Current Events > 'Simpsons' Creator On Apu Debate: 'People Love To Pretend They're Offended'

(+) Yeah! (+)

Guys if you're gonna argue against the documentaries points you should at least read a summary.

English and American actors aren't typecast into playing stereotypes like Apu. Indian actors were for a long time. This only changed in the last decade.

I feel sorry that this guys documentary has fell victim to clickbait outrage culture.
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They need to go as far from stereotypes as possible. Make apu not named apu for one. Name him Dave. He speaks perfect English with no accent. He is super light skinned and has blonde hair. He works as an auto mechanic. His religion is pastafarian. He is not married and has no kids. The only way you know he's from India because he casually mentions it one time at a football tailgate party.
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One, Apu needs to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Two, whenever Apu's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's Apu"? Three--
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Darmik posted...

Funbazooka posted...

Ok? If you're insinuating that their complaints are valid (or any more valid) because the ones complaining about it are Indian then what about this guy who doesn't agree with them?

He's also entitled to his opinion?

Considering he starts talking about CNN and BBC articles instead of the documentary it doesn't seem like he even watched it.

People being entitled to their opinions isn't what's in dispute. What's in dispute is this expectation that everyone should agree with this guy and his documentary because he's Indian. What's in dispute is this expectation that everyone should feel bad for being entertained by a thing because someone out there called it racist and bad for this or that. A lot of people are tired of being told what they should and shouldn't enjoy.

And he's probably referring to news articles in which they interview and quote the documentary creator, Hari Kondabolu... about his documentary. It got a lot of coverage. You don't have to actually watch the documentary to understand what his agenda is.
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Funbazooka posted...

People being entitled to their opinions isn't what's in dispute. What's in dispute is this expectation that everyone should agree with this guy and his documentary because he's Indian. What's in dispute is this expectation that everyone should feel bad for being entertained by a thing because someone out there called it racist and bad for this or that. A lot of people are tired of being told what they should and shouldn't enjoy.

Who said any of that?

Funbazooka posted...

And he's probably referring to news articles in which they interview and quote the documentary creator, Hari Kondabolu... about his documentary. It got a lot of coverage. You don't have to actually watch the documentary to understand what his agenda is.

Quotes can easily be taken out of context though. It also removes any nuance from the conversation.

All of this controversy stemmed from his documentary. A documentary most of the people crying about haven't even watched anyway.

Besides no one has even bothered to quote him here.
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Quickly found example

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20171027-the-simpsons-apu-a-stereotype-hiding-in-plain-sight

The Simpsons is an important work of art that has influenced so many, including myself, Kondabolu says. Apu was the only Indian we had on TV at all so I was happy for any representation as a kid. And of course hes funny, but that doesnt mean this representation is accurate or right or righteous. It gets to the insidiousness of racism, though, because you dont even notice it when its right in front of you. It becomes so normal that you dont even think about it. It seeps into our language to the point we dont even question it because it seems like its just been that way forever.

It's racist. Feel bad. Feel guilty. Get woke. Stop liking it.

Message well received and discarded, Kondabolu.
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Funbazooka posted...

Quickly found example

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20171027-the-simpsons-apu-a-stereotype-hiding-in-plain-sight

The Simpsons is an important work of art that has influenced so many, including myself, Kondabolu says. Apu was the only Indian we had on TV at all so I was happy for any representation as a kid. And of course hes funny, but that doesnt mean this representation is accurate or right or righteous. It gets to the insidiousness of racism, though, because you dont even notice it when its right in front of you. It becomes so normal that you dont even think about it. It seeps into our language to the point we dont even question it because it seems like its just been that way forever.

It's racist. Feel bad. Feel guilty. Get woke. Stop liking it.

Message well received and discarded, Kondabolu.

Even in that quote he calls him a funny character.

Saying that this stuff is seen as normal is the opposite of demonizing people who like and watch it.

Like there's a reason you specifically bolded that one sentence and ignored everything around it.
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Darmik posted...

Drunken_Idiot posted...

Okay. Seems completely fair. The aim of the documentary was about Apu and how it impacted these peoples lives. Im assuming in a positive way?

lol why would you assume that?

To be honest, I'm trying hard to see some silver lining to this clusterfuck. But I highly doubt it was positive.
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Apu has been around for over 30 years. If anyone is offended now, fuck em.
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It's less about demonizing people and more about controlling them and truthfully in the end it's about the easy bucks and promotion that comes with spear-heading an outrage train, or at least trying to socially engineer one with the help of mainstream media outlets.

