Current Events > Man asked if anyone was jewish and proceeded to beat man that replied he was

(+) Yeah! (+)

s0nicfan posted...

Do I know how dumb it sounds that a person affiliated with a group that overwhelmingly votes left stops being left the moment they commit an act of violence? Yes... that sounds incredibly dumb.

http://78.media.tumblr.com/9b11afb110ec8cdf63a055437f4bcbcb/tumblr_inline_p5usc26kn31qj0ox0_250.gif
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s0nicfan posted...

NibeIungsnarf posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Muslims overwhelmingly vote left in every single first world nation.

Because the right-wing looks racist and bigoted to everyone who isn't a WASP.

You're being a big dum dum. You don't believe that people who blow themselves up for conservative ideals are leftwing

I believe the left has wholeheartedly adopted islam as part of "their" group and pushed a message worldwide that the right hates muslims. You don't get to push that message and then ALSO blame all islamic violence as a problem with the right. They stop being "conservative ideals" when they're the ideals of people that overwhelmingly vote for liberal parties. At that point they're liberal ideals as much as nazis represent the conservative ideals because last I checked most conservatives don't support nazis.

i think you're too caught up in partisanship. it doesn't really matter who advocates for their rights or who they vote for. muslim extremism is tied to conservative ideals. it's a concrete fact doesn't change based on who other muslims vote for. islam itself is a conservative belief system and violence committed in the name of spreading it is tied to that.
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Ray-Ray posted...

Kitt posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

Kitt posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

I'm no lawyer

We can tell.

And you are?

I'm Kitt. Not to be confused with the Knight Rider car.

Yeah you ain't no Jack McCoy yourself

Hank McCoy >
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Ray-Ray posted...

boxington posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

boxington posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

Choco posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

wtf

EDIT: not defending hate crimes or anything but if the victim isn't even jewish then how is it a hate crime

hurr durr intentions don't matter

So if you cut off a person's head who is already dead you should be charged with murder?

this is a dumb analogy, bro

Nah your intent was murder

And we should charge people based on intent right?

how can you intend to murder someone who's already dead?

The person could be thought to be sleeping

Does that really have to be explained

you're comparing two different things, where damage is caused to a person in one, and none is caused in the other
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There are so many crazy people in the world. Who the hell does that? Just say they're Jewish for no reason?
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Ray-Ray posted...

Choco posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

wtf

EDIT: not defending hate crimes or anything but if the victim isn't even jewish then how is it a hate crime

hurr durr intentions don't matter

So if you cut off a person's head who is already dead you should be charged with murder?

This is a really terrible analogy, and yes, you should be charged with a crime - it's called "desecration of a corpse".
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I didn't know the political spectrum was so hard to understand.
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The analogy is about intent, you intended to commit a hate crime

You intended to kill someone

You should be charged differently here?
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Ray-Ray posted...

The analogy is about intent, you intended to commit a hate crime

You intended to kill someone

You should be charged differently here?

Again, your analogy was bad - at no point in your original post did you demonstrate any intent on the ax wielder's behalf to actually murder someone, all you stated was a hypothetical about someone beheading an already lifeless corpse. The implications are different.
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Ray-Ray posted...

The analogy is about intent, you intended to commit a hate crime

You intended to kill someone

You should be charged differently here?

I believe the difference lies in the inherent danger.

If you intend to kill someone because of something that an entire group shares (skin color, age, religion, etc.), then the entire group is technically in danger because of your intent.

If you intend to kill someone because that person stepped on your shoe, only that person is technically in danger because of your intent.
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dreamvoid posted...

s0nicfan posted...

NibeIungsnarf posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Muslims overwhelmingly vote left in every single first world nation.

Because the right-wing looks racist and bigoted to everyone who isn't a WASP.

