Current Events > Factory farming is unspeakably grotesque and should be banned.

(+) Yeah! (+)

CiIantro posted...

It takes fewer resorces to produce plant protein. You don't need meat to live, and historically it was more of a luxury item reserved for special occaisions.

No shit Sherlock, we could live off the equivalent of dog food, but we humans are petty and actually care about taste. Imagine that.
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

Make chicken and eggs more expensive and then what the heck are they going to eat?

... Fruits and Vegetables?

To be fair, those are insanely expensive in some places. Like, I used to live on the prairies and quality fruits and veggies were super expensive most of the year because the growing season was like 2-3 months and everything had to be shipped across the country from California.

Indias chicken farms use the strongest antibiotics currently known:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/01/indias-farmed-chickens-dosed-with-worlds-strongest-antibiotics-study-finds

As if India can get any more disgusting.

LordFarquad1312 posted...

CiIantro posted...

It takes fewer resorces to produce plant protein. You don't need meat to live, and historically it was more of a luxury item reserved for special occaisions.

No shit Sherlock, we could live off the equivalent of dog food, but we humans are petty and actually care about taste. Imagine that.

Dude, calm down. Cilantro is not being insanely aggressive for once. We are having a nice discussion.

This is why we can't have nice things.

voldothegr8 posted...

Looks like someone saw the documentary for the first time.

I really don't care, it tastes too good to give up.

i'm all for laboratory grown meat if it taste the same or if not better. and price is equal or even less.
---

kingdrake2 posted...

voldothegr8 posted...

Looks like someone saw the documentary for the first time.

I really don't care, it tastes too good to give up.

i'm all for laboratory grown meat if it taste the same or if not better. and price is equal or even less.

Will in-vitro meat actually be affordable, or just another trend amongst the wealthy?
---

LordFarquad1312 posted...

kingdrake2 posted...

voldothegr8 posted...

Looks like someone saw the documentary for the first time.

I really don't care, it tastes too good to give up.

i'm all for laboratory grown meat if it taste the same or if not better. and price is equal or even less.

Will in-vitro meat actually be affordable, or just another trend amongst the wealthy?

I'm pretty sure the wealthy are going to avoid it at all costs.
---

Dash_Harber posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

Make chicken and eggs more expensive and then what the heck are they going to eat?

... Fruits and Vegetables?

To be fair, those are insanely expensive in some places. Like, I used to live on the prairies and quality fruits and veggies were super expensive most of the year because the growing season was like 2-3 months and everything had to be shipped across the country from California.

Frozen fruits/veggies are even higher quality than store fresh and dirt cheap if you have access to a grocery store/walmart. Would quality meat there still be cheaper than beans and frozen veggies?
---

Well speaking from experience in having them for a while. Chickens will sleep/stand and nest in their own shit even if they have a whole yard to move around in. You have to stay on top of cleaning things out. Other times it reaches the point of, if they want to stand in that weed patch all night shitting in it and stepping on it then fine. You can lead a horse to water.

But meat production. It is what it is. What else can you do? $.68 a lb thighs vs all open range grass fed no hormones blah blah blah chicken thighs that are $4.99 lb?
$.89 a dozen eggs or $5.99 a dozen eggs?
$2.99 lb ground beef or the $11.99 lb ground beef?
Have enough money for family to eat one day a week or seven days a week?

Yeah I'd be nice if all that fancy stuff wasn't so expensive. But it is that expensive. So all the oogie boogie things I may get when I'm 60 by eating all this stuff now. Nothing I can do about it. Besides I'll be 36 tomorrow. That many years of eating what I eat has already done whatever it's going to do to me even if I don't know what that is yet. Even if I won the lottery and could eat all the most healthiest things in the world. It isn't going to help at this point.
---

LordFarquad1312 posted...

CiIantro posted...

It takes fewer resorces to produce plant protein. You don't need meat to live, and historically it was more of a luxury item reserved for special occaisions.

No shit Sherlock, we could live off the equivalent of dog food, but we humans are petty and actually care about taste. Imagine that.

implying only meat tastes good

EternalDivide posted...

Well speaking from experience in having them for a while. Chickens will sleep/stand and nest in their own shit even if they have a whole yard to move around in. You have to stay on top of cleaning things out. Other times it reaches the point of, if they want to stand in that weed patch all night shitting in it and stepping on it then fine. You can lead a horse to water.

