Current Events > "Laws won't stop shootings cause criminals don't follow laws"

(+) Yeah! (+)

Holy fucking shit

Ive seen this phrase too many fucking times everytime theres a shooting. Where are people getting this logic?
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That's why we punish people who break the laws.
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Didn't most of the schools in mass shootings ban guns from the premises?

That's why we need to get rid of all laws, people break them anyway
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Just look at the war on drugs! That worked!
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No reason to imprison otherwise non-law breakers, whereas there is a reason to imprison murders outside of misusing a gun. That's the point.
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Let's start breaking people instead
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The line of thought is "we need stricter laws right now to save the children." The rebuttal is that there are no laws that can be enacted that that would do anything in the short term. There is literally nothing that can be done right now to stop school shootings. Even if you did a full gun ban, it would probably take literally hundreds of years to collect them all.

They're just not looking at the big picture.

"The schools ban the guns already!"
"It's a Second Amendment right!"
"We need to fight the Tyranny!"
Etc. etc.

Even when no other Western country has this problem and the solution is staring us in the face, it'll never change. Kids lives aren't important enough to save.

I'm not saying we should ban guns, but "Criminals will break the law anyway" is a terrible argument unless you are an anarchy advocate.
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It sounds like youre in disagreement. Whats your rebuttal?
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silentwing26x posted...

Didn't most of the schools in mass shootings ban guns from the premises?

Isn't that most schools?
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Just put no guns permitted signs everywhere! That'll work!
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KarmaMuffin posted...

Even when no other Western country has this problem

No other Western country has ever had this many guns in circulation for multiple centuries at a time.

That argument is tiresome.

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

KarmaMuffin posted...

Even when no other Western country has this problem

No other Western country has ever had this many guns in circulation for multiple centuries at a time.

That argument is tiresome.

If we blame the guns, then it stands to reason that Serbia should have roughly half as many mass shootings per capita or so. There's been approximately one.

Yemen, however, is fucking up - even worse than 'murrica.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/nyt-shows-how-not-analyze-mass-shooting-data/
https://i0.wp.com/live-nr-2017.pantheonsite.io/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/NYT202-1.png?resize=664%2C543&ssl=1

Criminals are just gonna break laws, we shouldn't even have laws!
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Questionmarktarius posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

KarmaMuffin posted...

Even when no other Western country has this problem

No other Western country has ever had this many guns in circulation for multiple centuries at a time.

That argument is tiresome.

If we blame the guns, then it stands to reason that Serbia should have roughly half as many mass shootings per capita or so. There's been approximately one.

Yemen, however, is fucking up - even worse than 'murrica.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/nyt-shows-how-not-analyze-mass-shooting-data/
https://i0.wp.com/live-nr-2017.pantheonsite.io/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/NYT202-1.png?resize=664%2C543&ssl=1

To be fair. Guns aren't the sole problem, but they are a part of the issue. A country where guns are plentiful and not hard to get will run into the problem of people shooting each other. Especially when we treat guns like toys and many people think the only way they can defend themselves is by shooting the other party.
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RoboLaserGandhi posted...

No other Western country has ever had this many guns in circulation for multiple centuries at a time.

Correct.

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

That argument is tiresome.

No it's not. You're basically saying that nothing will change if we increase gun control to other countries levels because of how many there are. But that's not true.
It will wake a while, possibly past our lifetimes, to see change. But we shouldn't just give up because we won't see the benefits.

I'm tired of a bunch of inbred hicks getting to shoot some targets every weekend is more important literal innocent childrens lives.

There is nothing wrong with naturally instituting better regulation. I think the main point of contention over arguments like these is that everyone is on a different page of the issue. The quote in the topic is used to rebut people who claim that massive gun regulation will do anything important right now. That is honestly probably the smallest part of the issues. We need real mental health reform, not just the parroted line, and we need to stop this news culture that worships every shooter.

Asherlee10 posted...