You're being a big dum dum. You don't believe that people who blow themselves up for conservative ideals are leftwing

I believe the left has wholeheartedly adopted islam as part of "their" group and pushed a message worldwide that the right hates muslims. You don't get to push that message and then ALSO blame all islamic violence as a problem with the right. They stop being "conservative ideals" when they're the ideals of people that overwhelmingly vote for liberal parties. At that point they're liberal ideals as much as nazis represent the conservative ideals because last I checked most conservatives don't support nazis.

i think you're too caught up in partisanship. it doesn't really matter who advocates for their rights or who they vote for. muslim extremism is tied to conservative ideals. it's a concrete fact doesn't change based on who other muslims vote for. islam itself is a conservative belief system and violence committed in the name of spreading it is tied to that.

I may be. Honestly I'm just getting frustrated with the prevailing belief that everything "good" is left, and everything "bad" is right. The fact that the political left can simultaneously use islam against the right in politics while ALSO blaming any violence from islam on the right is just baffling.

And if the left truly, honestly believes that Islam is a conservative belief system that is "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs" then I really, REALLY wish they would stop going to bat for it, because that particular religion (the religion, not the people) is a cancer on the world that needs to reform very badly or go away entirely.
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Clearly you all must be liberals here blinded by rage because someone attacked someone they thought was Jewish confirming how horrible Trump is and justifying impeachment.

This isn't a hate crime and I don't know why any of you feel it needs to be
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s0nicfan posted...

I may be. Honestly I'm just getting frustrated with the prevailing belief that everything "good" is left, and everything "bad" is right. The fact that the political left can simultaneously use islam against the right in politics while ALSO blaming any violence from islam on the right is just baffling.

And if the left truly, honestly believes that Islam is a conservative belief system that is "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs" then I really, REALLY wish they would stop going to bat for it, because that particular religion (the religion, not the people) is a cancer on the world that needs to reform very badly or go away entirely.

Either you keep waffling back and forth between "Islam/Muslims" and "Muslim/Islamic Extremists" and you don't realize it or you think the two are the same thing. Which is it?
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Ray-Ray posted...

Clearly you all must be liberals here blinded by rage because someone attacked someone they thought was Jewish confirming how horrible Trump is and justifying impeachment.

This isn't a hate crime and I don't know why any of you feel it needs to be

Again, it's not about liberalism or hating Trump. It's about a guy attacking someone specifically because of his ethnic or religious background.

I am curious, if you are somehow serious about your line of reasoning, if there are any circumstances that could have been changed in this specific case that WOULD make it a hate crime?
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Hexenherz posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

Clearly you all must be liberals here blinded by rage because someone attacked someone they thought was Jewish confirming how horrible Trump is and justifying impeachment.

This isn't a hate crime and I don't know why any of you feel it needs to be

Again, it's not about liberalism or hating Trump. It's about a guy attacking someone specifically because of his ethnic or religious background.

I am curious, if you are somehow serious about your line of reasoning, if there are any circumstances that could have been changed in this specific case that WOULD make it a hate crime?

the attacker has to write a letter to the police explaining that it was indeed a hate crime.
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s0nicfan posted...

I may be. Honestly I'm just getting frustrated with the prevailing belief that everything "good" is left, and everything "bad" is right. The fact that the political left can simultaneously use islam against the right in politics while ALSO blaming any violence from islam on the right is just baffling.

And if the left truly, honestly believes that Islam is a conservative belief system that is "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs" then I really, REALLY wish they would stop going to bat for it, because that particular religion (the religion, not the people) is a cancer on the world that needs to reform very badly or go away entirely.

That's why I don't defend Islam. I do see it as being incompatible with my left ideals.

Ray-Ray posted...

Clearly you all must be liberals here blinded by rage because someone attacked someone they thought was Jewish confirming how horrible Trump is and justifying impeachment.

This isn't a hate crime and I don't know why any of you feel it needs to be

What does trump have to do with any of this?
We think it is a hate crime because intentions make something a hate crime.
Like there's a difference between attacking someone who is X and attacking someone because they are or you think they are X.
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he intended to commit a hate crime but didn't commit a hate crime
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s0nicfan posted...