Darmik posted...

Like there's a reason you specifically bolded that one sentence and ignored everything around it.

I didn't ignore it. Hell, I included it. The line I put in bold was most relevant since that's his core point of contention, or one of the main ones anyway.
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Nobody gives you offence, you have to take it.
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DavidWong posted...

Every character in the show is a stereotype.

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I guess one of his big ones is that Apu is voiced by a white man and that's just a laughable complaint. I can't even take that one seriously. It's a non-complaint.
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Just ignore the fact that Apu is intelligent (finished college in India), a business owner, hard working, a supportive family man...pretty much living the American dream

Nahh his fake accent is what is triggering me.
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Funbazooka posted...

It's less about demonizing people and more about controlling them and truthfully in the end it's about the easy bucks and promotion that comes with spear-heading an outrage train, or at least trying to socially engineer one with the help of mainstream media outlets.

Controlling them? What?

Why is it so hard to understand the perspective of someone else?

For 25+ years a white guy mocked an Indian accent on the biggest TV show and this was completely normal. That's basically all he meant by racism being insidious.

This doesn't mean Hank Azaria is a Nazi. Racism can be complicated and nuanced.

Funbazooka posted...

I guess one of his big ones is that Apu is voiced by a white man and that's just a laughable complaint. I can't even take that one seriously. It's a non-complaint.

And at one point blackface was a non-complaint.

This isn't that extreme but the similarities are there. A white guy mocking a minority for laughs. People then using that form of entertainment as the only way to represent a specific minority.

The funniest thing about this is the response and defensiveness around Apu speak way more than the character itself. The guy doesn't call for the character to be banned. He doesn't call the people behind the Simpson's raging racists. Yet people are responding to him like he is.

All he's saying is "Hey Simpsons is great and all but in retrospect wasn't this representation of Indians in media kinda racist? Here's how it impacted my life and my career. Maybe we can do some things differently to improve things for everyone"

That's it. An Apu centric episode written by Indian comedians alone would mean a lot to a lot of people out there. Sorta like how episodes written by women helped flesh out characters like Marge and Lisa.
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It's a valid statement that covers instigation and false flag trolling. The statement doesn't say that's an absolute description of everyone who take issue with such things, it just says that some people are histrionic. Which is true.

Anyway, the people acting like "outrage culture" is an outrage are guilty of the criticism they levy.
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can I ask I why can't make the same apu argument for bumblebee man? I will admit that I did not see the documentary.
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Overheadnero posted...

can I ask I why can't make the same apu argument for bumblebee man? I will admit that I did not see the documentary.

The issue unique to Apu is that he sorta represents the sole Indian stereotype on television and media for a lot of people.

For long time you had white guys cast to mock Indians. Then white guys were casting Indians solely to mock Indians.

Things have gotten better in the last 10 years but The Simpson's hasn't really adapted to the times with the character or made any effort to improve a single thing since like season 7.
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Darmik posted...

And at one point blackface was a non-complaint.

This isn't that extreme but the similarities are there.

Comparing any aspect of blackface to Simpsons....

What the hell is wrong with you? lol
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im not 13 posted...

Darmik posted...

And at one point blackface was a non-complaint.

This isn't that extreme but the similarities are there.

Comparing any aspect of blackface to Simpsons....

What the hell is wrong with you? lol

He's not saying they're exactly the same. He's saying there are some similarities. Like a Venn Diagram.
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im not 13 posted...

Darmik posted...

And at one point blackface was a non-complaint.

This isn't that extreme but the similarities are there.

Comparing any aspect of blackface to Simpsons....

What the hell is wrong with you? lol

The sort of mouth breather who cant draw a parallel between a white guy doing a mock characterization of a black person and a white guy doing a mock characterization of an Indian American probably finds Jeff Dunham hilarious
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Darmik posted...

For long time you had white guys cast to mock Indians.

Hank Azaria also voiced Bumblebee Man though.
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"I don't agree with Jewish teachings"
"The holocaust was justified"

This is how far fetched the comparison is
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KiwiTerraRizing posted...

You dont get to decide if people are actually offended.

Yet it's still a fact that people fake being offended.
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Darmik posted...

For 25+ years a white guy mocked an Indian accent on the biggest TV show and this was completely normal.

Still is, imo. Nothing inherently bad about it. Why the singling out of Apu? That isn't the full context. Again, all the characters on the Simpsons were stereotypes. All of them were mocked with impressions of stereotypes by the voice actors, and more often than not those voice actors did many voices at once. They wore many hats.