KarmaMuffin posted...

I'm tired of a bunch of inbred hicks getting to shoot some targets every weekend is more important literal innocent childrens lives.

While firearms do make for a great hobby, one of the major purposes of one is defense. Firearms aren't just made for people to shoot at firing ranges. Those are just practice in the event you have to defend yourself in a situation like a home invasion.

Yes, we should all be well armed for the very very small chance someone invades your house. Frankly, I don't think being paranoid is a good reason to own a gun.

Don't get me wrong either. It's not that guns can't be a good way to defense yourself. It's just not necessary for majority of people and really shouldn't be the primary decision to own a gun.
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KarmaMuffin posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

No other Western country has ever had this many guns in circulation for multiple centuries at a time.

Correct.

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

That argument is tiresome.

No it's not. You're basically saying that nothing will change if we increase gun control to other countries levels because of how many there are. But that's not true.
It will wake a while, possibly past our lifetimes, to see change. But we shouldn't just give up because we won't see the benefits.

I'm tired of a bunch of inbred hicks getting to shoot some targets every weekend is more important literal innocent childrens lives.

https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A5.html
There you go.

Asherlee10 posted...

While firearms do make for a great hobby, one of the major purposes of one is defense. Firearms aren't just made for people to shoot at firing ranges. Those are just practice in the event you have to defend yourself in a situation like a home invasion.

Most people don't have home invasions. There's a higher risk of a kid shooting themselves with a gun than the home being invaded.
Criminals tend to strike when people aren't home, it's not worth it to go when people are there unless they have a target. In which case it tends to be people you know, who would be someone that you'd find harder to shoot in most cases.

Not to mention that changing the law would make it harder for criminals to get a hold of a gun. Most people don't have dark underworld contacts, especially if guns become more restricted. Thus it'll become even less likely for people to pose a threat.

Are anti 2nd amendment people willing to kill people to take their guns and if so what weapon will they use?
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Almost every mass shooting happened in a place where guns were prohibited.

Banning guns only disarms responsible law abiding gun owners.
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MedzXVIII posted...

Are anti 2nd amendment people willing to kill people to take their guns and if so what weapon will they use?

I love the anti-Second Amendment people. You want to see the biggest Republican landslide in history, push that rhetoric harder.
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KarmaMuffin posted...

They're just not looking at the big picture.

"The schools ban the guns already!"
"It's a Second Amendment right!"
"We need to fight the Tyranny!"
Etc. etc.

Even when no other Western country has this problem and the solution is staring us in the face, it'll never change. Kids lives aren't important enough to save.

What is the solution 'staring us in the face?'
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MaverickXeo posted...

KarmaMuffin posted...

They're just not looking at the big picture.

"The schools ban the guns already!"
"It's a Second Amendment right!"
"We need to fight the Tyranny!"
Etc. etc.

Even when no other Western country has this problem and the solution is staring us in the face, it'll never change. Kids lives aren't important enough to save.

What is the solution 'staring us in the face?'

Convince 38 states to repeal or modify the 2nd Amendment. Any other "solution" is almost certainly going to be disastrous.

only cops should have guns
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AlephZero posted...

only cops should have guns

I thought cops are bad people who murder the innocent
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"think of the children!"

I can think of a dozen ways better to save their lives before gun control.
Mandate vaccines.
Free medical care for < 18y/o (I'm probably willing to go UHC or public option)
Autonomous cars.
End the war on drugs.
Better physical/dietary education into adulthood
blah blah blah

Guns only kill a few hundred kids a year. Taking our rights is a non-starter.

Yes we can focus on more than 1 issue but if we were only going to pass 1 bill, any of the above with be 10 times as effective at saving lives and not a Constitutional issue.
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KarmaMuffin posted...

Most people don't have home invasions.

well you said it man

it's definitely we don't have home invasions so we shouldn't have guns
not we have no home invasions for the possibility of guns
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We as a country have accepted that a couple of dead schoolchildren every month is the blood sacrifice for our freedom.

