Current Events > Organized religion is predicated on fear, change my mind.

(+) Yeah! (+)

It abuses peoples' fears of death and uncertainty into doing whatever the leader of the religion wants. On top of that, most organized religions just so happen to have spreading the religion as one of their main tenants. What a shocking coincidence!
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Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

I'm talking specifically about organized religion.
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It's predicated on shared belief structured over time. Its function is to provide a foundation for unsolicited cooperation in large societies.

Bullet_Wing posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

Not organized religion. They keep their people in line with fear. You realize that's the entire purpose of the concept of Hell, right?

That sounds pessimistic. Organized religion is all about community. They dont even make a habit of mentioning Hell during service so the idea is absurd that fear is the factor

You realize this is a pretty stupid conspiracy theory, right?

Organized religions have this concept of hell to scare their followers and "keep them in line" ... for what exactly?
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I imagine in human history people engage in organized religion to alleviate fears of their own mortality.

Damn_Underscore posted...

You realize this is a pretty stupid conspiracy theory, right?

uhh
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agree
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ASithLord7 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

You realize this is a pretty stupid conspiracy theory, right?

uhh

How is it not a conspiracy theory?

Clearly in TC's view, organized religions aren't genuine, they all have some sort of ulterior motive.
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nah for the most part it is
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What is your definition of organized religion TC? Are Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox Catholicism, and the various denominations of Protestant Christianity all different organized religions or are they part of one organized religion?
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Damn_Underscore posted...

ASithLord7 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

You realize this is a pretty stupid conspiracy theory, right?

uhh

How is it not a conspiracy theory?

Clearly in TC's view, organized religions aren't genuine, they all have some sort of ulterior motive.

Control? Power? Do you have any idea how influential of a man the Pope is?
Damn_Underscore posted...

What is your definition of organized religion TC? Are Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox Catholicism, and the various denominations of Protestant Christianity all different organized religions or are they part of one organized religion?

They're all differently organized religions. There are some exceptions in the Protestant offshoots, but in general, they're all different organized religions.
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Human behavior in general tends to strongly be based on fear.
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People join a certain denomination because they want to be a part of a group (or their parents, grandparents, etc. wanted to and they were always around that culture).

But all of these organized religions, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. are based on someone/something which they believe has authority. You don't have to be a part of a certain denomination to follow that religion.
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EnterTheTekken posted...

I imagine in human history people engage in organized religion to alleviate fears of their own mortality.

In the ball park. Early Christians were persecuted by Rome and then when Rome became Christian, they were besieged by outsider violent tribes.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

People join a certain denomination because they want to be a part of a group (or their parents, grandparents, etc. wanted to and they were always around that culture).

The vast majority of people in most religious groups are indoctrinated from birth. There are exceptions, like Anabaptists, but they're far from the rule.
Damn_Underscore posted...

But all of these organized religions, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. are based on someone/something which they believe has authority. You don't have to be a part of a certain denomination to follow that religion.

If we're talking about organized religion, you absolutely have to be part of a denomination to follow that organized religion. Of course, there are miscellaneous followers of any religion, but again, they're the exception, not the rule.
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I was raised Christian, but it was a denomination that does not believe in eternal damnation. I think it made me a kinder person as a result.
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Garioshi posted...

If we're talking about organized religion, you absolutely have to be part of a denomination to follow that organized religion. Of course, there are miscellaneous followers of any religion, but again, they're the exception, not the rule.

You misunderstood what I said. If read the Gospels and wanted to follow Jesus and Christianity, there's nothing saying I have to also follow the rules of Roman Catholicism.
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EnterTheTekken posted...

I imagine in human history people engage in organized religion to alleviate fears of their own mortality.

Fear of death and natural disaster definitely influenced the contents of the belief, but the benefit of an organized system of belief in-and-of-itself is largely to allow a lot of people over a large expanse of land to cooperate without immediately breaking down.

Damn_Underscore posted...

Garioshi posted...

If we're talking about organized religion, you absolutely have to be part of a denomination to follow that organized religion. Of course, there are miscellaneous followers of any religion, but again, they're the exception, not the rule.

You misunderstood what I said. If read the Gospels and wanted to follow Jesus and Christianity, there's nothing saying I have to also follow the rules of Roman Catholicism.

Yes, but you wouldn't be a part of an organized religion, and I never claimed otherwise. Also, please respond to my point about indoctrination.
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in fact, the concept of eternal damnation is never even explicitly stated in the bible, yet so many christians hold this belief. I think it is a fear tactic left over remnant of past catholicism which was known to incorporate pagan principles into their christianity to win followers
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Kanye West is more influential than the Pope.
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Garioshi posted...