Darmik posted...

And at one point blackface was a non-complaint.

This isn't that extreme but the similarities are there. A white guy mocking a minority for laughs. People then using that form of entertainment as the only way to represent a specific minority.

Similar up to a point but not equivalent. There's not exactly a huge tradition sweeping the nation of white voice actors doing vocal impressions of Indians on numerous TV cartoons. One big difference. And again, the unique context being that all the Simpsons characters were stereotypical, and voice acted by people who aren't the same demographic or ethnicity or whatever. Bart's always been voiced by a woman, btw.

Darmik posted...

The funniest thing about this is the response and defensiveness around Apu speak way more than the character itself. The guy doesn't call for the character to be banned. He doesn't call the people behind the Simpson's raging racists. Yet people are responding to him like he is.

All he's saying is "Hey Simpsons is great and all but in retrospect wasn't this representation of Indians in media kinda racist? Here's how it impacted my life and my career. Maybe we can do some things differently to improve things for everyone"

That's it. An Apu centric episode written by Indian comedians alone would mean a lot to a lot of people out there. Sorta like how episodes written by women helped flesh out characters like Marge and Lisa.

Yes, I know he wasn't calling the writers and creators racist and going about demonizing everyone far as I'm aware. I caught him on a BBC tv interview a while back and he's a pleasant bullshitter. Pleasant, but a bullshitter. His agenda and the media's eagerness to report on any old classic and beloved entertainment that could possibly be construed as racist through modern day concept-creep, and by deliberately ignoring all context, reeks to high heaven for me.

If they were to do an episode written by Indian comedians that sounds... fine. That sounds cool. Just keep Kondabolu away from it. It's not like he's entitled to it.
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garkimasera posted...

No Indian is offended just spoiled white liberals who get offended on others behalf

This.

Alucard188 posted...

He's not wrong. People love outrage culture.

and this.
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Absolutely BASED. Good to see people with sense in the industry.
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im not 13 posted...

"I don't agree with Jewish teachings"
"The holocaust was justified"

This is how far fetched the comparison is

dood. That's just horrible reading comprehension that you have.
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Alucard188 posted...

He's not wrong. People love outrage culture.

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And I guess groundskeeper Willie isn't an offensive stereotype then?

I wonder how fake the outrage in this topic is. 130 posts fake?
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How does one "pretend to be offended", anyway? I mean, in a way where someone can apparently detect it as distinct from genuinely being offended. Sure, I can go on CE and find some people I believe are obviously trolling about being offended, mostly because I know their posting style from observing them. But I go on other social media platforms and for people I don't know, it's kinda hard to tell the difference between genuine and manufactured. Poe's Law and all.

Is Groening suggesting that that Kondabolu is pretending to be offended? Enough to make a documentary about it?

Is Groening suggesting that everyone else is pretending to be offended? If so, what's his metric and how has he gone about evaluating this? Is he going to multiple sources and going through some kind of litmus test whether the offense is genuine or entirely fictional? Can I get one of these "offend-o-meters" for my own use?

Just saying I feel Groening, and people offhandedly agreeing with this comment without clarity, may not be thinking about what this statement actually means. Which in my humble opinion is "nothing". This is like saying "Man, people enjoy the good life." A statement that means nothing that people will quickly agree with because they don't care to think about it for a second.
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It's bizarre watching people swing around the double-edged sword that is "lol, you offended?" without any self-awareness.

Practically everyone has a red button issue, if not many. Just because yours isn't being pushed now, doesn't mean you don't have one. Pretending you dont is just asking karma to kick you in the ass.

Remember that when you go from smug comments about what X people should and shouldn't be offended by to wailing at some issue that sets you off.
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PokemonYoutube posted...

And I guess groundskeeper Willie isn't an offensive stereotype then?

They talked about him on ce before, I dont remember the nonsense that was said but they say willie isnt offensive. Which is crazy. White American doing a thick Scottish accent. Thats okay. White American doing a thick Indian accent. Not okay. Not okay at all. Willie is an angry drunk with red hair, but again thats not a stereotype. Apu works in a convenience store, whoa holy shit is that an awful stereotype.

See? So Willie is okay.
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Overheadnero posted...

Darmik posted...

For long time you had white guys cast to mock Indians.

Hank Azaria also voiced Bumblebee Man though.

But thats okay because when you think Spanish person you dont think bumblebee man. When you think of an Indian person the only thing that can possibly come to mind is Apu and we all know how offensive he is.
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"Thank You! Come Again!" Is really a bad stereotype.