Not their freedom of course, theyre dead with their brains splattered over the classroom walls.

And every morning we perform the ritual - stand straight, face the symbol, right hand over our heart, and repeat the sacred oath. I pledge allegiance..., and it has to be the oath with God aka The Supreme Being, The Creator, The Lord.
Amen
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

I can think of a dozen ways better to save their lives before gun control.
Mandate vaccines.
Free medical care for < 18y/o (I'm probably willing to go UHC or public option)
Autonomous cars.
End the war on drugs.
Better physical/dietary education into adulthood
blah blah blah

tbf there probably aren't too many people who are against these who are also pro gun control
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SSJCAT posted...

Just look at the war on drugs! That worked!

/topic
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Questionmarktarius posted...

MaverickXeo posted...

KarmaMuffin posted...

They're just not looking at the big picture.

"The schools ban the guns already!"
"It's a Second Amendment right!"
"We need to fight the Tyranny!"
Etc. etc.

Even when no other Western country has this problem and the solution is staring us in the face, it'll never change. Kids lives aren't important enough to save.

What is the solution 'staring us in the face?'

Convince 38 states to repeal or modify the 2nd Amendment. Any other "solution" is almost certainly going to be disastrous.

That will not fix the problem, and it is not a valid solution. What do you do with those who already have guns? What do you do for the people who do not care if they legally can own said gun or not?

The solution is not simple. If you look at statistics in the US, there has been an influx of 'mass shootings' in the past 30/40 years (that is still rising rapidly)... the laws were not changed, so what happened? It has nothing to do with the second amendment.
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gna647 posted...

Holy fucking shit

Ive seen this phrase too many fucking times everytime theres a shooting. Where are people getting this logic?

The logic is only criminals will have guns...

The fact you heard it so many times and it never sunk in...really scares me
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iPhone_7 posted...

We as a country have accepted that a couple of dead schoolchildren every month is the blood sacrifice for our freedom.

Not their freedom of course, theyre dead with their brains splattered over the classroom walls.

And every morning we perform the ritual - stand straight, face the symbol, right hand over our heart, and repeat the sacred oath. I pledge allegiance..., and it has to be the oath with God aka The Supreme Being, The Creator, The Lord.
Amen

Mods should ban this but they wont
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gna647 posted...

Holy fucking shit

Ive seen this phrase too many fucking times everytime theres a shooting. Where are people getting this logic?

I believe in fact that shooting a bunch of people is breaking a law. Probably where the logic comes from.
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You're right! Why have ANY laws!
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We already have laws against murder and unjustifiable harming of another person. Why do we need more laws when they mainly exist to enable us to punish those that should rightfully be punished for their acts?
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Paragon21XX posted...

We already have laws against murder and unjustifiable harming of another person. Why do we need more laws when they mainly exist to enable us to punish those that should rightfully be punished for their acts?

Because, somewhere along the way, we've allowed righteous indignation to become a justifiable excuse to implement laws.

hockeybub89 posted...

I'm not saying we should ban guns, but "Criminals will break the law anyway" is a terrible argument unless you are an anarchy advocate.

Criminals will break the law.

Only people who obey the law will turn in their guns.

Ban guns

Criminals are now the only ones with guns.
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KarmaMuffin posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

No other Western country has ever had this many guns in circulation for multiple centuries at a time.

Correct.

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

That argument is tiresome.

No it's not. You're basically saying that nothing will change if we increase gun control to other countries levels because of how many there are. But that's not true.
It will wake a while, possibly past our lifetimes, to see change. But we shouldn't just give up because we won't see the benefits.

I'm tired of a bunch of inbred hicks getting to shoot some targets every weekend is more important literal innocent childrens lives.

It's pretty fucking stupid to exact laws that target potential issues hundreds of years out that may or may not even exist by then regardless.