Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi spoiler thread 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

(Also it's super funny that Snoke apparently got that prophecy entirely right, even if he was fatally misinterpreting it. So by chopping off the face of "YOUR DESTINY", Kylo was playing right into destiny)
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Snoke pretty much insulted Kylo Ren right to his face, basically calling him a piece of shit.

You could tell Kylo didn't like that just from his expression.
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DeathChicken posted...

Kylo didn't even kill Snoke because "OMG I'm light side and good again", he killed him because Snoke was the embodiment of every bit of prophecy related bullshit he hated. Like Snoke said right before he ate it, that made him Kylo's real enemy

I dunno man, I get that Kylo has his own selfish reasons to kill Snoke independent of whatever Rey is doing.

But they pretty clearly show him reacting emotionally to Snoke choking her and shit. He's pretty clearly into her. If she doesn't show up, he doesn't get that opportunity to kill Snoke while he's distracted with something else.

The point is, that whole sequence was not a "defeat" for her in any legitimate sense. She didn't lose anything. She left that ship with a dead sith lord, her friends still alive, and proof that Kylo wasn't fully dark, even if she didn't immediately completely turn him right then.

Contrast this to the end of ESB when Luke leaves Coruscant with Han captured, a missing hand, no lightsaber, and having just had his ass completely handed to him by Darth Vader - to the extent that Yoda and Ghostbi-Wan are already discussing the backup plan. That's what defeat and failure looks like.
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That has less to do with Rey and more to do with Snoke forcing a situation where he was yelling at Kylo to FULFILL YOUR DESTINY DAMMIT like five minutes after calling him an idiot who could never live up to Vader
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SmartMuffin posted...

Contrast this to the end of ESB when Luke leaves Coruscant with Han captured, a missing hand, no lightsaber, and having just had his ass completely handed to him by Darth Vader - to the extent that Yoda and Ghostbi-Wan are already discussing the backup plan. That's what defeat and failure looks like.

And Rey leaves the movie with getting her ass handed to her by Snoke, Kylo leading the New Order, Luke dead, the Resistance in complete shambles, and no lightsaber. But I guess she still has both hands so she's perfect.

The whole movie is about failure! No one comes out ahead in TLJ except for the shifty codebreaker guy (which is perfect). EVERYONE fails, including the villains.
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Eh, I don't think so. IIRC the camera shifts from Rey suffering to Kylo getting all emo. The whole scene was structured pretty damn similar to Luke, Vader, and Palpatine at the end of ROTJ.

Kylo clearly has feelings for her. Snoke forced a situation where Kylo had to choose between her and his master. If Kylo doesn't kill Snoke, Snoke would have killed Rey. He made the same choice Vader did.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No one comes out ahead in TLJ except for the shifty codebreaker guy (which is perfect).

For how vocal I am about disliking Finn's arc, this here fit the movie's themes so damn well. They not only had an honest-to-god true neutral character in a Star Wars movie, but he ends up being the only person the movie ends well for.
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He didn't kill Leia either when all he had to do was shoot, so it's not like his motivation rested entirely on trying to get laid
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Was he trying to troll Kylo? Mission accomplished (got em good!), but how does that really affect Kylo long-term?

He had to give Kylo a major failure because the movie is about how holding on to the past causes you to fail (his hate of Luke)

So now Kylo doesn't have anything holding him back anymore
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I mean, TLJ Luke is the funniest Star Wars character in nine movies, so it doesn't seem that far fetched. He trolled as a Jedi master and literally the last member of his religion. Trolling as a ghost would be easy mode.

Yoda ghost trolled way harder already
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foolm0r0n posted...

CaptainOfCrush posted...

I mean, TLJ Luke is the funniest Star Wars character in nine movies, so it doesn't seem that far fetched. He trolled as a Jedi master and literally the last member of his religion. Trolling as a ghost would be easy mode.

Yoda ghost trolled way harder already

Yoda being in this series at all is some of the most blatantly pointless pandering we've ever seen
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and yet I loved it anyway
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Yeah

I rolled my eyes when Yoda appeared

And yet...I still had this big grin on my face
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SmartMuffin posted...

I'm just really sad that Kylo isn't stronger.

Like, his whole character is supposed to be "ridiculously huge natural power level but a lack of discipline" - like Anakin but even moreso.

The fight against the red guards was awesome for this though. Kylo was obliterating multiple of them with really crazy forms. Rey struggled against just 1 or them.
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I didn't mind it until he summoned lightning. As a ghost.

I mean, you can say "The Force lets you do that" even though we never saw Force Ghosts do anything that could affect the living world before, but it kind of ruins the idea of Force Ghosts only being there to give advice. Why not just appear in front of the First Order and zap them all to death? They wouldn't be able to stop him, he's already dead.
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I went from "holy shit it's Yoda!" to "oh no this is just gonna be bad fanservice" to "whoa did they get the puppet Yoda back???" It's a sweet scene.

