Board 8 > Family believes TAMIFLU led to teen's suicide

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://fox6now.com/2018/01/31/family-believes-tamiflu-led-to-teens-suicide/

The couple told WXIN the teen had never expressed suicidal thoughts before and had no signs of depression. The only change, they say, had been he started taking Tamiflu.

The Tamilfu warning label clearly states pediatric patients may be at an increased risk of confusion or abnormal behavior. The Rays say they werent properly warned about what that could mean.

He had a total of two doses, said Jackie Ray. Two doses and this is where we are.

Buyer beware
---

family not doctors and probably don't know what they're talking about
---

Yeah doctors are supreme beings with higher levels of thought who are the only ones who can be trusted with making deductions.
---

yes I agree
---

Cool. No arguments to be had here on gamespot dot gamefaqs dot com.

See you next topic
---

hmm, i see in my papers here that he was consuming copious quantities of the known dangerous substance hydrogen dioxide

i don't think we need to look at any actual data before banning this chemical compound
---

SantaRPidgey posted...

Yeah doctors are supreme beings with higher levels of thought who are the only ones who can be trusted with making deductions.

I'll disagree then.

I think doctors are just normal people with a special education in a particular topic.
---

banananor posted...

known dangerous substance hydrogen dioxide

banananor I love you

so I'm going to overlook you using the objectively awful "water is a chemical" argument this one time.
---

SantaRPidgey posted...

banananor posted...

known dangerous substance hydrogen dioxide

banananor I love you

so I'm going to overlook you using the objectively awful "water is a chemical" argument this one time.

What is your degree in?
---

Based on your two replies this topic, I'm going to bet heavily on "not science related".
---

I don't have any degree.

Do I need one to point out how stupid comparing consuming water to literally any other chemical on earth is colossally intellectually dishonest?
---

It might help.
---

It isn't though.

Water, like any other compound, is toxic at the right dosage. I don't mean drowning, either, because water toxicity is a very well documented occurrence. People tend to divide things into "safe" or "not safe", which is wrong. It is all about dosages. "At what dosage is something safe" is a much better question. Water actually demonstrates that quite well, because even the most benign of substances is dangerous at the right dosage.

So going "this contains X and X was shown to be dangerous! (at concentrations one hundred times greater than this but lets ignore that" is a bad argument. That's typically the context I see "well but water is a chemical too" argument brought in, and as such I think it is a perfectly fine argument.
---

SantaRPidgey posted...

I don't have any degree.

Do I need one to point out how stupid comparing consuming water to literally any other chemical on earth is colossally intellectually dishonest?

This kind of attitude is why idiots die in things like "Hold your wee for a Wii" contests.
---

psaltery posted...

The couple told WXIN the teen had never expressed suicidal thoughts before and had no signs of depression.

my first reaction is to be skeptical because (1) a lot of families don't know their kids that well and (2) some people are good at putting up a front, even if they're falling apart inside

on the other hand, the maker of Tamiflu admits (in response to this incident) that "neuropsychiatric events" can be a side effect, which is pretty shady
---

Well, it's possible. The side effects are stated to include some psychological impact, just not to this extent. On the other hand sometimes people just don't know how bad someone close to them is feeling.
---

Two doses ain't gonna cause it unless they were well over the dosage limit, or he was suicidal/depressed already.
---

paperwarior posted...

The side effects are stated to include some psychological impact, just not to this extent.

StealThisSheen posted...

Two doses ain't gonna cause it unless they were well over the dosage limit, or he was suicidal/depressed already.

yeah see this was my initial reaction, but if that were the case, why not just deny fault? the fact that the Tamiflu spokesperson is hedging so much makes me wonder if there's actually merit behind the parents' theory
---

SantaRPidgey posted...

Do I need one to point out how stupid comparing consuming water to literally any other chemical on earth is colossally intellectually dishonest?

Yes, explain it. I want to see just how intellectually honest your position is.
---

Gatarix posted...

paperwarior posted...

The side effects are stated to include some psychological impact, just not to this extent.

StealThisSheen posted...

