Current Events > British Muslims feel held back and that Britain is an 'islamophobic' country.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Hexenherz, are you a Muslim by chance?
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Hexenherz posted...

They want to be in a country not held back to the dark ages. They want to be Muslim without the backwards horrible policies some Muslim nations have. Is that too much to ask for?

As I've already said, those horrible policies that some nations have come from their holy book.
If you don't follow that, you're not a true muslim. You can't change a religion 1500 years after it was founded.

Don't get me wrong, same goes for Christianity. Most of the stuff people believe and do today are complete nonsense.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Hexenherz, are you a Muslim by chance?

No, I'm not. In fact, I hate religion.

Hexenherz posted...

s0nicfan posted...

creativerealms posted...

Medz1206 posted...

Why dont they move to a county that is majority muslium?

They want to be in a country not held back to the dark ages. They want to be Muslim without the backwards horrible policies some Muslim nations have. Is that too much to ask for?

Yes, that's too much to ask. Islam has ruined every country it has taken a majority in. You don't get to ruin 52 countries and then demand to be given a permanent spot in a good one AND ALSO that they should respect the same set of beliefs that ruined their last homes.

This is highly subjective. Many Islam-majority nations were rather prosperous before third party interference via political subterfuge and war.

Ah yes, the "every shitty islamic country is only bad because of western imperialism" argument. That explains, what, 5 countries? 6? A dozen? Explain the other 40.
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s0nicfan posted...

Hexenherz posted...

s0nicfan posted...

creativerealms posted...

Medz1206 posted...

Why dont they move to a county that is majority muslium?

They want to be in a country not held back to the dark ages. They want to be Muslim without the backwards horrible policies some Muslim nations have. Is that too much to ask for?

Yes, that's too much to ask. Islam has ruined every country it has taken a majority in. You don't get to ruin 52 countries and then demand to be given a permanent spot in a good one AND ALSO that they should respect the same set of beliefs that ruined their last homes.

This is highly subjective. Many Islam-majority nations were rather prosperous before third party interference via political subterfuge and war.

Ah yes, the "every shitty islamic country is only bad because of western imperialism" argument. That explains, what, 5 countries? 6? A dozen? Explain the other 40.

I love how you try to add hyperbole to my posts when I'm intentionally avoiding generalizations, because generalizations are pointless.

Horus_Leftfield posted...

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

s0nicfan posted...

What ELSE do British Muslims feel? Let's find out!
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts

only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists.

23% of British Muslims said Islamic Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations.

52% of the Muslims surveyed said they believe homosexuality should be illegal

Nearly half believe it is unacceptable for a gay or lesbian to teach their children

almost a third (31%) of British Muslims think polygamy should be legalized

Among 18-to-24-year-olds, 35% think it is acceptable to have more than one wife.

Thirty-nine percent of Muslims surveyed believe women should always obey their husbands

One in three British Muslims refuse completely to condemn the stoning of women accused of adultery.

35% believe Jewish people have too much power in the UK

But don't worry, when they become the majority they'll totally uphold western civilization.

#sarcasm

Regressives like you are da fucking worst. And you and @Gavirulax actually tried to say "It's not Muslims I have a problem with it's Islam" in the other topic.

Fucking rofl!! XD

Me and Gavi are regressive because we don't like a regressive ideology like Islam that we ACTUALLY LIVED THROUGH!!?

Lol
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If conservatives don't like secular governments why not leave?

Hexenherz posted...

I love how you try to add hyperbole to my posts when I'm intentionally avoiding generalizations, because generalizations are pointless.

I know you're trying to avoid generalizations. You are correct that many of them are war-torn. However, you are ultimately still providing excuses to defend the religion. 52 is a large number of nations, and the fact that all of them are either human rights nightmares or 3rd world hellholes isn't a coincidence. Too many people will take what happened in Iraq or Syria, use that as a template for the entirety of the muslim world, and then claim that's why muslim countries are doing so poorly. Maybe you're not doing that, but I've seen that argument many times before, and it doesn't hold up.
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Horus_Leftfield posted...

Does it feel good to shit on a minority tc

So two billion followers are a minority now?
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I'm not defending the religion at all. I'm trying to defend the people that are experiencing prejudice in countries that are half-assedly accepting them without having had a contingency plan in place.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

If conservatives don't like secular governments why not leave?

You can't just kick out native born citizens or expect them to leave their country. You also have to fight against BAD ideas that are native to your country.

What you CAN do is keep out bad foreign ideas and violence.
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CarlGrimes posted...

Horus_Leftfield posted...

Does it feel good to shit on a minority tc

So two billion followers are a minority now?

wat

Hexenherz posted...

I love how you try to add hyperbole to my posts when I'm intentionally avoiding generalizations, because generalizations are pointless.

We live in a globalized community now, if your country sucks, it's because of current* terrible leadership/population unwilling to modernize (in every sense of the word) with the rest of the world. There is no reason Iran shouldn't be able rise above the past, much like Japan or S.Korea.
The only thing holding Iran back is Islam.
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Japan and South Korea have had extremely strong relations with extremely strong nations in almost every sphere possible. Other countries have not enjoyed such partnerships. It's, again, an entirely false equivalence.
And in the context of entire countries, I would not blame a religious group for whatever situation they're in - religion there is a means to a goal, not the goal itself.

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

You can't just kick out native born citizens or expect them to leave their country.

Unless they're Muslim though right?

Hexenherz posted...