I think in retrospect it's even better because Yoda is casually explaining every theme in the movie. Only Yoda can do it like that. So nah, definitely not pointless.
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Totally fair, I definitely did enjoy that part and it did make sense in that respect.

Although I'm still wondering why the guards gave a shit. They were personally loyal to Snoke for some reason? Why wouldn't they just accept Kylo as the new leader following a fairly natural and typical Sith transition of power?
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SmartMuffin posted...

Although I'm still wondering why the guards gave a shit. They were personally loyal to Snoke for some reason? Why wouldn't they just accept Kylo as the new leader following a fairly natural and typical Sith transition of power?

Everyone is loyal to Snoke. They follow him because he's "The Supreme Leader," not because he's a Sith lord, and Kylo is Snoke's weird pet that nobody likes. That's exactly in line with how Palpatine/Vader are treated in the OT, except Vader got respect. No one respects Kylo, and Hux is even about to assassinate him before he comes to after the fight (which is a great moment).
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Just saw movie. Was OK. What are next?
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Yoda didn't cast the lightning himself, there was already a storm going on. Yoda just directed one of the bolts from the sky.

That's totally in line with what a Force ghost should be able to do, he's actually one with the Force so directing a force of nature seems appropriate.
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_Harmonica_ posted...

Just saw movie. Was OK. What are next?

The Han Solo movie.
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skullbone posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

I think it just adds to his character that not only is he not as good as Vader, he's not even as good as some random trash girl. He's supposed to be a LEGEND just because he's related to Luke/Vader but he can't come to terms with the fact that he's a complete loser.

And see, I'd be okay with this too, but they don't really follow through on it. Luke acts like Kylo really is that damn powerful. Luke was so afraid of this kid he was seconds away from murdering a defenseless teenager (who is his nephew BTW) in his sleep. Don't tell me that on one hand, and then "Kylo's defining trait is that he's actually not that powerful and isn't capable of much" on the other.

Well you could still be powerful but not on Vader/Luke's level. I mean we don't really a good measure of Kylo's power when we only have Snoke to compare him to. Yes we can compare him to Rey but we don't have any good measure of her power either! Kylo literally froze blaster bolts in mid-air so he's probably a lot stronger than we're giving him credit but he's also being gaslighted by Snoke at every moment.

Yeah, umm I think some people are really underselling Kylo in this topic. Personally I think what he's demonstrated so far puts his power level at least on Vader's level if not already comfortably surpassing him. He's just looks incompetent
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I fucking hate the mobile site so much...

Rest of that post incoming....
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He looks bad because...

1) he never actually knew Vader so he's comparing himself to a legend he can never live up to, in his mind.

2) his emotional problems and lack of discipline (intentionally fueled by Snoke) lead him to make bad decisions.

3) Everyone else around him has also been buffed to crazy levels compared to previous movies.

Don't be fooled though, in terms of raw power potential he's still a monster.
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_Harmonica_ posted...

Just saw movie. Was OK. What are next?

I love the straightforwardness of this post relative to the rest of the internet
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Jeff Zero posted...

_Harmonica_ posted...

Just saw movie. Was OK. What are next?

I love the straightforwardness of this post relative to the rest of the internet

unfortunately it's a joke stolen from red letter media. they haven't talked about the new movie yet though so I don't know what I thought of it yet.

(I'll make a real effortpost later)
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re: Luke being scared of Kylo -- I'm sure Luke is frightened of this because of his father being Darth Vader. he's probably even quicker to react to someone turning to the dark side than Yoda.
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Kylo Ren is stronger than Vader in the OT. No way he's stronger than Vader before the suit.
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Well Anakin never reached his full potential so that's difficult to measure.
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GranzonEx posted...

Kylo Ren is stronger than Vader in the OT. No way he's stronger than Vader before the suit.

I don't think I buy this. Force strength is relative, not absolute. OT Vader was stronger than raw, minimally trained Luke. By a lot. Kylo is about even with raw, not-at-all-trained Rey.
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I look at it like this. Vader never hit his full potential after turning to the dark side. He lost to Obi Wan before he could fulfill his potential. But he was trained to wield both the Force and lightsabers before his defeat.

From the looks of this new trilogy and the OT, it looks like the art of lightsaber combat was lost during the Jedi purge. That's why Luke in the OT looked like he was just thrashing about with his lightsaber. That's why Kylo Ren looks like he's chopping wood with his lightsaber. Remember that lightsabers are basically weightless. There's really no need to swing those things around like they are baseball bats.

