Current Events > Liberal smugness will destroy the left

(+) Yeah! (+)

So, here's an article worth discussing.

https://unherd.com/2018/07/liberal-smugness-will-destroy-left/

A warning, it's confrontational, pointy, and you may not agree. But I think it surfaces a valid point. That the left is essentially cannibalising itself, to the benefit of the right.

It gets plus points for directing you at the excellent works of Thomas Frank.

I particularly liked this paragraph

But what if people did indeed think that there was something about Brexit that was more important that GDP? Why is it impossible to consider that possibility, that some people were indeed prepared to accept a relatively poorer country as a price worth paying for a more independent one? That some things are more important than money?

Goes to a particular bugbear of mine, that we view each other increasingly on purely economic terms , and not on social worth. My contention is that 40 years of neoliberal economics in the West have made us unable to discuss our worth in anything other than economic terms. And in doing so we lose our fundamental humanity.
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refmon posted...

I particularly liked this paragraph

So people voted for brexit under a pretense that it would fix a perceived immigration problem that it actually doesn't fix and introduces a whole new problem.

I'm willing to entertain the notion that there's an immigration problem, and I'm also willing to entertain the idea of Brexit.

But Brexit as a response to the immigration problem is a non sequitur. It's like putting a bandaid over unwounded skin to treat your sinus infection.

In summary, yes there are things more important than GDP but Brexit doesn't help anyone and people refuse to have honest conversations about it which is why all the smugness.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

refmon posted...

I particularly liked this paragraph

So people voted for brexit under a pretense that it would fix a perceived immigration problem that it actually doesn't fix and introduces a whole new problem.

I'm willing to entertain the notion that there's an immigration problem, and I'm also willing to entertain the idea of Brexit.

But Brexit as a response to the immigration problem is a non sequitur. It's like putting a bandaid over unwounded skin to treat your sinus infection.

That's still a narrow-minded assessment. What if the issue wasn't "immigration", but "sovereignty"?

For example, northern UK fisherman are capped at how much they can fish by the EU because portions of UK waters have been sliced off by the EU and given to other countries so they can fish, too, without going past the global cap to prevent depopulation. How is that not a legitimate complaint? UK fisherman are having trouble making a living because their own native waters have been given to another country by a government they didn't elect and with no means to appeal.

People laser-focus on the immigration piece because you get to feel superior, but brexit was far, FAR more than just "money and muslims".
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"Liberals" and "The Left" are two different groups.
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averagejoel posted...

"Liberals" and "The Left" are two different groups.

Especially when we're talking about Europe
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Smug people dont realize theyre smug, watch libs continue to devour themselves
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Yes as we all know, "liberal smugness" isn't totally old talking point that the right has hurled for at least, oh, 100 years or so
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s0nicfan posted...

That's still a narrow-minded assessment. What if the issue wasn't "immigration", but "sovereignty"?

For example, northern UK fisherman are capped at how much they can fish by the EU because portions of UK waters have been sliced off by the EU and given to other countries so they can fish, too, without going past the global cap to prevent depopulation. How is that not a legitimate complaint? UK fisherman are having trouble making a living because their own native waters have been given to another country by a government they didn't elect and with no means to appeal.

These are valid concerns. However while I admittedly have not crunched numbers, I'm finding it difficult to anticipate Fishermen being able to make more money by cutting out their trade partners in exchange for more of the thing they're trying to sell.

Surely they don't sell everything they catch. Some of it perishes.
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s0nicfan posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

refmon posted...

I particularly liked this paragraph

So people voted for brexit under a pretense that it would fix a perceived immigration problem that it actually doesn't fix and introduces a whole new problem.

I'm willing to entertain the notion that there's an immigration problem, and I'm also willing to entertain the idea of Brexit.

But Brexit as a response to the immigration problem is a non sequitur. It's like putting a bandaid over unwounded skin to treat your sinus infection.

That's still a narrow-minded assessment. What if the issue wasn't "immigration", but "sovereignty"?

For example, northern UK fisherman are capped at how much they can fish by the EU because portions of UK waters have been sliced off by the EU and given to other countries so they can fish, too, without going past the global cap to prevent depopulation. How is that not a legitimate complaint? UK fisherman are having trouble making a living because their own native waters have been given to another country by a government they didn't elect and with no means to appeal.

People laser-focus on the immigration piece because you get to feel superior, but brexit was far, FAR more than just "money and muslims".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/we-have-been-hijacked-fishermen-feel-used-over-brexit

And European unity, peace, stability, and cooperation is more important than a few rural fishermen, sorry.
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I think the economy should take priority over everything else. Ensuring people have good jobs and economic security is the most effective way at improving overall happiness.
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The Great Muta 22 posted...

Yes as we all know, "liberal smugness" isn't totally old talking point that the right has hurled for at least, oh, 100 years or so

That and coastal elites
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The Great Muta 22 posted...