I may be. Honestly I'm just getting frustrated with the prevailing belief that everything "good" is left, and everything "bad" is right

its not good vs bad. ideals that lead to violence like that tend to be far right ideals. that's just the truth. not everyone who holds those ideals are violent terrorists but if you are a violent extremist your ideals will tend to be far right. to say "this guy is now far left because he was a muslim and some muslims vote left" is incredibly dishonest.
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As unfortunate as this incident was, I can't help but laugh at the whole scenario.
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CableZL posted...

s0nicfan posted...

I may be. Honestly I'm just getting frustrated with the prevailing belief that everything "good" is left, and everything "bad" is right. The fact that the political left can simultaneously use islam against the right in politics while ALSO blaming any violence from islam on the right is just baffling.

And if the left truly, honestly believes that Islam is a conservative belief system that is "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs" then I really, REALLY wish they would stop going to bat for it, because that particular religion (the religion, not the people) is a cancer on the world that needs to reform very badly or go away entirely.

Either you keep waffling back and forth between "Islam/Muslims" and "Muslim/Islamic Extremists" and you don't realize it or you think the two are the same thing. Which is it?

I think Islam is a cancerous ideology and any muslim that is a practicing muslim objectively believes bad things. Extremists are the worst of the bunch, but if you go look at the pew research polls you'll find even "moderate" muslims are overwhelmingly antisemitic, believe strongly in speech laws, support others doing violence on their behalf, are against homosexuality, and a lot of other incredibly regressive things.

If you're a non-practicing muslim then sure, you're no different than a non-practicing christian, and I have absolutely nothing against you as a person. When I use the two terms interchangeably I'm explicitly referring to people who actively follow the faith. The extremists will blow you up while the "moderates" legislate against you. I know #NOTALL and all that, but just go look at the pew polls... it's #toomany
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Muffinz0rz posted...

wtf

EDIT: not defending hate crimes or anything but if the victim isn't even jewish then how is it a hate crime

Your logic means that premeditated murder is not a crime cus you didnt actually comitt the real crime, just like they didnt beat the real person of faith.
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Ray-Ray posted...

he intended to commit a hate crime but didn't commit a hate crime

In other crimes you might be able to make this distinction (for instance, if someone shoots someone with a gun but does not kill that person, it would be attempted manslaughter or attempted homicide, depending on the intent).

But for hate crimes, a different set of criteria would apply. An "intent to commit a hate crime" would be one where a person puts a bomb at a religious building, for instance, but the bomb fails to go off and then they catch the criminal.

In this case, the guy specifically attacked someone based on an ethnic or religious (or both) basis. That is the definition of a hate crime. Whether or not the person actually was that ethnicity or religion becomes entirely irrelevant. ESPECIALLY when you have witnesses and possibly video recording of the person specifically targeting Jews.
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s0nicfan posted...

The extremists will blow you up while the "moderates" legislate against you.

This same statement can be applied to Christians, too, right? Extremist Christians have been known to bomb abortion clinics. Christians have also been fighting to turn the United States into a theocracy. We've seen a recent election where Christians openly state the belief that you have to swear on the bible to serve in Congress.
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Hexenherz posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

he intended to commit a hate crime but didn't commit a hate crime

In other crimes you might be able to make this distinction (for instance, if someone shoots someone with a gun but does not kill that person, it would be attempted manslaughter or attempted homicide, depending on the intent).

But for hate crimes, a different set of criteria would apply. An "intent to commit a hate crime" would be one where a person puts a bomb at a religious building, for instance, but the bomb fails to go off and then they catch the criminal.

