of a better word.
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^ that's what happened in Absolution, iirc.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Maybe it needs to stop being strictly stealth. Like, 47 is very obviously highly trained for everything yet we only do stealth. There need to be some segments, not often, where he's forced to go guns blazing. Because while Deus Ex is primarily stealth, guns blazing still feels, natural, for lack of a better word.

Ugh don't we have enough shooting games?

Like other Hitman games have had shooting segments for the finale and that's it. I'm fine with that. I don't want any outside of that. I don't really know how you could design a Hitman level that would work for both shooting and stealth without making it super linear like Absolution.
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I feel like Hitman 2 offers plenty of shooty shooty gameplay if you choose to go that way.

You have to take advantage of cover properly, but it's not like Hitman 1-Blood Money where you were completely fucked.
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Darmik posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Maybe it needs to stop being strictly stealth. Like, 47 is very obviously highly trained for everything yet we only do stealth. There need to be some segments, not often, where he's forced to go guns blazing. Because while Deus Ex is primarily stealth, guns blazing still feels, natural, for lack of a better word.

Ugh don't we have enough shooting games?

Like other Hitman games have had shooting segments for the finale and that's it. I'm fine with that. I don't want any outside of that. I don't really know how you could design a Hitman level that would work for both shooting and stealth without making it super linear like Absolution.

You asked why it isn't mainstream. I answered why it isn't mainstream. And I never saw what was so wrong about Absolution in the first place, honestly. Except for, and this goes back to my original post, too many kill everyone segments. Hitman can very easily go the Deus Ex route but purists won't let it then lament why it doesn't do good. I actually want more Hitman so I would gladly accept the change if balanced correctly.
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boxington posted...

^ that's what happened in Absolution, iirc.

And I liked it but there were too many parts where it was simply kill everything. There wasn't enough of the classic Hitman.
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tbh, I remember really enjoying Absolution.

and while its story was super whacky, I liked the focus on narrative.
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Absolution was enjoyable as a game, but it was a slap in the face to Hitman fans who had been waiting like six years for a Hitman game.

It also kind of sucked cause like it completely fucking derailed the entire story that had been building up.
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Deus Ex isn't really mainstream either though. Seems pretty dead now.

Hitman is at its most satisfying when you kill a target and leave without anyone knowing. Scripting scenarios where you get ambushed or caught goes against that. There's no real way to balance it. As soon as you script a shootout you're ruining that for people. This is why Absolution struggled as a Hitman game.

Hitman 2 and Blood Money does have a couple of scripted shootouts but there's no where near enough for someone to play the game for them. They're cool moments though. But they're not really suitable for the marketing since they're supposed to be surprising.
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I think Square Enix just sucks at advertising games like Hitman. It's possible it could break out of the niche market if it had the support.

Edit: just realized Hitman isn't published by Square anymore. Shit still applies though. It's never had good marketing.
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I think there's a Hitman TV show on the way. Hopefully that helps giving the series more exposure.

I don't think modern Hitman is as intimidating as a lot of people think. Might be hard to get away from that reputation since the older games could be hard to get into.
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Darmik posted...

I don't think modern Hitman is as intimidating as a lot of people think. Might be hard to get away from that reputation since the older games could be hard to get into.

I agree

Hitman is the easiest it has ever been between getting rid of a lot of bullshit mechanics, better AI, the glitches that benefit you, and tons and tons of walkthroughs being available through Youtube.

I think most gamers are just bottom of the barrel and only like the most hyped up overrated shit.

Which sucks cause it feels like they're trying to get them, and they just won't bite. I miss the old Hitman style when it was mostly in Europe and felt a lot more moody and atmospheric.
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Darmik posted...

I don't think modern Hitman is as intimidating as a lot of people think. Might be hard to get away from that reputation since the older games could be hard to get into.

Can you elaborate on this? I played Blood Money and loved the concept, but found it difficult to do well without a guide. I really want to play 2016 and 2, but Im afraid of not being good enough at the Hitman formula to enjoy them.
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vbty3 posted...

Can you elaborate on this? I played Blood Money and loved the concept, but found it difficult to do well without a guide. I really want to play 2016 and 2, but Im afraid of not being good enough at the Hitman formula to enjoy them.

There's legit a "handhold" mode that tells you where to go and what to do now if you get stuck, at least for the "main" methods of taking out targets.

There's still a lot of side challenges and stuff that don't do this, but the actual main game is really easy if you want it to be now.
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vbty3 posted...

Darmik posted...

I don't think modern Hitman is as intimidating as a lot of people think. Might be hard to get away from that reputation since the older games could be hard to get into.

Can you elaborate on this? I played Blood Money and loved the concept, but found it difficult to do well without a guide. I really want to play 2016 and 2, but Im afraid of not being good enough at the Hitman formula to enjoy them.

Yeah don't worry at all. There's a guided mode. Basically if you walk around the level you'll find 'opportunities' that open up an assassination possibility. You can choose if it gives you waypoints or just a general hint. It's a great way to learn a level. If you do all of the opportunities within one level you'll know most of it which then leads into accomplishing harder challenges if you want to go for it.

The game communicates with you a lot better than the older titles. You'll know when you're trespassing or who can see through your disguise. Even tells you if an action will blow your cover. You don't need to track targets on the map either.
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Is this 2016 or 2?
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vbty3 posted...

Is this 2016 or 2?

Both have it.
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Darmik posted...

vbty3 posted...

Is this 2016 or 2?

Both have it.

For that matter, 2 has all the levels from 2016 as well. It's free if you had 2016, and I think $20 or so if not.
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Because every game after Blood Money sucks and SE destroyed the IP irreparably
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i have hitman 2 in my steam profile and idk why...just noticed its like a expensive game too i wonder how i got it free i forget
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Roxborough4Ever posted...

i have hitman 2 in my steam profile and idk why...just noticed its like a expensive game too i wonder how i got it free i forget

You might just have the prologue, which is free.
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I just started playing 2016 but now see that all its content is in 2? So should I just pick up 2 and play "both" at once?? :|
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Hexenherz posted...

I just started playing 2016 but now see that all its content is in 2? So should I just pick up 2 and play "both" at once?? :|

Yes. You get all of the engine improvements in 2 and your unlocks carry over.
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I just started Hitman 1 last night so I don't even have any unlocks (literally just finished the tutorial missions lol).

hm.
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Hexenherz posted...

I just started Hitman 1 last night so I don't even have any unlocks (literally just finished the tutorial missions lol).

hm.

Yeah play them in Hitman 2.

I don't think you even need to buy it. Just download the Hitman 2 prologue for free and play the 2016 content using the 2 engine. Worth trying at least.
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