Two doses ain't gonna cause it unless they were well over the dosage limit, or he was suicidal/depressed already.

yeah see this was my initial reaction, but if that were the case, why not just deny fault? the fact that the Tamiflu spokesperson is hedging so much makes me wonder if there's actually merit behind the parents' theory

He can't deny it because it's already a listed side effect. It'd be like the makers of Cinnamon Toast Crunch going "You know what... There's not cinnamon and sugar swirls in every bite, after all."
---

Gatarix posted...

psaltery posted...

The couple told WXIN the teen had never expressed suicidal thoughts before and had no signs of depression.

my first reaction is to be skeptical because (1) a lot of families don't know their kids that well and (2) some people are good at putting up a front, even if they're falling apart inside

on the other hand, the maker of Tamiflu admits (in response to this incident) that "neuropsychiatric events" can be a side effect, which is pretty shady

^

Almost half of all depression caused suicides have some sort of "but he/she seemed so happy" etc. Depressed people can hide their depression very well, sometimes for long periods of time.

All medications have side effects, and Tamiflu's were well reported (on the side of the packaging) so there is nothing shady about it. Tamiflu is remarkably effective at treating the flu, and has saved significantly more people than it has hurt. If it affects 0.01% of the population (and the data here isn't even that high, but for arguments sake), but treats 99% effectively, that is a tradeoff almost all doctors are going to take, particularly if you are dealing with significant symptoms of the flu.

(Also psychological side effects were reported after long term exposure, not just a couple of doses. And the psychological side effects actually do not include suicidal thoughts or ideations but rather changes to thought and behavior). How many people take Tamiflu every year? Have you heard of a rash of suicides as a result of taking Tamiflu, or is this the first story you've heard about it? It is easy to say "oh he took x and then y happened, it must have caused it!" But that is almost never the case.
---

Gatarix posted...

paperwarior posted...

The side effects are stated to include some psychological impact, just not to this extent.

StealThisSheen posted...

Two doses ain't gonna cause it unless they were well over the dosage limit, or he was suicidal/depressed already.

yeah see this was my initial reaction, but if that were the case, why not just deny fault? the fact that the Tamiflu spokesperson is hedging so much makes me wonder if there's actually merit behind the parents' theory

From my experience with psychiatry (as a patient >.>), I think it's very hard to tell in general what possible effects any drug can have on the brain. Sure it's a single case, but if they don't look into it and it turns into a more widespread thing, they get bad PR and probably a rightful class action suit.
---

basically anything that fucks with your gut biome hard enough can cause a pretty drastic mental shift
---

The brain simply doesn't work like that, anyway. You're not gonna go from "Never a depressed thought" to suicide after two doses of anything. For that radical of a change, it'd require either an overdose or long-time dependency. The most it can do in normal circumstances is amplify feelings/thoughts that are already there.
---

That is to say, there is a reason you're reading about this from some local fox affiliate and not Science or Nature or NEJM.

And it isn't because a big ol' truck of Tamiflu money pulled up to literally buy off every single medical researcher that had anything to do with its 10+ year approva/usagel process.
---

Yeah, it is pretty hard to believe that two doses would have a dramatic effect when any number of doses have never had that effect on anyone.
---

Suprak the Stud posted...

(Also psychological side effects were reported after long term exposure, not just a couple of doses. And the psychological side effects actually do not include suicidal thoughts or ideations but rather changes to thought and behavior).

You'd think they would come out and say this. Like this is 100x more reassuring than a bland "mental effects can happen, watch your kids closely"

But you and SEP seem well-versed in this subject so I'm willing to buy it.
---

StealThisSheen posted...

The brain simply doesn't work like that, anyway. You're not gonna go from "Never a depressed thought" to suicide after two doses of anything.

Oh oh! I'm a PhD candidate in neuroscience who has taught graduate level drug discovery courses and feel qualified in telling you that you are incredibly incorrect! Yay!
---

Well then I tentatively withdraw my buy.

I am UNDECIDED. How about that.
---

OliviaTremor posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

The brain simply doesn't work like that, anyway. You're not gonna go from "Never a depressed thought" to suicide after two doses of anything.

Oh oh! I'm a PhD candidate in neuroscience who has taught graduate level drug discovery courses and feel qualified in telling you that you are incredibly incorrect! Yay!

Whoa! High five. I just finished my PhD in molecular biology and now am working in a lab handling clinical samples.