In this case, the guy specifically attacked someone based on an ethnic or religious (or both) basis. That is the definition of a hate crime. Whether or not the person actually was that ethnicity or religion becomes entirely irrelevant. ESPECIALLY when you have witnesses and possibly video recording of the person specifically targeting Jews.

all thats fine but at the end of the day he didn't commit a hate crime so how can you be charged with a hate crime

if i say i wanna attack a black person then rob a store is that a hate crime?

before you cry about the analogy, my intent (desire to attack black people) caused the crime no?
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CableZL posted...

s0nicfan posted...

The extremists will blow you up while the "moderates" legislate against you.

This same statement can be applied to Christians, too, right? Extremist Christians have been known to bomb abortion clinics. Christians have also been fighting to turn the United States into a theocracy. We've seen a recent election where Christians openly state the belief that you have to swear on the bible to serve in congress.

What's the phrase I see get thrown around a lot? "Whataboutism"? "But her emails"?

Not all ideologies are equal. Christianity has its problems, but it's also been through multiple reformations and has significantly softened its stance on a lot of issues. Every attempt to reform Islam has thus far resulted in the reformists being murdered. If you really want to compare the two, we can compare the two on a belief-by-belief basis in terms of official stances, and I can 100% assure you Christianity will come out on top as the far more moderate belief structure, much like how it would look far more extreme compared to Buddhism and all of them would look mild compared to the Aztec religion.

EDIT: And to be clear, I've spent a lot of time studying both. Christianity has a built in persecution complex... you're meant to suffer and be oppressed until you die as a reward to get into heaven. Islam has a built in conquest narrative and the result is a much bigger push towards conversion. Jesus was a pacifist. Muhammad was a warrior. It's not crazy to say the two are fundamentally different and that difference bleeds into nearly all their canonical positions on social issues.
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Ray-Ray posted...

if i say i wanna attack a black person then rob a store is that a hate crime?

before you cry about the analogy, my intent (desire to attack black people) caused the crime no?

Is the store ran by a black person and did you pick it for that reason?
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Ray-Ray posted...

Hexenherz posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

he intended to commit a hate crime but didn't commit a hate crime

In other crimes you might be able to make this distinction (for instance, if someone shoots someone with a gun but does not kill that person, it would be attempted manslaughter or attempted homicide, depending on the intent).

But for hate crimes, a different set of criteria would apply. An "intent to commit a hate crime" would be one where a person puts a bomb at a religious building, for instance, but the bomb fails to go off and then they catch the criminal.

In this case, the guy specifically attacked someone based on an ethnic or religious (or both) basis. That is the definition of a hate crime. Whether or not the person actually was that ethnicity or religion becomes entirely irrelevant. ESPECIALLY when you have witnesses and possibly video recording of the person specifically targeting Jews.

all thats fine but at the end of the day he didn't commit a hate crime so how can you be charged with a hate crime

if i say i wanna attack a black person then rob a store is that a hate crime?

before you cry about the analogy, my intent (desire to attack black people) caused the crime no?

Man you are terrible at analogies. Have a good one.
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This has become an impressively stupid topic.
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uwnim posted...

Is the store ran by a black person and did you pick it for that reason?

you can say you thought it was and turns out it wasn't if that helps
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s0nicfan posted...

CableZL posted...

s0nicfan posted...

The extremists will blow you up while the "moderates" legislate against you.

This same statement can be applied to Christians, too, right? Extremist Christians have been known to bomb abortion clinics. Christians have also been fighting to turn the United States into a theocracy. We've seen a recent election where Christians openly state the belief that you have to swear on the bible to serve in congress.

What's the phrase I see get thrown around a lot? "Whataboutism"? "But her emails"?

Not all ideologies are equal. Christianity has its problems, but it's also been through multiple reformations and has significantly softened its stance on a lot of issues. Every attempt to reform Islam has resulted in the reformists being murdered. If you really want to compare the two, we can compare the two on a belief-by-belief basis, and I can 100% assure you Christianity will come out on top as the far more moderate belief structure, much like how it would look far more extreme compared to Buddhism and all of them would look mild compared to the Aztec religion.

