Current Events > what even is the conflict in Star Wars now. Why are they fighting?

(+) Yeah! (+)

The Empire was not gone after 6. They were beat on Jakku

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire
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RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

The sad laughable irony is the empire made sense since palpatine literally rose in the republic and gained both wealth and power over time until he revealed himself.

Unless "The First Order" had more money, rss, and power then the empire it makes zero sense on how they could become so large, powerful, un noticed/investigated, AND design "Star Killer Base" with no one knowing.

Palpatine ruled with an iron fist, fear, and oppression, how anyone that won against the empire would not be extremely vigilant, or pro active to make sure shit did not repeat itself is baffling.

Hell even after WW1 the allies kept prepping and building up military assets, rss, and put out feelers to make sure if another huge war started they could deal with it. When WW2 broke out yes Nazi Germany struck France and Britain hard cause the French and British were the people who were the biggest threat in WW1. Russia and the USA plus a lot of resistance fighters however turned that shit around and the Nazis lost because people remembered how bad WW1 was and that they needed to be ready to fight if it happened again.

Snoke has apparently been plotting for a while in the outer realm. I guess they always had these resources, but were hiding and waiting for the proper time to attack the rest of the galaxy.
And the toppling of the empire and the following failing governments was the perfect time for Snoke to take advantage. This was explained in a comic I guess.

I'd imagine the movies will never explain this because the average star wars movie goer doesn't care about the plot and just wants to watch things explode and hear corny "deep" one-liners

cjsdowg posted...

The Empire was not gone after 6. They were beat on Jakku

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire

yeah, reading the wikia makes the plot of the films make way more sense.

Its odd that they chose to make the movies completely incoherent and instead put all the plot in comic books

But I guess its better than no explanation at all

and using the Outer realm actually makes sense

all this shit came from seemingly nowhere because Snokw basically came from knowhere. A place mostly unknown to the mainstream. Which means a lot of things could have been happening behind the scenes this whole time using the lores rules

The empire could barely construct 2 deathstars, how in the fuck could even they afford "Star Killer Base" ?!, when they lost the first Deathstar it was a serious blow to the empire, losing 2 means the design was seriously flawed and when the second deathstar was not even finished being built I find it extremely unbelievable that Palpatine would have rss/money to even begin much less complete much of Star Killer Base.
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Milkman5 posted...

outer realm

have you considered learning some star wars lore before getting upset about it
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averagejoel posted...

Milkman5 posted...

outer realm

have you considered learning some star wars lore before getting upset about it

I dont read the books

Milkman5 posted...

averagejoel posted...

Milkman5 posted...

outer realm

have you considered learning some star wars lore before getting upset about it

I dont read the books

the Outer Rim is mentioned... pretty regularly in the movies and TV series
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I only remimber the outer rim from episode 2. When Obi wan goes there to get the clones

Darmik posted...

The Resistance is trying to keep a democracy/Republic. The New Order wants a return to an Empire style regime.

one thing that annoys me is the Resistance name. it doesn't really make sense. what are they resisting? they won. the Republic should be dominant again and in fact I think they supposedly ARE. and it's the Empire remnants trying to take back power. so the Empire remnants should be called the Resistance. not the other way around.

Ok. Spoilers for the Aftermath book series and the Bloodlines novel. In the trilogy that takes place immediately after episode 6 the imperial bureaucracy has fallen apart and the Moffs, Generals, and Admirals are all doing their own thing and only cooperating when they have to. One guy, Gallius Rax, a very powerful but mysterious, imperial grand admiral is working behind the scenes to unite the remnants.

Little does anyone know that Rax is operating under what is called "the contingency". A plan that was set up by Palpatine and known only to Rax. The goal of the contingency was as follows: If Palpatine were ever to die, he didn't want the empire to remain. Rax's job was to destroy it, and in it's destruction find the best that the empire had to offer and recruit them into the thing that was eventually supposed to replace it. Rax gathers the remnants of the empire to Jakku, at the same time he lures the New Republic fleet there as well for the purpose of having the two fleets fight it out and hopefully destroying each other in the process. Rax has already diverted a bunch of troops, ships, and resources (the best of what was left) to a hidden place in wild space that Palpatine had scouted out years prior and plans to go out and join them, to become the leader.