I didn't know there were other science PhDs on here.

(Good luck!)
---

Gatarix posted...

Well then I tentatively withdraw my buy.

I am UNDECIDED. How about that.

Nothing they said was regarding the specific "dangers" of Tamiflu!

Tamiflu is safe. It has gone through extensive testing. Side effects are rare and mostly minor. All drugs have some side effects. If your doctor prescribes Tamiflu, there is probably a good reason so please listen to years of research and medical advice over "one grieving family desperately trying to make sense out of a tragic situation".
---

OliviaTremor posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

The brain simply doesn't work like that, anyway. You're not gonna go from "Never a depressed thought" to suicide after two doses of anything.

Oh oh! I'm a PhD candidate in neuroscience who has taught graduate level drug discovery courses and feel qualified in telling you that you are incredibly incorrect! Yay!

Care to explain?

Unless you're referring to drugs outside of pharmaceuticals and/or drugs specifically designed to do such a thing as treatment.
---

SantaRPidgey posted...

banananor posted...

known dangerous substance hydrogen dioxide

banananor I love you

so I'm going to overlook you using the objectively awful "water is a chemical" argument this one time.

thank u

i come from a certain place because my mom is/was a crazy anti-vaxxer (the vaccinations == autism variety) and this topic feels like the same thing

There just needs to be actual research and trials, which have obviously already been done and found tamiflu safe.

i'm willing to follow data, and at the same time it seems just as likely that the parents didn't know their child as well as they thought they did.

Hell, if I had a child that killed themselves, I'd probably do anything to rationalize it or deflect whatever guilt or blame was heading my way.
---

That being said the overall benefit of Tamiflu seems relatively minor and thus there are some valid questions about whether or not it really needs to be prescribes except for in at risk populations. It does show a reduction in length and severity in symptoms at a high confidence interval, but at the same time it seems unnecessary overall unless someone is suffering from a particular significant bout of the flu.

EDIT: Here is the best, most recent meta analysis I read in regards to Tamiflu, for the curious. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)62449-1/abstract
---

at the same time, they didn't specify the manner of suicide. i could totally see someone getting confused and leaving the car on in the garage or something

even common anti-depression medication has "suicide" as a potential side effect, so I guess it's a wash. I assumed this topic was a raining cats and dogs scenario, but I guess I could see needing to be a little careful
---

StealThisSheen posted...

The brain simply doesn't work like that, anyway. You're not gonna go from "Never a depressed thought" to suicide after two doses of anything. For that radical of a change, it'd require either an overdose or long-time dependency. The most it can do in normal circumstances is amplify feelings/thoughts that are already there.

Bruh people can eat gluten and get depressed because of it. It's not by any means a stretch for this to transpire. Whether it caused it or not, who knows, but saying "the brain simply doesn't work like that" is an overconfident statement, to say the least.
---

I would need to see a peer reviewed article about "single time gluten ingestion leading to depression" because uh that sounds very not true.

Gluten "poisoning" you as a whole has been greatly overhyped by the pseudo nutritionists.
---

SantaRPidgey posted...

basically anything that fucks with your gut biome hard enough can cause a pretty drastic mental shift

like a hot dog
---

HotDogButts posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

The brain simply doesn't work like that, anyway. You're not gonna go from "Never a depressed thought" to suicide after two doses of anything. For that radical of a change, it'd require either an overdose or long-time dependency. The most it can do in normal circumstances is amplify feelings/thoughts that are already there.

Bruh people can eat gluten and get depressed because of it. It's not by any means a stretch for this to transpire. Whether it caused it or not, who knows, but saying "the brain simply doesn't work like that" is an overconfident statement, to say the least.

It was perhaps a poor word choice

What I mean to say is that dosage is typically at levels that are too low to cause more severe side effects without some other underlying factor. When I say "the brain doesn't work that way," I mean that the brain doesn't go "This thing has X in it that can cause depression, and you took it? Boom, I'm instantly massively, brokenly depressed!" That's not to say it can't happen, I'm merely saying... It's not like a boolean. It's not as if the brain has coding that goes:

if chemical == true {
depression = max
} else {
depression = 0
}

I'm trying to say that just because a side effect is listed, that doesn't automatically mean it's going to happen if you follow dosing correctly. And it's going to be extremely rare for such a thing to happen without other factors, such as overdosage, extended use, and so on.