Yes as we all know, "liberal smugness" isn't totally old talking point that the right has hurled for at least, oh, 100 years or so

it's definitely a real thing the idea that the two extremes must be equally bad because they're equally far from the center, and that the middle of the road is always the best option though the word "Liberal" often gets used incorrectly
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Tyranthraxus posted...

s0nicfan posted...

That's still a narrow-minded assessment. What if the issue wasn't "immigration", but "sovereignty"?

For example, northern UK fisherman are capped at how much they can fish by the EU because portions of UK waters have been sliced off by the EU and given to other countries so they can fish, too, without going past the global cap to prevent depopulation. How is that not a legitimate complaint? UK fisherman are having trouble making a living because their own native waters have been given to another country by a government they didn't elect and with no means to appeal.

These are valid concerns. However while I admittedly have not crunched numbers, I'm finding it difficult to anticipate Fishermen being able to make more money by cutting out their trade partners in exchange for more of the thing they're trying to sell.

Surely they don't sell everything they catch. Some of it perishes.

But now you're going back to GDP, when the idea was that there are things more important than GDP. The fact that citizens can't fish off their own waters with no means to appeal is a significant issue separate from GDP but broader than "immigration", and it's one of many cases where EU overreach has bothered people.

The percent of UK law that comes from the EU is between 13% and 60%, depending on your interpretation (see link below). Those are laws that impact UK citizens, but yet are not drafted or voted on by UK elected officials. UK citizens also have no means of appeal, at least in the form of electing new officials. The fundamental question of Brexit was "do we have a right to self-govern"? That's a serious question worth serious debate, and not just a bunch of dumb people being fooled.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105
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Maeiv posted...

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Yes as we all know, "liberal smugness" isn't totally old talking point that the right has hurled for at least, oh, 100 years or so

That and coastal elites

Or "Cosmopolitans", although Stalin was quite fond of that dog whistle too
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Just because its an old talking point doesnt make it any less true, even liberals are starting to criticize their own for it
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averagejoel posted...

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Yes as we all know, "liberal smugness" isn't totally old talking point that the right has hurled for at least, oh, 100 years or so

it's definitely a real thing the idea that the two extremes must be equally bad because they're equally far from the center, and that the middle of the road is always the best option though the word "Liberal" often gets used incorrectly

My eyes just rolled so far back into my head they fell out my ass.
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ASithLord7 posted...

averagejoel posted...

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Yes as we all know, "liberal smugness" isn't totally old talking point that the right has hurled for at least, oh, 100 years or so

it's definitely a real thing the idea that the two extremes must be equally bad because they're equally far from the center, and that the middle of the road is always the best option though the word "Liberal" often gets used incorrectly

My eyes just rolled so far back into my head they fell out my ass.

stop being smug you will make conservatives reinstate slavery and it will be all your fault!!
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Haven't we come far enough in society to acknowledge that concerning yourself with another's "smugness" is a sign of one's own insecurities?
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always lol at articles by conservatives that boil down to "hey l i h e r a l s, you want to win? the secret is to let us do everything we want and not say anything about it!", like it's not transparent as fuck

refmon posted...

and not on social worth

damn, why is my dog goin nuts all of a sudden?
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liberal smegma will destroy the left
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BiggLaw posted...

Haven't we come far enough in society to acknowledge that concerning yourself with another's "smugness" is a sign of one's own insecurities?

I dont know, dont we first have to acknowledge being smug is an insecurity? Seems like we havent even done step 1 yet, or else there wouldnt be so many smug liberals
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Liberal smugness is just that thing that conservatives cite when the results of their votes predictably blows up in their face and they have trouble swallowing all that crow.
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Yes, if there's one thing the "not left" on CE are lacking in, it's smugness.
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Liberal Slugma
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If I never have to read the phrase "the left is cannibalizing itself" again, I'll die a happy man
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Will? It already has.
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A_Good_Boy posted...

Liberal smugness is just that thing that conservatives cite when the results of their votes predictably blows up in their face and they have trouble swallowing all that crow.

To be fair, even the NYT acknowledges the problem of the smug liberal, but you can go ahead pretending its non existent if it makes you feel better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/opinion/sunday/smug-liberals-conservative-trolls.html
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Kazi1212 posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Liberal smugness is just that thing that conservatives cite when the results of their votes predictably blows up in their face and they have trouble swallowing all that crow.

To be fair, even the NYT acknowledges the problem of the smug liberal, but you can go ahead pretending its non existent if it makes you feel better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/opinion/sunday/smug-liberals-conservative-trolls.html

CE really has to do a lot better not putting stock into opinion pieces.
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What about conservative smugness about liberals losing every election due to smugness

A_Good_Boy posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Liberal smugness is just that thing that conservatives cite when the results of their votes predictably blows up in their face and they have trouble swallowing all that crow.