The fleets fight, the republic wins barely. Rax is caught by some heroes, along with an Imperial admiral who wasn't down with Rax's plan. Rax get's killed but the Admiral takes the transport that Rax was going to use and joins the hidden imperial remnant in wild space. This remnant is what eventually grows into The First Order. General Hux's father was the architect behind the new imperial stormtrooper program.

Skip ahead a bunch of years to the bloodlines book. The Republic senate has basically split into two factions. Populists (who favor a weak central government) and Centrists (who favor a more powerful chancellor with more authority). To discredit Leia (a prominent populist) the truth about Vader being her father is leaked and she is basically politically blacklisted. This is because Leia has basically stumbled across a plot involving the First Order (even though she doesn't really know what it is yet). The first order has been hiding and silently recruiting all these years, helping keep the senate fighting amongst itself and keeping the Republic weak and ineffective. Their plan is to foment local rebellions using militia groups that it's funding that the weak republic government will be unable to deal with. Then the First Order will come in and save the day and restore order to the government.

Leia knows something bad is coming, but isn't sure what, but knows that the Republic will be ill-equipped to deal with it, so she gathers up people that are loyal to her, and they start putting together resources for their own paramilitary group which will eventually become the resistance.

The origins of Snoke or how the First Order's return to the Galaxy comes about haven't been addressed in any of the books or comics that I've read.
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Zikten posted...

Darmik posted...

The Resistance is trying to keep a democracy/Republic. The New Order wants a return to an Empire style regime.

one thing that annoys me is the Resistance name. it doesn't really make sense. what are they resisting? they won. the Republic should be dominant again and in fact I think they supposedly ARE. and it's the Empire remnants trying to take back power. so the Empire remnants should be called the Resistance. not the other way around.

They're not a part of the Republic. The Republic doesn't have an official army.
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It's a Sci fi space opera with laser swords and space wizards aimed at Selling lots and lots of toys.

Dont think too much into it
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Milkman5 posted...

Why did Snoke use storm troopers then. How is he affiliated with the empire? why wouldn't his Army look different and why would they represent the empire if he organized the first order in secret?

it makes more sense for Snoke to be the next leader than it does for him to make a fake Empire mock up copying their designs with an enslaved child army

Brand recognition my dude, it was the driving forcw of George Bush Jr campaign
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Darmik posted...

Zikten posted...

Darmik posted...

The Resistance is trying to keep a democracy/Republic. The New Order wants a return to an Empire style regime.

one thing that annoys me is the Resistance name. it doesn't really make sense. what are they resisting? they won. the Republic should be dominant again and in fact I think they supposedly ARE. and it's the Empire remnants trying to take back power. so the Empire remnants should be called the Resistance. not the other way around.

They're not a part of the Republic. The Republic doesn't have an official army.

well that's just massive stupidity
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I genuinely like and enjoy TLJ despite its faults, but the underlying plot contrivance that Star Wars movies need to have Rebels fighting the Empire really weakens the entire bone structure of the sequel trilogy. I get that a lot of the details of the backstory of the OT would appear similarly vague, but you get a pass when you're an actual original story. The sequels are so reliant on the imagery of the OT, but then ask you take in the story as if it exists in a vacuum, and to disregard questions like TC's. You can't make a movie about a Darth Vader fanboy tracking down Luke Skywalker's lightsaber and then get uppity when people call you out on how basically none of this backstory gets shown or explained anywhere but a bunch of shitty books no one's gonna read.
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Milkman5 posted...

RebelElite791 posted...

The Empire was destroyed in 6?

Ok so I just checked the wiki and what other posters are saying is right.

The Empire WAS destroyed in episode 6. I don't know why people who don't even know the fucking plot are making fun of me for not knowing the plot.

The Empire was defeated at the end of 6 and one of the reasons Snoke made his army look like the storm troopers, were to try and enlist Imperial Sympatherizers and old higher-up members.