Most convienience store workers aren't as friendly as Apu.
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DoubleDare posted...

"Thank You! Come Again!" Is really a bad stereotype.

Most convienience store workers aren't as friendly as Apu.

Yeah, most just ignore you now a days.
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CyricZ posted...

How does one "pretend to be offended", anyway? I mean, in a way where someone can apparently detect it as distinct from genuinely being offended. Sure, I can go on CE and find some people I believe are obviously trolling about being offended, mostly because I know their posting style from observing them. But I go on other social media platforms and for people I don't know, it's kinda hard to tell the difference between genuine and manufactured. Poe's Law and all.

Is Groening suggesting that that Kondabolu is pretending to be offended? Enough to make a documentary about it?

Is Groening suggesting that everyone else is pretending to be offended? If so, what's his metric and how has he gone about evaluating this? Is he going to multiple sources and going through some kind of litmus test whether the offense is genuine or entirely fictional? Can I get one of these "offend-o-meters" for my own use?

Just saying I feel Groening, and people offhandedly agreeing with this comment without clarity, may not be thinking about what this statement actually means. Which in my humble opinion is "nothing". This is like saying "Man, people enjoy the good life." A statement that means nothing that people will quickly agree with because they don't care to think about it for a second.

Maybe he is. I mean, let's be real here: This whole Apu thing has benefited this guy's career, for sure. I agree with Groening, and in fact, said the same exact thing he did. I said this was fake outrage.

my grandfather: "let me tell you how I served in WWII"
my father: "let me tell you about Vietnam"
our generation in the future: "Now ,kids let me tell you when I was offended by a cartoon."
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Spidey5 posted...

NeonOctopus posted...

chill02 posted...

Alucard188 posted...

He's not wrong. People love outrage culture.

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Caution999 posted...

Maybe he is.

Hey, I can't stop you from assuming he is. I'm just saying that such claims do nothing for the argument. All you're doing is casting doubt on the creator, assuming they're just an asshole, because it's easier than addressing the issue directly.

You can agree with Groening all you want. I prefer to agree with Mr. Azaria: it's not about whether the situation flips a switch, on/off, of "racism" or "stereotype" or "offensive". It's about listening to other people and having their voices in the room, hearing their perspectives. It doesn't mean you have to wipe the slate of the last thirty years, but it helps to think about what came of them and apply that knowledge to your future work.

Also, please get off the "war story" analogy. It's both a fallacy of relative privation and a strawman, because you're making the assumption that people will be telling these "war stories" to their kids of all the internet fights they've had, which is rich coming from the average CEman, if nothing else.

Not to mention I had relatives who were outright ashamed of what they did in Vietnam, so I'd appreciate you not holding that particular event in some lofty moral position.
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If there was stereotypical character based on a black person there would an outrage. No one really cares about racism against Asians, white people, or Indians
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Truth.
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DavidWong posted...

Every character in the show is a stereotype.

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CyricZ posted...

You can agree with Groening all you want. I prefer to agree with Mr. Azaria: it's not about whether the situation flips a switch, on/off, of "racism" or "stereotype" or "offensive". It's about listening to other people and having their voices in the room, hearing their perspectives. It doesn't mean you have to wipe the slate of the last thirty years, but it helps to think about what came of them and apply that knowledge to your future work.

That's fine, as long as you accept "no action needed" as a possible outcome. The problem with the "listen and learn" crowd is that what they're really advocating for is change and using someone else's voice as an excuse to demand it. Sometimes the conclusion of an open dialogue is "this isn't actually an issue that needs changing at all", but you're never going to get people to admit that.
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If no one ever spoke out same-sex marriage would still be illegal.
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I hate it when people advocate for reactionary politics. Might as well start advocating for a communist state while you're at it.
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Calling people communists for being offended over Apu is the same reaction people had when people called blackface offensive.
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Making non sequitur false equivalancies is the same as pissing in a bathtub while doing a headstand.
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s0nicfan posted...

The problem with the "listen and learn" crowd is that what they're really advocating for is change and using someone else's voice as an excuse to demand it. Sometimes the conclusion of an open dialogue is "this isn't actually an issue that needs changing at all", but you're never going to get people to admit that.

I'm sure there's a subset of people for which that's true, but I'd like to point out that this really didn't become "a thing" with the release of the documentary. This became "a thing" when the Simpsons writers responded by having Lisa address the camera in an episode on the topic. So the case can be made that the real outrage didn't come from the doc, but as a result of the response that basically amounted to a "fuck you charlie".
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