Current Events > 'Simpsons' Creator On Apu Debate: 'People Love To Pretend They're Offended'

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EnragedSlith posted...

Ehhhhhhh, Apu is a pretty racist characterization. We care more now because people are aware of it, which is exactly how progress has always gone. There was a time when black face was seen in a similar capacity.

You can't just make that statement without qualifying it. How are people today "more aware" that Apu is a stereotype than 25 years ago? That's a bullshit premise to even begin with. Nobody 25 years ago seriously thought "I guess this is what indians are all like", just like they thought not all black people were like Hibbert, not all judges were like Snyder, not all christians were like Flanders, and not all police were like Wiggum.
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s0nicfan posted...

Nobody 25 years ago seriously thought "I guess this is what indians are all like", just like they thought not all black people were like Hibbert, not all judges were like Snyder, not all christians were like Flanders, and not all police were like Wiggum.

That might be an exaggeration but people trying to relate to Indians through stereotypes like Apu certainly wasn't unusual.
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Darmik posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Nobody 25 years ago seriously thought "I guess this is what indians are all like", just like they thought not all black people were like Hibbert, not all judges were like Snyder, not all christians were like Flanders, and not all police were like Wiggum.

That might be an exaggeration but people trying to relate to Indians through stereotypes like Apu certainly wasn't unusual.

But the idea that we as a society are somehow more "woke" and we just never realized that for 25 years Apu didn't represent all indians is just complete nonsense. It's a premise that exists solely to justify a predetermined conclusion.
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TheVipaGTS posted...

and that is exactly what they're asking for...but because of characters like Apu all the media wants is the 7/11 stereotype....so they're asking to pull back a little on the Apu stuff and let these actors have a real chance...

Um, that stereotype has been around for a long long long time, and it seems like Apu is the easy thing to blame, and the thing to blame that wont ever change. So the blaming and complaining can continue and continue. Same thing with guns. Same thing with all the stuff people are bitching about. Lets suggest something that wont change so we can continue complaining.
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DavidWong posted...

Every character in the show is a stereotype.

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DavidWong posted...

Every character in the show is a stereotype.

Carl isnt
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I4NRulez posted...

DavidWong posted...

Every character in the show is a stereotype.

Carl isnt

"Hey Chief, mind if I hold my gun like this *holds the gun sidways*?"
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Changing the character now won't change much. It is set in stone and man babies won't have it. Going forward, characters shouldn't be embedded in stereotypes, positive or negative. I would argue more if the simpsons are relevant, but it isn't anymore.

Some stereotypes have different impacts.

Ewan McGregor never had to act like Groundskeeper Willie in all of the movies he auditioned for. Meanwhile for a long time the only roles available to Indians were stereotypes. That's assuming they even bothered casting an Indian to begin with.

Apu isn't solely responsible but it was a powerful thing that perpetuated the stereotype. There's a reason most of these complaints are coming from American Indian actors and comedians in their 30's. Apu was the big representation for them while they were growing up. It impacted how people viewed them in America and it impacted the work available to them in the industry.

Things have been improving for sure but I don't recall anything like Master of None back in the 90's. Stuff like this gaining acclaim and popularity leads to the higher-ups in the industry think "hey we don't need minority characters to be based on their stereotype" and that's overall a good thing.
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Nobody ever sat around pulling stereotypes out of thin air or sat around making them up. There's a reason they exist. And they work well for comedy, especially cartoons.
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s0nicfan posted...

I4NRulez posted...

DavidWong posted...

Every character in the show is a stereotype.

Carl isnt

"Hey Chief, mind if I hold my gun like this *holds the gun sidways*?"

Thats not carl
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I4NRulez posted...

s0nicfan posted...

I4NRulez posted...

DavidWong posted...

Every character in the show is a stereotype.

Carl isnt

"Hey Chief, mind if I hold my gun like this *holds the gun sidways*?"

Thats not carl

Ah you're right that's Lou. My bad.
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NeonOctopus posted...

chill02 posted...

Alucard188 posted...

He's not wrong. People love outrage culture.

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So are they going to get rid of Grounds Keeper Willie?

Or family guy with the Jewish pharmacist who's just a stereotype?

Or is it only offensive to liberals if the character is Brown?

Hes not wrong.
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Funbazooka posted...

Nobody ever sat around pulling stereotypes out of thin air or sat around making them up. There's a reason they exist. And they work well for comedy, especially cartoons.