So the reason this different army looks like the Storm Troopers, is for "strategic" reasons. And the Empire is completely gone and now it's Snoke's army trying to take advantage of the situation

Lolwhat?

Also its obvious to anyone the empire would not dissolve overnight. Devasting loss yes but the rebellions lost a ton of its forces too.

Plenty of Wars have major turning points but rage on for quite awhile after even when victory is not really feasible.
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pikachupwnage posted...

Lolwhat?

Also its obvious to anyone the empire would not dissolve overnight. Devasting loss yes but the rebellions lost a ton of its forces too.

Plenty of Wars have major turning points but rage on for quite awhile after even when victory is not really feasible.

You know it's obvious to anyone that ramming ships at your enemies at lightspeed would be an extremely cost effective and devastating attack but it took them three different republics to think of it apparently.

Fahren posted...

You know it's obvious to anyone that ramming ships at your enemies at lightspeed would be an extremely cost effective and devastating attack but it took them three different republics to think of it apparently.

I don't think sacrificing ships and killing everyone on board would be all that cost effective.
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Fahren posted...

You know it's obvious to anyone that ramming ships at your enemies at lightspeed would be an extremely cost effective and devastating attack but it took them three different republics to think of it apparently.

I think they will retcon that in Episode 9.
They will say that their ships had some special quality that made them vulnerable to being warped speed'd into or some dumb shit like that

Darmik posted...

I don't think sacrificing ships and killing everyone on board would be all that cost effective

You'd also think that but apparently it's pretty cost effective to have an entirely autonomous army. which also apparently never thought of ramming.

Darmik posted...

Fahren posted...

You know it's obvious to anyone that ramming ships at your enemies at lightspeed would be an extremely cost effective and devastating attack but it took them three different republics to think of it apparently.

I don't think sacrificing ships and killing everyone on board would be all that cost effective.

There were droid ships in the prequels

Make just a couple of those and use them on strategic targets

Like idk the death star that was about to murder the entire rebellion

Also come on surely someone is capable of programming autopilot to ram enemy ships at hyperspeed after they peace out in an escape pod
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Darmik posted...

I don't think sacrificing ships and killing everyone on board would be all that cost effective.

It's a single ship. They lose tons of ships every battle.... tons of people die every battle...
You can even have a droid fly the ship...

How could anyone argue it isn't the best option for every battle?

Has there ever been a battle in star wars that was won by the good guys without losing a single ship?

Why would you build giant space ships that have weapons for the sole purpose of ramming other ships in lightspeed? That means you'd have to constantly be building more and more ships.

DarthAragorn posted...

Like idk the death star that was about to murder the entire rebellion

What gives you the idea that would work? What ship would they have used for this? The Death Star was supposed to be impenetrable.

If it happened constantly it would probably be a lot easier to counter too.
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Darmik posted...

Why would you build giant space ships that have weapons for the sole purpose of ramming other ships in lightspeed? That means you'd have to constantly be building more and more ships.

you're about dumber than a box of rocks aren't you

Darmik posted...

Why would you build giant space ships that have weapons for the sole purpose of ramming other ships in lightspeed? That means you'd have to constantly be building more and more ships.

DarthAragorn posted...

Like idk the death star that was about to murder the entire rebellion

What gives you the idea that would work? What ship would they have used for this? The Death Star was supposed to be impenetrable.

If it happened constantly it would probably be a lot easier to counter too.

In TLJ their plan is to fly some crap speeders into a mini death star laser

They couldn't have sent a single mid sized cruiser into the original death star's laser, at hyperspeed?
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I rewatched the scene.

The First Order didn't think she was going to kamikaze them. They thought it was a distraction. They even knew she was about to go light speed. They specifically were ordered to fire on the escape pods instead. By the time they realized what she was doing it was too late for them to do anything. Even if they shot her down beforehand she would have distracted them long enough for the escape pods to get away. That was all that really mattered. She got lucky destroying them.