To be fair, even the NYT acknowledges the problem of the smug liberal, but you can go ahead pretending its non existent if it makes you feel better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/opinion/sunday/smug-liberals-conservative-trolls.html

CE really has to do a lot better not putting stock into opinion pieces.

To be fair, its definitely worth more than whatever you have to say about the issue.
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The left eats its own
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Smugness plus a total inability to handle criticism plus a total lack of self awareness is a lethal combination.
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wasn't Brexit a conservative push?? idk euro politics.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Smugness plus a total inability to handle criticism plus a total lack of self awareness is a legal combination.

But enough about the right, this topic is about people whining about liherals laughing at them.
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s0nicfan posted...

But now you're going back to GDP, when the idea was that there are things more important than GDP. The fact that citizens can't fish off their own waters with no means to appeal is a significant issue separate from GDP but broader than "immigration", and it's one of many cases where EU overreach has bothered people.

I mean they don't own those Waters. I don't know how else to say that.

I own my land but I don't own the air around it. Other people need to use that air and if I were to do something like start a giant bonfire on my driveway and fuck up the air my neighbors would have some serious issues with it.

Everyone needs some fish out of the ocean and we need to share it responsibly.
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A_Good_Boy posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

Smugness plus a total inability to handle criticism plus a total lack of self awareness is a legal combination.

But enough about the right, this topic is about people whining about liherals laughing at them.

Not sure if deliberately ironic
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A better handling of the subject without the right wing concern trolling

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism
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Coffeebeanz posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

Smugness plus a total inability to handle criticism plus a total lack of self awareness is a legal combination.

But enough about the right, this topic is about people whining about liherals laughing at them.

Not sure if deliberately ironic

I'm still trying to figure out if you're doing it on purpose as well.
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Fortunately, I make sure I spend all my smugness points into my interactions on CE so I don't bring that into the real world. :)
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Antifar posted...

A better handling of the subject without the right wing concern trolling

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

This is a great article. If you know who Chris Hedges is, Death of the Liberal Class explores the history of liberalism outlined in the article in depth.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

s0nicfan posted...

But now you're going back to GDP, when the idea was that there are things more important than GDP. The fact that citizens can't fish off their own waters with no means to appeal is a significant issue separate from GDP but broader than "immigration", and it's one of many cases where EU overreach has bothered people.

I mean they don't own those Waters. I don't know how else to say that.

I own my land but I don't own the air around it. Other people need to use that air and if I were to do something like start a giant bonfire on my driveway and fuck up the air my neighbors would have some serious issues with it.

Everyone needs some fish out of the ocean and we need to share it responsibly.

You can't simultaneously argue that they don't have a right to own that water because it's like air, but a foreign entity does have the right to tell them what to do with it. In your example, everyone in your neighborhood is still under one country and one set of laws. The EU would be like if Canada started telling Texas how much oil it could pull.

But now you're simply arguing for forced redistribution of assets. That's fine, but to get back to my original point, hopefully you can see how that's a much bigger and more important debate than the people who try and trivialize brexit.

Edit: and just to clarify, they literally do on those waters. Every nation is allowed to claim ownership of waters up to a certain number of miles from Shore. The issue is not that the fishermen have to take orders from the UK government. It's that the fishermen have to take orders from a totally different legal entity outside of the UK government.
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It's what lost them the most recent election, their self-righteousness is naseauting but effective at sabotaging their chances.
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2000-2008 Liberals: "Conservatives are self righteous holier than thou authoritarians who just want to push their morals on everyone!"

2008+ Liberals: "Hold my avocado"
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averagejoel posted...

"Liberals" and "The Left" are two different groups.

But most people make the assumption that theyre the same group

This is why Trump won
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s0nicfan posted...

You can't simultaneously argue that they don't have a right to own that water because it's like air, but a foreign entity does have the right to tell them what to do with it. In your example, everyone in your neighborhood is still under one country and one set of laws. The EU would be like if Canada started telling Texas how much oil it could pull.

No. It's more like Canada telling Minnesota how much they're allowed to frack. And they agreed to a treaty saying they had that authority.

Of course the situation isn't really comparable to any hypothetical USA scenario as USA has only 2 neighbors. The EU is a giant cluster of countries and they have more in common with states relative to the EU than they do as a discrete country.

So a slightly more appropriate comparison would be like asking if Kentucky has the right to just irrigate off the Mississippi River so hard it dries up downstream.
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republicans are rednecks

Coffeebeanz posted...

2000-2008 Liberals: "Conservatives are self righteous holier than thou authoritarians who just want to push their morals on everyone!"

2008+ Liberals: "Hold my avocado"

you really should try reposting a joke from somewhere other than your grandma's facebook page some day
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CrimsonRage posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

2000-2008 Liberals: "Conservatives are self righteous holier than thou authoritarians who just want to push their morals on everyone!"

2008+ Liberals: "Hold my avocado"

why do you do this

She's off her meds again.
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