But meat production. It is what it is. What else can you do? $.68 a lb thighs vs all open range grass fed no hormones blah blah blah chicken thighs that are $4.99 lb?
$.89 a dozen eggs or $5.99 a dozen eggs?
$2.99 lb ground beef or the $11.99 lb ground beef?
Have enough money for family to eat one day a week or seven days a week?

Yeah I'd be nice if all that fancy stuff wasn't so expensive. But it is that expensive. So all the oogie boogie things I may get when I'm 60 by eating all this stuff now. Nothing I can do about it. Besides I'll be 36 tomorrow. That many years of eating what I eat has already done whatever it's going to do to me even if I don't know what that is yet. Even if I won the lottery and could eat all the most healthiest things in the world. It isn't going to help at this point.

I have been eating low doses of poison my whole life. Can't stop now. Gotta keep eating the poison for the next 30+ years too. Wow at this reasoning.

ITP no one should ever stop smoking.
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

Make chicken and eggs more expensive and then what the heck are they going to eat?

... Fruits and Vegetables?

Which are also becoming more expensive due to the weather
---

TheCyborgNinja posted...

I would rather pay double for meat if meant the animals were treated respectfully and the police executed all the disobedient farmers.

Spotted the insane guy.
---

Irony posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

Make chicken and eggs more expensive and then what the heck are they going to eat?

... Fruits and Vegetables?

Which are also becoming more expensive due to the weather

Corn is the cheapest produce on the planet right now.
---

Is TC really one of those insane PETA supporters lol? Now i know not to take this topic seriously.
---

Omega Hunter posted...

I have been eating low doses of poison my whole life. Can't stop now. Gotta keep eating the poison for the next 30+ years too. Wow at this reasoning.

ITP no one should ever stop smoking.

the argument that factory farmed poultry is 'poison' is pretty weak, and while the argument for unprocessed red meat is stronger, i still don't see it as strong enough to turn to this as a basis

i also question the soundness of the antibiotic-resistant bacteria argument. meat is sterilized after leaving factory conditions and i would assume the areas surrounding the factory are similarly sterilized.

seems to be a question of successful quarantine and sterilization practices, which we should be making sure the owners are not slacking on, and penalize them drastically if they do.
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

Irony posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

Make chicken and eggs more expensive and then what the heck are they going to eat?

... Fruits and Vegetables?

Which are also becoming more expensive due to the weather

Corn is the cheapest produce on the planet right now.

Cause it's subsidized partly so that people can feed all of that livestock we're eating.
---

CiIantro posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

CiIantro posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

CiIantro posted...

No, people just need to be willing to pay more

LMAO

God forbid people pay more so that we can preserve our antibiotic supply.

Such ignorance is quite cute. You do realize a good part of the people in the world live day to day? Make chicken and eggs more expensive and then what the heck are they going to eat?

The world is overpopulated. Industrialized farming is the only way to keep up with the demand and necesities so far. If anything, people who want and can afford food labeled as "organic" aliviates the situation a bit.

It takes fewer resorces to produce plant protein. You don't need meat to live, and historically it was more of a luxury item reserved for special occaisions.

Blbmbr666 posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

If anything, people who want and can afford food labeled as "organic" aliviates the situation a bit.

What a weird way to paint people stupid enough to fall for a marketing gimmick.

Organic food is absolutely healthier (no pesticide residue) and it is undeniably better for the environment.

Organic crops still use pesticides. There probably is still pesticide residue on them.
---

ColdOne666 posted...

Is TC really one of those insane PETA supporters lol? Now i know not to take this topic seriously.

I eat meat, genius.

Esrac posted...

Organic crops still use pesticides. There probably is still pesticide residue on them.

No synthetic pesticides are used.

Darkman124 posted...

Omega Hunter posted...

I have been eating low doses of poison my whole life. Can't stop now. Gotta keep eating the poison for the next 30+ years too. Wow at this reasoning.

ITP no one should ever stop smoking.

the argument that factory farmed poultry is 'poison' is pretty weak, and while the argument for unprocessed red meat is stronger, i still don't see it as strong enough to turn to this as a basis

i also question the soundness of the antibiotic-resistant bacteria argument. meat is sterilized after leaving factory conditions and i would assume the areas surrounding the factory are similarly sterilized.

seems to be a question of successful quarantine and sterilization practices, which we should be making sure the owners are not slacking on, and penalize them drastically if they do.