Also, please respond to my point about indoctrination.

I think indoctrination has a very negative connotation and you're assuming that the transfer of religious beliefs to the next generation (or to non-believers in general) is malicious. And I would say that it can be malicious, but it's usually not.
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well the thing is catholicism
took a lot of pagan principles and beliefs
and incorporated it into "christianity"
in order to gain more followers
the concept of shevat or hell comes from pagan religions
basically the catholic church was fond of retconning the bible
they even changed the holy day of sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first
sunday because many pagan religions worshipped the sun god
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Jesus

I was raised Christian, but it was a denomination that does not believe in eternal damnation. I think it made me a kinder person as a result.

Catholics believe everyone has one last trial after death to ask for forgiveness from the big Dog himself.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

Garioshi posted...

Also, please respond to my point about indoctrination.

I think indoctrination has a very negative connotation and you're assuming that the transfer of religious beliefs to the next generation (or to non-believers in general) is malicious. And I would say that it can be malicious, but it's usually not.

Indoctrination is indoctrination, no matter how you slice it. You are imposing values and beliefs onto someone who is too young to evaluate their veracity or their morality.
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Jesus directly talks about hell, or "eternal fire".

Hell is just a name, it's not necessarily anything like Dante's Inferno.
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Teaching anything is essentially indoctrination. The reality is that we teach children what we think is correct long before they're able to evaluate the claims for themselves.

Damn_Underscore posted...

Jesus directly talks about hell, or "eternal fire".

Hell is just a name, it's not necessarily anything like Dante's Inferno.

that is a misconception. he talks of everlasting separation from God which is eternal death
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Dragonblade01 posted...

Teaching anything is essentially indoctrination. The reality is that we teach children what we think is correct long before they're able to evaluate the claims for themselves.

Correct, because we wouldn't be able to function as a society otherwise, but Damn_Underscore is implying that most people join organized religions of their own volition.
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the suffering comes from the knowledge that you were wrong and you will not partake in God's kingdom
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Most organized religions are only a few hairs away from being cults.

catboy0_0 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

Jesus directly talks about hell, or "eternal fire".

Hell is just a name, it's not necessarily anything like Dante's Inferno.

that is a misconception. he talks of everlasting separation from God which is eternal death

Matthew 5:22 - But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca, is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 25:41 - Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I was going to exclude all parables and metaphors, but I had to include this:

Mark 9:47-49 - And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched. (Reference to Isaiah 66:24)

Everyone will be salted with fire.
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I see that you were raised not believing in eternal damnation, so I don't think I'll ever be able to change your mind.
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Mareen posted...

Most organized religions are only a few hairs away from being cults.

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Damn_Underscore posted...

catboy0_0 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

Jesus directly talks about hell, or "eternal fire".

Hell is just a name, it's not necessarily anything like Dante's Inferno.

that is a misconception. he talks of everlasting separation from God which is eternal death

Matthew 5:22 - But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca, is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 25:41 - Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I was going to exclude all parables and metaphors, but I had to include this:

Mark 9:47-49 - And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched. (Reference to Isaiah 66:24)

Everyone will be salted with fire.

the eternal fire means your spirit will always be remembered and estinguished
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I would argue that it's not just fear - organised religion is inherently tainted by human evil. Like there's nothing holy about those fucking megachurches in America, with like heated seats and giant LCD screens and shit, where these shitty southern pastors echo their interpretation of the Lord's word through a $5000 stereo system. And you have these tall, old buildings that are tax exempt, which expects a "tithe" from members of the church which is like a percentage of your salary - it doesn't sit right with me. Like there's nothing wrong with modern day comforts and luxuries, or having a place to gather, but I find it really gross how churches exist to secure funding from its small base of dedicated followers and to show off all of this old, intricately made and probably super expensive religious paraphernalia that you don't really need to have faith.

There have been a few churches in my town that are much more contemporary and casual, I can respect that - but I find it disrespectful for folks to go bigger and grander and more expensive with their churches, as if any amount of gold leaf is going to satiate their lord and saviour. It's tacky.

And you have these awful people using religion as a shield for racism, discrimination and continued ignorance - because a lot of churches are just personal interpretations of the Lord's word, biased by the personal mindset of the preacher or clergyman delivering the message and by the community of people who frequent the church and internalise/spread its message. A church and it's constituents are ultimately a reflection of the community around it, meaning that if your base consists of deeply entitled people who think "I have the Lord on my side, so I can do what I feel is morally just in his name" or who are deeply racist and believe in the inferiority of other races (and that only you and others like you are worth anything), then your branch of Christianity is going to be twisted or exploited to further those flawed human ideals. All that a church does is bring like-minded people together to share similar beliefs, and a lot of human biases and evils get thrown into the mix as well.