Wait, are you arguing that stereotypes exist so therefore that justifies their existence, or that they are 'good' comedy? Because if it's the former, that circular reasoning and if it's the latter, then I would not want to see what you think is funny. Like, stereotype jokes are the laziest and most boring jokes I can think of. They aren't even remotely clever or witty. It's just like, "oh man, I don't have a punchline, let's use a stereotype because it's easy and someone else already made the joke before'.

Rome218 posted...

So are they going to get rid of Grounds Keeper Willie?

To be fair, Groundskeeper Willie doesn't conform to many pre-existing stereotypes, and many scots actually don't find him offensive. More importantly, you seem to be missing the fact that he actually was brought up a racist caricature several times by various groups.

Rome218 posted...

Or family guy with the Jewish pharmacist who's just a stereotype?

Again, people have complained. Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean the complaints don't exist. Family Guy is a weird case, though. Originally, it actually subverted many of the stereotypes by initially making it look like they were playing them straight and then completely twisting them, or more commonly, by making the joke that Peter believed the stereotype even when the person was blatantly not conforming to the stereotypes.

Either way, though, you are basically disqualifying actual people's complaints because you think they complain too much and at the same time also because you think they don't complain enough about everything. It's a weird argument to make.

I like how this is only coming up now when Indian American actors are already starting to get a foothold. This would ve been a really relevant point 20 years ago.

Aziz Ansari, Mindy Kaling, the dude on Big Bang Theory and the Pakistani guy on Silicon Valley have had very successful careers without being Apu knockoffs. While it sucks that they grew up with Apu and the guy in brown face in Short Circuit as their only real representation, they've still managed to be successful and change that.

The problem was never specifically Apu. It was a lack of representation abd that has since started to change for the better.
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Jiek_Fafn posted...

I like how this is only coming up now when Indian American actors are already starting to get a foothold. This would ve been a really relevant point 20 years ago.

Aziz Ansari, Mindy Kaling, the dude on Big Bang Theory have had very successful careers without being Apu knockoffs. While it sucks that they grew up with Apu and the guy in brown face in Short Circuit as their only real representation, they've still managed to be successful and change that.

The problem was never specifically Apu. It was a lack of representation abd that has since started to change for the better.

It's coming up now because they managed to gain their foothold. Nobody would have listened to them 20 years ago.
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Dash_Harber posted...

Wait, are you arguing that stereotypes exist so therefore that justifies their existence, or that they are 'good' comedy? Because if it's the former, that circular reasoning and if it's the latter, then I would not want to see what you think is funny. Like, stereotype jokes are the laziest and most boring jokes I can think of. They aren't even remotely clever or witty. It's just like, "oh man, I don't have a punchline, let's use a stereotype because it's easy and someone else already made the joke before'.

I'm saying they're part of the observable world. The tricky part is to understand the scale at which they are true. Because, not all. But they usually represent trends. Not all, but not none.

Simpsons didn't merely rely on stereotypes though. They added layers and depth. Those stereotyped characters were expanded upon. If they just shit out a couple of stereotypes and left it that Simpsons would have never gained a following.
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Who gives a shit? People get offended over the stupidest damn things now. I just recently heard colleges are creating crying closests for students who cant handle the stress of college. Apu is meant to be a successful businessman in the show last I watched it years ago. It only got any traction because this one Indian comedian became offended, therefore if a minority man finds it offensive, we must all be offended for him. Its the same damn identity politics the SJWs use nowadays.
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Omg so offensive!

OMG the Japanese girl with the sign has thin eyes I'm offended because I'm Japanese!


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Funbazooka posted...

Simpsons didn't merely rely on stereotypes though. They added layers and depth. Those stereotyped characters were expanded upon. If they just shit out a couple of stereotypes and left it that Simpsons would have never gained a following.

Except in the case of Apu. His catchphrase is literally, "Thank you, come again" in a thick accent.

And thick accents are racist, because reasons.

I remember several in-depth episodes of Apu that expanded his character. I'm talking way back. There were probably more I didn't see either, since I stopped watching a long time ago.
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Funbazooka posted...

And thick accents are racist, because reasons.

I remember several in-depth episodes of Apu that expanded his character. I'm talking way back. There were probably more I didn't see either, since I stopped watching a long time ago.

No, it's not just the accent. It's literally everything about him; he has a thick accent, he is a convenience store clerk, he references his 'many gods' every chance he gets, he had an arranged marriage (with elephants!), etc, etc.