Ignoring all of the poisonous environmental factors, I'll bounce some fun newish research memes off ya. Pubmed warrior style on request.

Animal protein promotes negative gut microbiome shifts. It has a poor nutritional amino acid profile, as it's far too methionine heavy to be eaten often, which promotes cancer and accelerated aging. Cooking/grilling meat forms carcinogens, cooking vegetables doesn't. Heme iron likely carcinogenic, etc. I believe you're smarter than falling for the carnivore blogger meat only raises good ldl and as long as you're zero carb it won't contribute to heart disease hype.

The abuse of antibiotics is in the feed to make the animal bigger. You're putting a lot of faith and optimistic assumptions in factory farm waste management. It saturates the ground, leaks into water systems, and is literally sprayed into the air. As long as large corporations have the political power they do, strict penalties aren't going to be enforced to the degree of making resistant bug leaking improbable.

I'm not as worried about those bacterial doomsday scenarios because I've long been on the bacteriophage train. Big pharma/FDA are working at their usual snail pace on this, though.
---

definitely interested in the research, and i have the licenses, so please do share.

some of this i was aware of (animal protein influences on gut microbes, charred meat carcinogens) though i had understood that to be a result of frequency and not just in general

i was very much not aware that animal protein had a poor nutritional amino acid profile and was under the opposite assumption--that it was more complete than plant protein profiles.
---

CiIantro posted...

ColdOne666 posted...

Is TC really one of those insane PETA supporters lol? Now i know not to take this topic seriously.

I eat meat, genius.

guess you're not really a genius then.

We should replace the chickens with poor people.
---

CiIantro posted...

We can debate ethics blah blah blah, but have you ever seen how absolutely filthy the conditions are? I have zero desire to consume that product. Most of these farms are so packed that disease is rampant and the animals are covered in their own waste. To combat illness, they load the water supply with antibiotics which contribute to the spread of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. The whole thing is massively irresponsible and disgusting.

Agree.

Remember the swine flu? That's how it got started

Omega Hunter posted...

EternalDivide posted...

Well speaking from experience in having them for a while. Chickens will sleep/stand and nest in their own shit even if they have a whole yard to move around in. You have to stay on top of cleaning things out. Other times it reaches the point of, if they want to stand in that weed patch all night shitting in it and stepping on it then fine. You can lead a horse to water.

But meat production. It is what it is. What else can you do? $.68 a lb thighs vs all open range grass fed no hormones blah blah blah chicken thighs that are $4.99 lb?
$.89 a dozen eggs or $5.99 a dozen eggs?
$2.99 lb ground beef or the $11.99 lb ground beef?
Have enough money for family to eat one day a week or seven days a week?

Yeah I'd be nice if all that fancy stuff wasn't so expensive. But it is that expensive. So all the oogie boogie things I may get when I'm 60 by eating all this stuff now. Nothing I can do about it. Besides I'll be 36 tomorrow. That many years of eating what I eat has already done whatever it's going to do to me even if I don't know what that is yet. Even if I won the lottery and could eat all the most healthiest things in the world. It isn't going to help at this point.

I have been eating low doses of poison my whole life. Can't stop now. Gotta keep eating the poison for the next 30+ years too. Wow at this reasoning.

ITP no one should ever stop smoking.

I take it you simply chose to ignore the part about simply not being able to afford eating right.
Accept things for what they are and move on. That includes eating small doses of poison when the only other option is starving to death.
---

Darkman124 posted...

definitely interested in the research, and i have the licenses, so please do share.

some of this i was aware of (animal protein influences on gut microbes, charred meat carcinogens) though i had understood that to be a result of frequency and not just in general

i was very much not aware that animal protein had a poor nutritional amino acid profile and was under the opposite assumption--that it was more complete than plant protein profiles.

Yeah there's a decent amount of research on microbe shifts, the chemicals they excrete, and what occurs when someone following a vegan diet eats meat vs someone that's built a poor microbe profile from daily meat consumption.

But if you're interested in the complete protein meme, here's what I've got.

A complete protein simply means it contains all 9 essential amino acids. It speaks nothing to the ratio of each. Because we're allowed to eat more than one food, it doesn't matter if one protein is complete - you can mix and match foods to get the amino acid ratios you desire. There are also several plants that are complete proteins: soybeans, quinoa, buckwheat, tons of seeds, etc. I prefer to mix.