If you abide by the teachings, then you know that Jesus was dirt poor and he slummed it with people who society considered undesirable - and his story of martyrdom and religious oppression is propagated by a city-state that's full of knowledge and wealth that is hoarded and accessible to only the religious elite. I find something excessive and disgusting about that, like a corporation using a gay teen's story of homophobia and eventual suicide to sell cookies or some shit like that. Sell a struggle to elicit emotions from others and exploit that for monetary gain and societal power.

A place of worship can be a crack in the wall under an overpass, with maybe a candle or two to mark its presence. Religion is a personal conviction that you weather through rain, hail and shine, and all religion, ultimately, is knowledge and belief - most of the rest is just window dressing. Knowledge and belief is all you need to be a good Christian. But when you bring a power structure into it, and a structure or place of worship that's unique to your religion, into the mix? That's when things start going downhill. Once it becomes an organisation, then it's become tainted by human evil. They'll use fear, ignorance, greed and vanity to hold a base of blindly devout fans, and they'll tax them for their servitude. As soon as religion is given a standardised form or pattern to follow, that's when the corruption starts.

Religion, in theory, is good. But human intervention and the interpretation of said religion by a "higher" person to "lower" followers is where evil begins.
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there is no proof it lasts for an eternity. in fact the bible says it is until they recognize jesus as the Lord
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catboy0_0 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

catboy0_0 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

Jesus directly talks about hell, or "eternal fire".

Hell is just a name, it's not necessarily anything like Dante's Inferno.

that is a misconception. he talks of everlasting separation from God which is eternal death

Matthew 5:22 - But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca, is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 25:41 - Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I was going to exclude all parables and metaphors, but I had to include this:

Mark 9:47-49 - And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched. (Reference to Isaiah 66:24)

Everyone will be salted with fire.

the eternal fire means your spirit will always be remembered and estinguished

I'm not going to say your interpretation is wrong, because it's not like I interpret everything Jesus says word for word, but I think you're making much more of a stretch with your interpretation than I am.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

I'm not going to say your interpretation is wrong, because it's not like I interpret everything Jesus says word for word, but I think you're making much more of a stretch with your interpretation than I am.

I think it's more of a stretch to interpret it as eternal hell
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catboy0_0 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

I'm not going to say your interpretation is wrong, because it's not like I interpret everything Jesus says word for word, but I think you're making much more of a stretch with your interpretation than I am.

I think it's more of a stretch to interpret it as eternal hell

Obviously I disagree. Like I said, I didn't include any parables or metaphorical sayings in which he talks about things being thrown into the fire (in other words, destroyed; not ignited spiritually). Here's a very fitting quote from John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:11-12 - I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

If you've been reading all this, TC, I don't fear hell. If going to heaven requires that you at least attempt to duplicate the lifestyle of Jesus or follow the Torah Law, etc., that's just the way it is. It's not like we can do anything about it besides doing what we think is right in life.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

catboy0_0 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

I'm not going to say your interpretation is wrong, because it's not like I interpret everything Jesus says word for word, but I think you're making much more of a stretch with your interpretation than I am.

I think it's more of a stretch to interpret it as eternal hell

Obviously I disagree. Like I said, I didn't include any parables or metaphorical sayings in which he talks about things being thrown into the fire (in other words, destroyed; not ignited spiritually). Here's a very fitting quote from John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:11-12 - I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

If you've been reading all this, TC, I don't fear hell. If going to heaven requires that you at least attempt to duplicate the lifestyle of Jesus or follow the Torah Law, etc., that's just the way it is. It's not like we can do anything about it besides doing what we think is right in life.

I don't believe in a creator that would create eternal suffering
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Bullet_Wing posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

Not organized religion. They keep their people in line with fear. You realize that's the entire purpose of the concept of Hell, right?

Glad to see some people aren't gullible enough to believe everything they read.
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Fossil posted...

Bullet_Wing posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

Not organized religion. They keep their people in line with fear. You realize that's the entire purpose of the concept of Hell, right?

Glad to see some people aren't gullible enough to believe everything they read. Hell is the biggest lie organized religion has ever gotten away with.

Churches dont make a habit of teaching fire and brimstone in sermon. Are you sure you arent the gullible one. Hell, the Bible does t even mention hell. It does mention an an end of days but thats it. Only third rate priests teach Hell.