So building up ships and droids to pilot kamikaze ships (that are the right size and in the right position to do damage) in the hope that these ships are too distracted probably isn't feasible.

Also it's just a movie. Star Wars space battles and travel aren't there to be realistic.

DarthAragorn posted...

They couldn't have sent a single mid sized cruiser into the original death star's laser, at hyperspeed?

According to the plans they had no.

Also wouldn't the Death Star just...shoot them down?
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Darmik posted...

So building up ships and droids to pilot kamikaze ships (that are the right size and in the right position to do damage) in the hope that these ships are too distracted probably isn't feasible.

Also it's just a movie. Star Wars space battles and travel aren't there to be realistic.

my man you're trying but it ain't working

with one large ship she smashed the largest single ship in the star wars universe as well as like two or three other star destoyers. with lightspeed ramming you could disable star destroyers with single x-wings. it doesn't have to be realistic, but it breaks their own realism

Fahren posted...

Darmik posted...

So building up ships and droids to pilot kamikaze ships (that are the right size and in the right position to do damage) in the hope that these ships are too distracted probably isn't feasible.

Also it's just a movie. Star Wars space battles and travel aren't there to be realistic.

my man you're trying but it ain't working

with one large ship she smashed the largest single ship in the star wars universe as well as like two or three other star destoyers. with lightspeed ramming you could disable star destroyers with single x-wings. it doesn't have to be realistic, but it breaks their own realism

Yeah because they weren't shooting at her.

In most circumstances they would be. They detected her entering lightspeed and made the decision to ignore it.
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Darmik posted...

Yeah because they weren't shooting at her.

In most circumstances they would be. They detected her entering lightspeed and made the decision to ignore it.

do it a system over. do it with a squadron of x-wings. do it with literal hyperdrives with wings

it breaks the canon my dude i'm sorry it's so hard for you to accept

Fahren posted...

do it a system over.

Have the movies established they could aim it to be that accurate?

Fahren posted...

do it with a squadron of x-wings.

X-Wings have crashed into ships all the time and nothing happens. They're probably not big enough to crash through the ships walls. Anything they could feasibly take out probably wouldn't be worth it or would be hard to hit.

Fahren posted...

do it with literal hyperdrives with wings

Same as above
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Fahren posted...

you're dumber than a box of rocks

You really think the Empire would die just because you chopped off the head?
It was too big with too many greedy commanders, they most likely had multiple internal conflicts for years. Seeing how big the universe is, some parts probably didnt even know that the Emperor had died for years.
As for keep using stormtroopers and tie fighters...
...the production lines already existed. It would cost too much resources to do any major changes. And why change something that works and keeps spreading fear?
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Couldn't lightspeed ramming simply start a safe distance away from enemy fire? Even if the empire managed to detect a ship coming at them at the speed of light, and even if they somehow had the reaction time to somehow fire a weapon that was also somehow fast enough to hit something going the speed of light, the shattered remains of the light speed traveling ship would still be going the speed of light, and still rip apart whatever it was aiming at.

I should also take this opportunity to mention that the ship is traveling the speed of light; Any indication that the ship is coming at all would be moving at the EXACT SAME SPEED as the ship itself.

So, any ship with lightspeed could safely ram any enemy ship if the lightspeed started outside of a detectable range, and there is nothing the victim could do besides pick a god and pray; heck they can't even do this because they won't know about it until after it hits.
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CarefreeDude posted...

Couldn't lightspeed ramming simply start a safe distance away from enemy fire? Even if the empire managed to detect a ship coming at them at the speed of light, and even if they somehow had the reaction time to somehow fire a weapon that was also somehow fast enough to hit something going the speed of light, the shattered remains of the light speed traveling ship would still be going the speed of light, and still rip apart whatever it was aiming at.

I should also take this opportunity to mention that the ship is traveling the speed of light; Any indication that the ship is coming at all would be moving at the EXACT SAME SPEED as the ship itself.

So, any ship with lightspeed could safely ram any enemy ship if the lightspeed started outside of a detectable range, and there is nothing the victim could do besides pick a god and pray; heck they can't even do this because they won't know about it until after it hits.