Meat/egg protein profiles are methionine heavy. A standard 6-8oz chicken breast will give you 3-4x your needed methionine while only simply meeting other amino acid requirements.

Methionine restriction has shown increased longevity across all animal studies. Mechanistically it's down regulating mTOR activity. A decrease in serum GH/IGF-1 levels, transcription of mitochondrial proteins, and reactive oxygen species production is also shown.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5008916/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0531556513000612?via%3Dihub#bb0255

Excess methionine plays a role in several cancers.

Normal cells can convert homocysteine to methionine. Cancer cells need much more methionine than normal cells do and cannot convert enough methionine they need. Cancer cells depend on methionine because it is required in polyamine synthesis. Polyamine plays an important role in cell growth and its level has been associated with colon, lung, prostate skin and breast cancers. Cancer cells cannot produce enough polyamine in methionine deprivation. Especially, methylthioadenosine phosphorylase (MTAP) is involved polyamine synthesis from methionine. Loss of MTAP expression has been observed in many cancer cell lines including TNBC. The cancers which lose MTAP expression required methionine and cannot grow in methionine deprivation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5341870/

So how do plant sources of complete proteins match up with the chicken?
Per gram, soybeans yield equivalent or higher amounts of each essential amino acid, but with the exception of having 1/3rd of the methionine. Combine that with fiber, superior vitamins/minerals, promoting positive microbes, and not becoming more cancerous after cooking: plant power bowls make animal protein a poor nutritional choice.
---

Omega Hunter posted...

CiIantro posted...

This is what "cage-free" chicken farming is. They literally sleep in their own shit.

Cage free is BS. Note I said pasture raised.

Pasture raised beef is still factory farmed, still spends months fattening up at the overcrowded feedlot, and still gets sent to the same slaughterhouses en masse

It's as much a marketing term as cage free. There's no formal USDA definition for pasture raised. The animals can see a field and grass for a brief time in their shortened miserable lives and still get that label.
---

There's no formal USDA definition for pasture raised.

s
m
h
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

Complete_Idi0t posted...

Do you have any idea what those poor potatoes go through? Those evil farmers force them to live underground without any space to move around.

When the potato was originally brought back to Europe, the Europeans had no idea what it was and ate the fruit instead of the tuber.

potato fruit is poisonous and can cause life-ending diarrhea. Imagine being that guy.

"What happened to Riordan!?"
"Oi not sure looks like he shit himself to death"

Would they even do that? Potatoes are part of the Deadly Nightshade family, and most Europeans at the time used Deadly Nightshade as a poison. I doubt they would eat any part of it.
---

foreverzero212 posted...

There's no formal USDA definition for pasture raised.

s
m
h

https://bit.ly/2Fs2tfU

Find it on the USDA website

It's not a regulated term and it's used to market to people. There's no legal standard for it. It can be used freely.
---

oh I wasn't doubting it. I was smhing at how brazen this process is getting with fake terms to charge more.
---

Yah just hold on while I just go out and "get more money" so I can afford to pay $10+/lb. For ground beef that was raised ethically, instead of getting 3 pounds for $7.50 that were raised like *gasp* animals!
---

I flex on the brokefaqs with $10 beef get your money up. The label is a status symbol for soccer moms.
---

In a hundred years, people will look back at the way we raise our meat with disgust, the same way we look back at human rights violations from a hundred years ago today.

When I was eight, my uncle (who works on a farm) took me inside one of those to pick up the corpses of the chicks, which has to be done regularly. Those chickens have horrible lives.
---

CiIantro posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

People have to stop needing to eat if factory farming is ever going to go away.

No, people just need to be willing to pay more, or stop eating meat with every meal. Excessive meat consumption is unhealthy anyway.

People can't pay more. Meat is the cheapest/easiest meal to make that provides you with the nutrients you need.
---

MaverickXeo posted...

CiIantro posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

People have to stop needing to eat if factory farming is ever going to go away.

No, people just need to be willing to pay more, or stop eating meat with every meal. Excessive meat consumption is unhealthy anyway.

People can't pay more. Meat is the cheapest/easiest meal to make that provides you with the nutrients you need.

No it's not. Meat is much more expensive than other options outside of the US where meat is disgustingly subsidized. Even then meat is not cheaper than lentils

The true price of meat is several times what you pay currently
---

La vida es una lenteja.

@Darkman124 jic u missed it
---

Krojen posted...

La vida es una lenteja.