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Fossil posted...

Bullet_Wing posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

Not organized religion. They keep their people in line with fear. You realize that's the entire purpose of the concept of Hell, right?

Glad to see some people aren't gullible enough to believe everything they read. Hell is the biggest lie organized religion has ever gotten away with.

Churches dont make a habit of teaching fire and brimstone in sermon. Are you sure you arent the gullible one. Hell, the Bible does t even mention hell. It does mention an an end of days but thats it. Only third rate priests teach Hell.

I assume you're speaking from experience with having visited every church in the world to make a bold claim like this, yes? The concept of hell is universally the single biggest reason most people are turned off by religion.
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Fossil posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Fossil posted...

Bullet_Wing posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

Not organized religion. They keep their people in line with fear. You realize that's the entire purpose of the concept of Hell, right?

Glad to see some people aren't gullible enough to believe everything they read. Hell is the biggest lie organized religion has ever gotten away with.

Churches dont make a habit of teaching fire and brimstone in sermon. Are you sure you arent the gullible one. Hell, the Bible does t even mention hell. It does mention an an end of days but thats it. Only third rate priests teach Hell.

I assume you're speaking from experience with having visited every church in the world to make a bold claim like this, yes? The concept of hell is universally the single biggest reason most people are turned off by religion.

No. And i can maybe buy into the notion non denominations teach that. And other religions as well. But christianity as a whole doesnt talj about Hell. You get an hour a week for most people. Most priests have better things to say. And most people arent turned odf by religion. You do know that universally, religious people are the majority

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Fossil posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Fossil posted...

Bullet_Wing posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

Not organized religion. They keep their people in line with fear. You realize that's the entire purpose of the concept of Hell, right?

Glad to see some people aren't gullible enough to believe everything they read. Hell is the biggest lie organized religion has ever gotten away with.

Churches dont make a habit of teaching fire and brimstone in sermon. Are you sure you arent the gullible one. Hell, the Bible does t even mention hell. It does mention an an end of days but thats it. Only third rate priests teach Hell.

I assume you're speaking from experience with having visited every church in the world to make a bold claim like this, yes? The concept of hell is universally the single biggest reason most people are turned off by religion.

No. And i can maybe buy into the notion non denominations teach that. And other religions as well. But christianity as a whole doesnt talj about Hell. You get an hour a week for most people. Most priests have better things to say. And most people arent turned odf by religion. You do know that universally, religious people are the majority

Who are you speaking for right now to make claims that "christianity as a whole doesn't talk about Hell" or "most people aren't turned off by religion"????

Are you even Christian yourself? Because I am. I know what I see and hear from experience. I've met plenty of people who were turned off by the church (in general) because of the preaching of fire and brimstone. You know how nuts some churches in the deep south can get with preaching? Good heavens. It's bad enough some rando-8 karma account is even going this hard into a topic on religion as it is.
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Fossil posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Fossil posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Fossil posted...

Bullet_Wing posted...

___b0xxY2J0sHBK posted...

Why do you feel that way? Religion is based on a joint feeling of spirituality and love

Not organized religion. They keep their people in line with fear. You realize that's the entire purpose of the concept of Hell, right?

Glad to see some people aren't gullible enough to believe everything they read. Hell is the biggest lie organized religion has ever gotten away with.

Churches dont make a habit of teaching fire and brimstone in sermon. Are you sure you arent the gullible one. Hell, the Bible does t even mention hell. It does mention an an end of days but thats it. Only third rate priests teach Hell.

I assume you're speaking from experience with having visited every church in the world to make a bold claim like this, yes? The concept of hell is universally the single biggest reason most people are turned off by religion.

No. And i can maybe buy into the notion non denominations teach that. And other religions as well. But christianity as a whole doesnt talj about Hell. You get an hour a week for most people. Most priests have better things to say. And most people arent turned odf by religion. You do know that universally, religious people are the majority

Who are you speaking for right now to make claims that "christianity as a whole doesn't talk about Hell" or "most people aren't turned off by religion"????

Are you even Christian yourself? Because I am. I know what I see and hear from experience. I've met plenty of people who were turned off by the church (in general) because of the preaching of fire and brimstone. You know how nuts some churches in the deep south can get with preaching? Good heavens. It's bad enough some rando-8 karma account is even going this hard into a topic on religion as it is.

Statistically speaking, a huge majority is religious. Thats just a fact. As far as Hell goes, ive been to most denominations here, and i know its my experience but nobody brings up hell in serman which shouldn't be a shock considering its not in the bible