I agree that Christianity as a whole is more moderate than Islam as a whole, but... That wasn't "whataboutism." The political spectrum is just that, a spectrum. It's not a binary thing. There are similarities at the same time there are differences between Christianity and Islam, which is what I was getting at. They're both considered conservative belief systems, but on the political spectrum Islam is definitely more conservative than Christianity. The extremists of both are even more conservative.
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CableZL posted...

I agree that Christianity as a whole is more moderate than Islam as a whole, but... That wasn't "whataboutism." The political spectrum is just that, a spectrum. It's not a binary thing. There are similarities at the same time there are differences between Christianity and Islam, which is what I was getting at. They're both considered conservative belief systems, but on the political spectrum Islam is definitely more conservative than Christianity. The extremists of both are even more conservative.

Then I refer you back to a previous post:
s0nicfan posted...

And if the left truly, honestly believes that Islam is a conservative belief system that is "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs" then I really, REALLY wish they would stop going to bat for it, because that particular religion (the religion, not the people) is a cancer on the world that needs to reform very badly or go away entirely.

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s0nicfan posted...

And if the left truly, honestly believes that Islam is a conservative belief system that is "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs" then I really, REALLY wish they would stop going to bat for it, because that particular religion (the religion, not the people) is a cancer on the world that needs to reform very badly or go away entirely.

And I refer YOU back to a previous post where I question why you're waffling back and forth between "Islam/Muslims" and "Islamic/Muslim extremists." The part you're quoting "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs," was made in reference to the extremists, but you're trying to say it was made in reference to Islam as a whole.

You're confusing yourself.
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CableZL posted...

s0nicfan posted...

And if the left truly, honestly believes that Islam is a conservative belief system that is "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs" then I really, REALLY wish they would stop going to bat for it, because that particular religion (the religion, not the people) is a cancer on the world that needs to reform very badly or go away entirely.

And I refer YOU back to a previous post where I question why you're waffling back and forth between "Islam/Muslims" and "Islamic/Muslim extremists." The part you're quoting "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs," was made in reference to the extremists, but you're trying to say it was made in reference to Islam as a whole.

You're confusing yourself.

Whether it was meant specifically about the extremists I am in fact saying it applies to the whole. Again:
s0nicfan posted...

Extremists are the worst of the bunch, but if you go look at the pew research polls you'll find even "moderate" muslims are overwhelmingly antisemitic, believe strongly in speech laws, support others doing violence on their behalf, are against homosexuality, and a lot of other incredibly regressive things.

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hockeybub89 posted...

This has become an impressively stupid topic.

I'm still confused by the whole Muslim / Christianity argument tbh
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s0nicfan posted...

Extremists are the worst of the bunch, but if you go look at the pew research polls you'll find even "moderate" muslims are overwhelmingly antisemitic, believe strongly in speech laws, support others doing violence on their behalf, are against homosexuality, and a lot of other incredibly regressive things.

CableZL posted...

This same statement can be applied to Christians, too, right? Extremist Christians have been known to bomb abortion clinics. Christians have also been fighting to turn the United States into a theocracy. We've seen a recent election where Christians openly state the belief that you have to swear on the bible to serve in Congress.

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CableZL posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Extremists are the worst of the bunch, but if you go look at the pew research polls you'll find even "moderate" muslims are overwhelmingly antisemitic, believe strongly in speech laws, support others doing violence on their behalf, are against homosexuality, and a lot of other incredibly regressive things.

CableZL posted...

This same statement can be applied to Christians, too, right? Extremist Christians have been known to bomb abortion clinics. Christians have also been fighting to turn the United States into a theocracy. We've seen a recent election where Christians openly state the belief that you have to swear on the bible to serve in Congress.

Now we're just talking in circles. I already pointed out (and you AGREED, see below) that christianity as a whole is a more moderate religion. So my statement that Islam AS A WHOLE is more regressive should be something we agree on at the surface level because one follows from the other.
CableZL posted...

I agree that Christianity as a whole is more moderate than Islam as a whole

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s0nicfan posted...