Kylo Ren would get destroyed by 100% Vader.
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Jeff Zero posted...

I love the straightforwardness of this post relative to the rest of the internet

Seems to be a very common kind of reaction though. It was okay.
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Also for anyone who played DDLC, Snoke is basically Monika.
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I feel like the new movies are pretty strongly hinting at what has long been a fan theory - that lightsaber combat really isn't about fencing skill or any such thing, and that it's a manifestation of one's general power and ability with the force itself. That's why Rey is competent at it the second she picks one up. That to any extent lightsaber combat was a part of "jedi training" it wasn't about how you wield the saber specifically, but how you harness and wield the force against other force users.

Edit: That's also why Yoda is really proficient in it in AOTC when he wants to be, even though normally he hobbles around with a cane. It's not that Yoda is a really great swordfighter, it's that he's really strong in the force and being able to be great with a lightsaber is just something that people strong in the force are able to do.
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SmartMuffin posted...

I feel like the new movies are pretty strongly hinting at what has long been a fan theory - that lightsaber combat really isn't about fencing skill or any such thing, and that it's a manifestation of one's general power and ability with the force itself. That's why Rey is competent at it the second she picks one up. That to any extent lightsaber combat was a part of "jedi training" it wasn't about how you wield the saber specifically, but how you harness and wield the force against other force users.

I think it's probably a combo of both because there are lightsaber wielders in the (canon) comics that don't seem to have any force sensitivity. Han gets a hold of a lightsaber and says he had to focus all of his thoughts into not doing something stupid and cutting his own hand off.

So enough skill with either the force or actual lightsaber training is enough to cover up a lack of training in the other one I think.

I think that's also why Rey did so well against Kylo in TFA (beside his injury) because she already showed that she had some combat skills with her staff. Kylo's lightsaber skills look like a mess because he's always just flailing around wildly.
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The EU has a ton of awesome stuff about lightsaber training and combat

It's all garbage nonsense in the movies though
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so Rey did get more than two lessons

Deleted scenes
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GranzonEx posted...

I look at it like this. Vader never hit his full potential after turning to the dark side. He lost to Obi Wan before he could fulfill his potential. But he was trained to wield both the Force and lightsabers before his defeat.

From the looks of this new trilogy and the OT, it looks like the art of lightsaber combat was lost during the Jedi purge. That's why Luke in the OT looked like he was just thrashing about with his lightsaber. That's why Kylo Ren looks like he's chopping wood with his lightsaber. Remember that lightsabers are basically weightless. There's really no need to swing those things around like they are baseball bats.

Kylo Ren would get destroyed by 100% Vader.

I mean, that all comes down to lightsaber technique, not strength in the Force.
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Wasn't Mace Windu like super lightsaber expert but not so much force expert?
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He was still really good in the Force, but yeah he was known for his lightsaber skills. The movies didn't portray that well at all.
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Where is Anagram's scathingly apathetic opinion? I'm not sure what to think yet
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Jeff Zero posted...

Where is Anagram's scathingly apathetic opinion? I'm not sure what to think yet

according to Harmonica RLM hasn't reviewed the movie so that's probably what he's waiting for
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LeonhartFour posted...

Jeff Zero posted...

Where is Anagram's scathingly apathetic opinion? I'm not sure what to think yet

according to Harmonica RLM hasn't reviewed the movie so that's probably what he's waiting for

Oh right true
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So I do have to give credit to the PT for the fact that the universe felt more alive with most of the planets being more earth like in their population. I can forgive the OT for the planets being fairly lifeless, but most of the planets in the NT have gone back to the OTs style of being lifeless, really makes the universe feel so much smaller.
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Jakku was good but every other planet feels like there's just 1 thing on it
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This is where the upcoming Star Wars live action show could excel. Well, this and other ways. Time to expand the universe.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Jeff Zero posted...

Where is Anagram's scathingly apathetic opinion? I'm not sure what to think yet

according to Harmonica RLM hasn't reviewed the movie so that's probably what he's waiting for

But they did????? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lCW-iaOZ_M&t=0s
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hey man I was just taking his word for it
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Wedge Antilles posted...

So I do have to give credit to the PT for the fact that the universe felt more alive with most of the planets being more earth like in their population. I can forgive the OT for the planets being fairly lifeless, but most of the planets in the NT have gone back to the OTs style of being lifeless, really makes the universe feel so much smaller.

Luke's tiny hermit rock island has like 3+ different forms of indigenous life we encounter!
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I thought the movie was incredibly good. I really enjoy fan reactions that are pissed about the force projection as 'a made up ability'. Everything about the force is fucking made up. This isn't some Name of the Wind shit where there is science between how and when magic is used. Were these fans also pissed Luke didn't mention midichlorians in his training?
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