I shouldn't have spoken in absolutes, my bad. My point is moreso that the likelihood of such a massive change happening after two correct doses is so small that it shouldn't be something one jumps to as the cause.
---

Literally anything can make a person feel depressed. However, two doses of something won't force an otherwise mentally healthy person to fall far enough to kill themselves. I mean, that would be the perfect murder weapon if it did exist.
---

StealThisSheen posted...

I'm trying to say that just because a side effect is listed, that doesn't automatically mean it's going to happen if you follow dosing correctly. And it's going to be extremely rare for such a thing to happen without other factors, such as overdosage, extended use, and so on.

I shouldn't have spoken in absolutes, my bad. My point is moreso that the likelihood of such a massive change happening after two correct doses is so small that it shouldn't be something one jumps to as the cause.

I 100% agree it should not be assumed that it was the cause. And I agree that it is likely to be very rare, given modern pharma regulations. Only that people's bodies react in unique ways, and something even listing mental confusion/duress/whatever the exact wording was as a possible side effect shouldn't be automatically dismissed as not leading to this. I don't know the science behind this drug AT ALL, but it's not unprecedented for people to have extreme reactions to minimal exposure of things. We've gotten pretty great at surviving as a species but then there's still those people who can smell a peanut and die.
---

Are we really going to James Bond territory Mysterious Drug X now? >_>
I should refill my popcorn bucket.
---

Mobilezoid posted...

Literally anything can make a person feel depressed. However, two doses of something won't force an otherwise mentally healthy person to fall far enough to kill themselves. I mean, that would be the perfect murder weapon if it did exist.

No one is contending Tamiflu is an insta suicide pill
---

StealThisSheen posted...

OliviaTremor posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

The brain simply doesn't work like that, anyway. You're not gonna go from "Never a depressed thought" to suicide after two doses of anything.

Oh oh! I'm a PhD candidate in neuroscience who has taught graduate level drug discovery courses and feel qualified in telling you that you are incredibly incorrect! Yay!

Care to explain?

Unless you're referring to drugs outside of pharmaceuticals and/or drugs specifically designed to do such a thing as treatment.

I have a very hard time believing that a drug with such a drastic side effect in two approved doses could pass testing/be approved for consumer sale.

Sure. Sorry if my post seemed condescending.

Let's look at Tamiflu, a Neuraminidase inhibitor. This viral protein isn't expressed within humans, making it a good druggable target with drastically limited off target effects. However, there are genes/proteins within the human genome with some sequences which are homologous for the most part. Now, each person's genome is unique and contains plenty of single nucleotide polymorphisms, or mutations, scattered throughout. Some of these are deleterious, such as for example the APC(min) mutation which is a single mutation in a single gene that predisposes you to colorectal cancer. Now, it is very possible that there exists humans with a single nucleotide polymorphism which disrupts a crucial protein, creating an active binding site for the drug Tamiflu where there shouldn't be. There are human neuramidase's and it is possible some people have SNPs allowing Tamiflu to bind when it shouldn't, thus these human neuramidase's no longer function properly. If this protein is normally expressed within specific neuronal subtypes critical for cognitive function, and it is no lunger working, it is possible cognitive function will be heavily impaired. This is one of the reasons why some people have different side effects than others. You can get more into it, involving how each person has different levels of proteins and stuff, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation.

The reason you probably won't see stuff like this until clinical trials or the drug is on the market is because for FDA approval you need to test it in a mammalian model-- typically a mouse. You might test it in 100 mice with varying efficacy, but each mouse is on the same background (ie tightly regulated and controlled so that their genome is close to identical, think of a family from the UK vs a family from Thailand).

All that said, I doubt Tamiflu was responsible for the person's death but who knows. Suicide is an intense subject with so many factors.
---

OliviaTremor posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

OliviaTremor posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

The brain simply doesn't work like that, anyway. You're not gonna go from "Never a depressed thought" to suicide after two doses of anything.

Oh oh! I'm a PhD candidate in neuroscience who has taught graduate level drug discovery courses and feel qualified in telling you that you are incredibly incorrect! Yay!

Care to explain?