Now we're just talking in circles. I already pointed out (and you AGREED) that christianity as a whole is a more moderate religion. So my statement that Islam AS A WHOLE is more regressive should be something we agree on at the surface level because one follows from the other.

It's going in circles because of your attempt to equate extremist Islam beliefs with Islam as a whole. I agree that Islam as a whole is more conservative than Christianity as it stands today, but again, the extremists of both are even further right on the political spectrum.

In regard to the political spectrum, both Christianity and Islam are conservative ideologies.

Similarities and differences. The political spectrum refers to a range of political beliefs in relation to each other and isn't a binary (or even a good vs bad) thing.
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CrimsonRage posted...

s0nicfan posted...

I may be. Honestly I'm just getting frustrated with the prevailing belief that everything "good" is left, and everything "bad" is right. The fact that the political left can simultaneously use islam against the right in politics while ALSO blaming any violence from islam on the right is just baffling.

And if the left truly, honestly believes that Islam is a conservative belief system that is "religious, anti-gay, and willing to do harm to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs" then I really, REALLY wish they would stop going to bat for it, because that particular religion (the religion, not the people) is a cancer on the world that needs to reform very badly or go away entirely.

that's no excuse to try to force an equivalency when there is none. especially when there are already examples of violent leftists (like anarchists and revolutionary communists) so you don't have to force Radical Islam into "far left" just so you can scream "BOTH SIDES!" Sometimes, there really isn't a "same thing, both sides" to a situation. Violent religious extremists, no matter the religion, is far right.

The Left wouldn't have to fight for Islam so much if the Right wasn't so against it to ludicrously. trust me, most leftists don't like defending Islam all the time but some feel they have to because rightists go so far in the other direction to be against them. leftists see themselves as champions of oppressed peoples and the right's zealotry against muslims makes muslims an oppressed people.

Then don't defend it. Don't defend something bad just because "the other guy" is against it. To your point about "sometimes there isn't a same thing" argument, if the right is against something that's bad, the left doesn't have to defend it JUST BECAUSE the right is against it. Accept that maybe the right is SOMETIMES right about something even if they're wrong about many other things rather than being contrarian for the sake of it.
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s0nicfan posted...

if the right is against something that's bad, the left doesn't have to defend it JUST BECAUSE the right is against it..

It's not about defending it "because the right is against it." Like he said, it's about defending it "because the right goes too far in the other direction." There's a difference.
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Example: Both liberals and conservatives agree that something should be done about Islamic extremists. Liberals don't think Trump's repeated calls to ban all Muslims from entering the United States is an acceptable solution, though. That's going too far.
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sad how much israel has brainwashed the world
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Third_Eye posted...

sad how much israel has brainwashed the world

Nearly 50% of people globally have never heard of the Holocaust. 32% think it's a myth. Take your antisemitism elsewhere.
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/05/half-of-people-surveyed-by-the-adl-dont-know-what-the-holocaust-is/370801/
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Kitt posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

Kitt posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

Kitt posted...

Ray-Ray posted...

I'm no lawyer

We can tell.

And you are?

I'm Kitt. Not to be confused with the Knight Rider car.

Yeah you ain't no Jack McCoy yourself

Hank McCoy >

This post triggers me massively.

Sam Waterston.
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Izmir Koch

That surname is often Jewish.

post
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Wtf. What the hell triggered him to go ask random people if they are jewish then attack the first one that replies

Hate crimes are dumb and shouldn't exist.

That said, what an idiot for claiming Jewish for no reason and getting beat for it.
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uwnim posted...

s0nicfan posted...

mustachedmystic posted...

Jeez, I wonder where this guy lands on the political spectrum?!? Yup, I went there

Either far right neo-nazi or far left muslim extremist.

Both of those would be far right. Far left would be something like a Communist who thinks jews control the evil capitalist society.

Why is the left allied with 'far-right' muslim extremists?
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