@Darkman124 jic u missed it

thanks! I did miss it--dropped out of my top posts and I didn't see you had responded.

This is really enlightening.
---

Doctor Foxx posted...

foreverzero212 posted...

There's no formal USDA definition for pasture raised.

s
m
h

https://bit.ly/2Fs2tfU

Find it on the USDA website

It's not a regulated term and it's used to market to people. There's no legal standard for it. It can be used freely.

True but I buy 100% grass fed pasture raised beef sourced from white oak farms. Maybe the term can be misused but that specific farm does it the right way and I can verify the meat is different based on it tasting completely different from grain fed beef and looking different as well. The marbling is near non existent compared to grain fed and the color is a much darker hugh of red (you really want to eat this meat on the rarer side). These are cows that have grazed on grass from birth until death as nature intended. You can try and tell yourself that its all marketing but it's not true, there is a difference and there are farms and ranches that do things the right way.

You do have to pay a premium though.
---

Doctor Foxx posted...

Meat is much more expensive than other options outside of the US

So?
---

Omega Hunter posted...

These are cows that have grazed on grass from birth until death as nature intended.

Ignoring all the animal husbandry and selective breeding that's created the domesticated cow we know today?

Omega Hunter posted...

You can try and tell yourself that its all marketing but it's not true, there is a difference and there are farms and ranches that do things the right way.

Post a peer-reviewed study that shows a difference. Everything I've seen/read/heard from the beef industry and friends that are PhD students in Meat Science says the differences are non-existent.
---

Blbmbr666 posted...

Omega Hunter posted...

These are cows that have grazed on grass from birth until death as nature intended.

Ignoring all the animal husbandry and selective breeding that's created the domesticated cow we know today?

Omega Hunter posted...

You can try and tell yourself that its all marketing but it's not true, there is a difference and there are farms and ranches that do things the right way.

Post a peer-reviewed study that shows a difference. Everything I've seen/read/heard from the beef industry and friends that are PhD students in Meat Science says the differences are non-existent.

Do your own research tons of data out there on the different fat profiles, CLA, beta carotene, vitamin content etc.

Google grass fed vs grain fed beef not that hard.
---

that picture is pretty powerful. it's a picture of pure hell
---

Omega Hunter posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

foreverzero212 posted...

There's no formal USDA definition for pasture raised.

s
m
h

https://bit.ly/2Fs2tfU

Find it on the USDA website

It's not a regulated term and it's used to market to people. There's no legal standard for it. It can be used freely.

True but I buy 100% grass fed pasture raised beef sourced from white oak farms. Maybe the term can be misused but that specific farm does it the right way and I can verify the meat is different based on it tasting completely different from grain fed beef and looking different as well. The marbling is near non existent compared to grain fed and the color is a much darker hugh of red (you really want to eat this meat on the rarer side). These are cows that have grazed on grass from birth until death as nature intended. You can try and tell yourself that its all marketing but it's not true, there is a difference and there are farms and ranches that do things the right way.

You do have to pay a premium though.

In the end you're still supporting the slaughter of juvenile animals well before their natural lifespans. I don't personally think that's ok regardless of how nice their farm stay was. Slaughter is pure hell and the animals die terrified and alone, covered in their blood and feces. Grass fed or not. If you can buy it in a grocery store and not a specialty small market it's not nearly as nice as you think it is. I loved meat for decades and could tell you all about the special meat I bought and how nice it was but it was still not right and still came from suffering and exploitation of feeling beings.

Sometimes the right way is still the wrong way

All studies still point to reduction or elimination of animal products as the healthiest. Regardless as to whether those animals ate grass or corn. It's still harmful to you. Just not as immediately harmful
---

Omega Hunter posted...

Blbmbr666 posted...

Omega Hunter posted...

These are cows that have grazed on grass from birth until death as nature intended.

Ignoring all the animal husbandry and selective breeding that's created the domesticated cow we know today?

Omega Hunter posted...

You can try and tell yourself that its all marketing but it's not true, there is a difference and there are farms and ranches that do things the right way.

Post a peer-reviewed study that shows a difference. Everything I've seen/read/heard from the beef industry and friends that are PhD students in Meat Science says the differences are non-existent.

Do your own research tons of data out there on the different fat profiles, CLA, beta carotene, vitamin content etc.

Google grass fed vs grain fed beef not that hard.

All I've seen are negligible differences in everything except fat amounts. Hence me asking you to provide something.
---