Unless you're referring to drugs outside of pharmaceuticals and/or drugs specifically designed to do such a thing as treatment.

I have a very hard time believing that a drug with such a drastic side effect in two approved doses could pass testing/be approved for consumer sale.

Sure. Sorry if my post seemed condescending.

Let's look at Tamiflu, a Neuraminidase inhibitor. This viral protein isn't expressed within humans, making it a good druggable target with drastically limited off target effects. However, there are genes/proteins within the human genome with some sequences which are homologous for the most part. Now, each person's genome is unique and contains plenty of single nucleotide polymorphisms, or mutations, scattered throughout. Some of these are deleterious, such as for example the APC(min) mutation which is a single mutation in a single gene that predisposes you to colorectal cancer. Now, it is very possible that there exists humans with a single nucleotide polymorphism which disrupts a crucial protein, creating an active binding site for the drug Tamiflu where there shouldn't be. There are human neuramidase's and it is possible some people have SNPs allowing Tamiflu to bind when it shouldn't, thus these human neuramidase's no longer function properly. If this protein is normally expressed within specific neuronal subtypes critical for cognitive function, and it is no lunger working, it is possible cognitive function will be heavily impaired. This is one of the reasons why some people have different side effects than others. You can get more into it, involving how each person has different levels of proteins and stuff, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation.

The reason you probably won't see stuff like this until clinical trials or the drug is on the market is because for FDA approval you need to test it in a mammalian model-- typically a mouse. You might test it in 100 mice with varying efficacy, but each mouse is on the same background (ie tightly regulated and controlled so that their genome is close to identical, think of a family from the UK vs a family from Thailand).

All that said, I doubt Tamiflu was responsible for the person's death but who knows. Suicide is an intense subject with so many factors.

Thanks for the detailed response!

Yeah, I understand there are obviously things you can't account for, and I admitted that speaking in absolutes was a mistake. I was speaking moreso in general that... Presence of A doesn't automatically mean Condition B, and that there are often contributing factors to that. The brain itself isn't hardcoded to go

if itemA.contains(chemicalB) {
radicalSideEffectC = true
}

in most cases. Now, obviously, that's not to say something can't cause it to be, as you say. My argument was moreso an argument of... Other factors should be considered before just instantly jumping to "Tamiflu did it!"
---

The reason you probably won't see stuff like this until clinical trials or the drug is on the market is because for FDA approval you need to test it in a mammalian model-- typically a mouse. You might test it in 100 mice with varying efficacy, but each mouse is on the same background (ie tightly regulated and controlled so that their genome is close to identical, think of a family from the UK vs a family from Thailand).

This is grossly untrue, or at least phrased completely incorrectly.

http://www.fdareview.org/03_drug_development.php

To get FDA approval is very tough, especially today. There are absolutely no drugs that hit the market tested only on mice.

Any drug that has FDA approval is tested on humans for YEARS before it can hit the market. Preclinical trials are conducted on animals, sure, but clinical trials are done on humans through multiple phases testing toxicity, efficacy, long term exposure, etc. The only time this is fast tracked at all is if it is considered a life saving medicine of urgent importance (i.e. this is a drug that shows promise in treating terminal cancer patients or something of those lines.)

Seeing things after they hit the market is incredibly rare, almost unheard of in modern studies and is usually the result of gross negligance if it does happen.
---

Well yeah you test it on a mammalian model during that 6 to 7 year preclinical time period and then it goes to clinical trials. I mentioned one aspect of the approval process and elaborated on it as an explanation for why you won't necessarily see the side effects until the clinical trials or it is on the market
---

While I am not a neuro grad student, I am v pleased with my clinical psych education that I understood everything NotYou mentioned

That being said, it's highly unlikely that Tamiflu had any meaningful effect on this kid's mental state. You're probably more likely to die from refusing to take Tamiflu than from taking Tamiflu.

In all likelihood, the parents are somewhere between denial and bargaining as they deal with the grief of their son's suicide. He probably hid it well, and certainly we all know that people about to commit suicide often seem like they're doing well, in large part because they have finally come to a resolution for their problems. It's a sad story (and Tamiflu seems like a questionable antiflu drug to begin with), but it's so unlikely that there's any real connection between the drug and his death.
---