I don't know if you realize this, but you come off really condescending and obnoxious. I'm not sure why you can't just state your opinion without strawmanning what I'm saying or sarcastically replying. You might find people are more receptive if you avoid that in the future.

Funbazooka posted...

And thick accents are racist, because reasons.

I remember several in-depth episodes of Apu that expanded his character. I'm talking way back. There were probably more I didn't see either, since I stopped watching a long time ago.

One of the issues is that it's a white Americans interpretation of an Indian accent.

I don't think a single Indian has ever been involved with Apu or any of the episodes he's in over the last 30 years.
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*shrug* I call out the insinuations and social justice dog-whistling when I see them. Don't care if I make friends or not on the Current Events message board.

I think you're cherry-picking. I vaguely recall Apu-centric stuff that expanded his character that lead one to gain respect for this fictional and sterotypical character. He wasn't the only one. That was the Simpsons method. He was and still is a beloved character.
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Maybe indians should focus on making india less rapey than wasting time complaining about Apu.
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There were episodes that fleshed Apu out.

That doesn't contradict any of the issues raised in the documentary though.
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that sentence perfectly sums up social media in today's society. Mob mentality, righteous indignation and the ability to exist in vast exco chambers. This isn't going to get us anywhere good. It honestly seems like we're living decades before The Purge becomes reality.

Couldn't have said it any better

Maamspreader posted...

that sentence perfectly sums up social media in today's society. Mob mentality, righteous indignation and the ability to exist in vast exco chambers. This isn't going to get us anywhere good. It honestly seems like we're living decades before The Purge becomes reality.

Couldn't have said it any better

"I disagree with the argument, therefore everyone else is a stupid mob shouting in an echo chamber. I will continue to ignore it and whine about how much better life was when the internet didn't allow minority groups to gain traction for their grievances."
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This whole story does summarize the internet yes but not in that way.

This guy made a detailed documentary that explained how him and other Indians were impacted by Apu growing up and in their careers.

As a response a bunch of people have strawmanned him as some fragile maniac without even bothering to watch the trailer of the documentary. Never mind the documentary itself. Matt Groening is apparently another one who has assumed this.

The funny thing is that The Simpsons basically had an episode with a similar premise. Lisa Simpson worrying about Malibu Stacey's impact on women. They've basically grown to be the out of touch executives they were lampooning in that episode.
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EnragedSlith posted...

Maamspreader posted...

that sentence perfectly sums up social media in today's society. Mob mentality, righteous indignation and the ability to exist in vast exco chambers. This isn't going to get us anywhere good. It honestly seems like we're living decades before The Purge becomes reality.

Couldn't have said it any better

"I disagree with the argument, therefore everyone else is a stupid mob shouting in an echo chamber. I will continue to ignore it and whine about how much better life was when the internet didn't allow minority groups to gain traction for their grievances."

Thats quite the huge leap in logic and assumptions while putting words in their mouths.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

Thats quite the huge leap in logic and assumptions while putting words in their mouths.

That's what most people are doing to Hari Kondabolu.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

EnragedSlith posted...

Maamspreader posted...

that sentence perfectly sums up social media in today's society. Mob mentality, righteous indignation and the ability to exist in vast exco chambers. This isn't going to get us anywhere good. It honestly seems like we're living decades before The Purge becomes reality.

Couldn't have said it any better

"I disagree with the argument, therefore everyone else is a stupid mob shouting in an echo chamber. I will continue to ignore it and whine about how much better life was when the internet didn't allow minority groups to gain traction for their grievances."

Thats quite the huge leap in logic and assumptions while putting words in their mouths.

Not at all, you just haven't been paying attention.
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Darmik posted...

Drunken_Idiot posted...

Thats quite the huge leap in logic and assumptions while putting words in their mouths.

That's what most people are doing to Hari Kondabolu.

That can be fair if youre right, but I havent followed this clusterfuck. It just screams utter nonsense to get offended over. What exactly went down aside from SJWs using this as an attempt for social revolution or to be keyboard warriors?
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EnragedSlith posted...

Drunken_Idiot posted...

EnragedSlith posted...

Maamspreader posted...

that sentence perfectly sums up social media in today's society. Mob mentality, righteous indignation and the ability to exist in vast exco chambers. This isn't going to get us anywhere good. It honestly seems like we're living decades before The Purge becomes reality.

Couldn't have said it any better

"I disagree with the argument, therefore everyone else is a stupid mob shouting in an echo chamber. I will continue to ignore it and whine about how much better life was when the internet didn't allow minority groups to gain traction for their grievances."