I don't remember if it was in Clone Wars or Rebels, but at one point either the Separatists or the Empire had the technology to pull ships out of hyperspace
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averagejoel posted...

I don't remember if it was in Clone Wars or Rebels, but at one point either the Separatists or the Empire had the technology to pull ships out of hyperspace

that's the point of the interdictor cruiser except those are clearly designed to pull ships out of lightspeed like a cherrypicker and not for stopping lightspeed ramming. ramming is an obvious attack that all of the previous writers simply didn't entertain because of the obvious holes it would poke in the universe.

of course since rian johnson and his team of hack writers are idiots and are too focused on epic scenes they fucked up the entire canon

Fahren posted...

averagejoel posted...

I don't remember if it was in Clone Wars or Rebels, but at one point either the Separatists or the Empire had the technology to pull ships out of hyperspace

that's the point of the interdictor cruiser except those are clearly designed to pull ships out of lightspeed like a cherrypicker and not for stopping lightspeed ramming. ramming is an obvious attack that all of the previous writers simply didn't entertain because of the obvious holes it would poke in the universe.

of course since rian johnson and his team of hack writers are idiots and are too focused on epic scenes they fucked up the entire canon

this isn't the only time in star wars that ships have been rammed into other ships as a last-ditch effort. how is it any different with a hyper drive?
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It seems the Interdictor vessel is expanded universe and no longer canon? In order for one of these to stop lightspeed ramming, it would have to be between the target and the lightspeed vessel. It looks like it works using gravity wells? Reading up on this, it looks like these gravity wells could be just as dangerous as something going lightspeed, if it needs to create enough gravity to stop something from going lightspeed. it woudl basically be a little black hole ship.

And even if one of these were in the way, using lightspeed raming twice would get past it. Gravity would draw whatever is moving towards it directly into it, destroying it, and then the second ship would be free to ram away
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averagejoel posted...

this isn't the only time in star wars that ships have been rammed into other ships as a last-ditch effort. how is it any different with a hyper drive?

because with a hyperdrive you can set coordinates and send a mass-accelerated slug hurtling at a target from systems away with no counter? it's the same concept as throwing a baseball at someone versus shooting them.

are you guys intentionally dense or do you actually have no common sense?

CarefreeDude posted...

It seems the Interdictor vessel is expanded universe and no longer canon?

it's still canon. it was definitely in at least one of the TV series.

Fahren posted...

averagejoel posted...

this isn't the only time in star wars that ships have been rammed into other ships as a last-ditch effort. how is it any different with a hyper drive?

because with a hyperdrive you can set coordinates and send a mass-accelerated slug hurtling at a target from systems away with no counter? it's the same concept as throwing a baseball at someone versus shooting them.

are you guys intentionally dense or do you actually have no common sense?

that would require:
1. knowing the exact hyperspace coordinates of the place on the target ship they want to ram
2. the target ship doesn't move at all while they're performing the jump
3. the ramming ship is large enough to do significant damage to the target ship

honestly it's probably not worth the trouble

but even if it was, the idea of a kamikaze star destroyer is cool as fuck
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averagejoel posted...

1. knowing the exact hyperspace coordinates of the place on the target ship they want to ram
2. the target ship doesn't move at all while they're performing the jump

Death Star? Hoth? Coruscant? Kuat Drive Yards? I could keep going.

averagejoel posted...

3. the ramming ship is large enough to do significant damage to the target ship

how could a bullet do any damage to a person they're so small >:(

Fahren posted...

Death Star? Hoth? Coruscant? Kuat Drive Yards? I could keep going.

are you seriously suggesting that the rebels in episode 4 could have destroyed the death star by ramming an x wing into it
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averagejoel posted...

Fahren posted...

Death Star? Hoth? Coruscant? Kuat Drive Yards? I could keep going.

are you seriously suggesting that the rebels in episode 4 could have destroyed the death star by ramming an x wing into it

Could have at least damaged the laser

I mean, that was their whole plan on the salt planet
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