Thats quite the huge leap in logic and assumptions while putting words in their mouths.

Not at all, you just haven't been paying attention.

No, I read the quote quite clearly before commenting.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

Darmik posted...

Drunken_Idiot posted...

Thats quite the huge leap in logic and assumptions while putting words in their mouths.

That's what most people are doing to Hari Kondabolu.

That can be fair if youre right, but I havent followed this clusterfuck. It just screams utter nonsense to get offended over. What exactly went down aside from SJWs using this as an attempt for social revolution or to be keyboard warriors?

Basically the guy made a documentary with some other celebrities about the impact Apu made on his life. People have automatically assumed he hates Apu, The Simpsons and wants the character banned.

Here's what he said in response to Groening.

Well, that seals it. Matt Groening finally responded & sounds like every other troll on the internet who didnt see the documentary. No one is offended by this character. It was, at times, insulting & was frustrating to many of us who were solely represented by that one image.

And he's not wrong.
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I grew up in a city with loads of East Indians. Three of my cousins are half Indian. Nobody gives a fuck about Apu. I guarantee it's some pasty college students getting offended on their behalf.
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Darmik posted...

Drunken_Idiot posted...

Darmik posted...

Drunken_Idiot posted...

Thats quite the huge leap in logic and assumptions while putting words in their mouths.

That's what most people are doing to Hari Kondabolu.

That can be fair if youre right, but I havent followed this clusterfuck. It just screams utter nonsense to get offended over. What exactly went down aside from SJWs using this as an attempt for social revolution or to be keyboard warriors?

Basically the guy made a documentary with some other celebrities about the impact Apu made on his life. People have automatically assumed he hates Apu, The Simpsons and wants the character banned.

Here's what he said in response to Groening.

Well, that seals it. Matt Groening finally responded & sounds like every other troll on the internet who didnt see the documentary. No one is offended by this character. It was, at times, insulting & was frustrating to many of us who were solely represented by that one image.

And he's not wrong.

Okay. Seems completely fair. The aim of the documentary was about Apu and how it impacted these peoples lives. Im assuming in a positive way?
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Let's just keep saying that Apu, Circumcision, and whitewashing isn't offensive and let people of color continue to be not be taken seriously.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

Okay. Seems completely fair. The aim of the documentary was about Apu and how it impacted these peoples lives. Im assuming in a positive way?

lol why would you assume that?
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Darmik posted...

his guy made a detailed documentary that explained how him and other Indians were impacted by Apu growing up and in their careers.

Ok? If you're insinuating that their complaints are valid (or any more valid) because the ones complaining about it are Indian then what about this guy who doesn't agree with them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kVHF15PR5A" data-time="
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Anisoptera posted...

Let's just keep saying that Apu, Circumcision, and whitewashing isn't offensive and let people of color continue to be not be taken seriously.

What about all the Irish, German, Australian, Italian, etc. stereotypes? The people who bitch and moan until the wambulance comes to carry them off never seem outraged about those. I hope your post was sarcastic and just went over my head. Otherwise it's really sad.

I agree with you on the circumcision problem though, regardless.
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Apu is offensive character design. Native Americans as mascots for sports teams is offensive. Companies pushing "sexy geisha princess" costumes is offensive. Stop being stuck in your 90's mindset.
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Funbazooka posted...

Ok? If you're insinuating that their complaints are valid (or any more valid) because the ones complaining about it are Indian then what about this guy who doesn't agree with them?

He's also entitled to his opinion?

Considering he starts talking about CNN and BBC articles instead of the documentary it doesn't seem like he even watched it.
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Any fictional character in any show could be argued that its stereotyping. Doug heffernan in king of queens stereotypes obese men living in queens with their wives and father in laws

Every foriegner in The Simpsons is a strong stereotype of how America sees them.

I'm British and I don't get offended when we are portrayed as upperclass snobs with snooty accents drinking tea.

I think the Apu situation is a case of "put more minorities in!" followed by "I'm offended by the minorities you've put in!"

Life is not a comedy but The Simpsons is. Characters in The Simpsons are written to be comical not an accurate portrayal of real life. Like a fun house mirror distortion.
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L0Z posted...

Any fictional character in any show could be argued that its stereotyping. Doug heffernan in king of queens stereotypes obese men living in queens with their wives and father in laws

Hes white though. Cant stereotype a white person. Those are just funny jokes that nobody has a problem with.
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