This is highly subjective. Many Islam-majority nations were rather prosperous before third party interference via political subterfuge and war.

That's definitely the case in a few of them, but that doesn't account for the vast majority. The Arab-Islamic world before the 11th century was incredibly prosperous and actually led the world in technology, mathematics, scientific achievements, architecture, and even art. Their civilization outperformed every country in Europe. And then that all died.

Why? Well, not because of Western imperialism or "Islamophobia" or anything of that sort. Not even because of the crusades or anything the Christians did. It died because the Arab world took a hard right turn towards religious fundamentalism and killed off its great Islamic minds and progressive thinkers. The philosophy of Islam shifted from a desire to understand the world to a desire to understand God. This pivot essentially plunged that region of the world into a 900-year Dark Age that they're still in. You can be as big of a bleeding heart apologist as you want, but you absolutely cannot hand wave the way the religion has devastated that entire part of the world.
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s0nicfan posted...

Funkdamental posted...

Here's part of the problem. Islam gives an impression that the faith has dangerous weak spots of interpretation. That there are suras and hadiths that can be all too easily twisted to convince the susceptible and those attracted to radical, violent solutions that there is scriptural justification -- even a mandate -- for terrible atrocities. Many non-Muslims refuse to believe that it's possible for someone to be %u2018radicalized%u2019 into doing something that's genuinely profoundly contradictory to their personality and beliefs. Instead, they suspect that cultural conditioning %u2013 and by that, I mean the role of Islam in someone%u2019s upbringing -- has a lot to do with the softening-up process and makes indoctrination easy.

That's the challenge Islam faces in the West: to explain that modern salafists are basing their interpretations on distortions of the texts, and not drawing correct and inescapable conclusions from a crystal-clear message. To convince non-Muslims that there is nothing in genuine Islamic belief that could be misused in such a way. If that isn't possible, if it isn't clearly communicated, I fear there's going to continue to be a profound mistrust about what Muslims actually believe.

This is a bullshit non-argument. You hand wave away EVERY extremist action with "well they're just not interpreting the book right"

Nope, because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that's the struggle Islam faces: to convince non-believers that the salafists are the ones who are getting it wrong. If Muslims in the West can't win that struggle -- either because they're not making the argument clearly and loudly enough, or because the struggle is fundamentally unwinnable because there's no such argument to be made -- then Muslims here will always be regarded with distrust.
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Hexenherz posted...

I'm not defending the religion at all. I'm trying to defend the people that are experiencing prejudice in countries that are half-assedly accepting them without having had a contingency plan in place.

Maybe it's not that their half-assedly accepting them, and more that they're half-assedly integrating into society. You saw the statistics I posted... in most cases those percentages are 3 to 5 times larger than that of native British.

Over 50% of muslims want to ban homosexuality. Only 22% of non-muslims do. In the US, if you put a bunch of orthodox christians in a town that openly accepts gays... you're going to see some friction there, too.

It's not that "they hate us because we're Muslims". It's "our extremely conservative views on social issues, combined with the fact that we rarely socialize with non-muslims (see below), has made us social outcasts"

The poll also found that a fifth of British Muslims have not entered the home of a non-Muslim in the past year.

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I don't even understand the relevancy of that last statistic; there are a million reasons why 20% of a certain group would not have entered the home of a different demographic.

I always laugh when Muslims complain about intolerance in western countries, when Muslim majority countries are the most intolerant in the world and they don't do shit about it. They have no interest in fighting for the rights of others, but expect others to fight for theirs.

Hexenherz posted...

I don't even understand the relevancy of that last statistic; there are a million reasons why 20% of a certain group would not have entered the home of a different demographic.

The relevancy, and I could find other polls that provide a better view on the issue, is that Muslims tend to only socialize with muslims. They form community within countries and isolate themselves. If you do that, it is going to have a negative impact on your ability to find work, because forming social connections and fitting in with your co-workers is one of the best ways to get and hold a job. The guy who gets along with everyone gets the promotion. The guy who doesn't won't. It's an issue of integration, although you're correct in that the 20% by itself is probably not the most compelling statistic to show it.
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The Admiral posted...

Well, not because of Western imperialism or "Islamophobia" or anything of that sort. Not even because of the crusades or anything the Christians did. It died because the Arab world took a hard right turn towards religious fundamentalism and killed off its great Islamic minds and progressive thinkers. The philosophy of Islam shifted from a desire to understand the world to a desire to understand God. This pivot essentially plunged that region of the world into a 900-year Dark Age that they're still in. You can be as big of a bleeding heart apologist as you want, but you absolutely cannot hand wave the way the religion has devastated that entire part of the world.

It's actually because of the industrial revolution. China and India also regressed relative to Europe in the same time period but I guess that doesn't fit your Islam narrative.

Hexenherz posted...

I don't even understand the relevancy of that last statistic; there are a million reasons why 20% of a certain group would not have entered the home of a different demographic.

Keep making excuses for self imposed social isolation.
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

The Admiral posted...

Well, not because of Western imperialism or "Islamophobia" or anything of that sort. Not even because of the crusades or anything the Christians did. It died because the Arab world took a hard right turn towards religious fundamentalism and killed off its great Islamic minds and progressive thinkers. The philosophy of Islam shifted from a desire to understand the world to a desire to understand God. This pivot essentially plunged that region of the world into a 900-year Dark Age that they're still in. You can be as big of a bleeding heart apologist as you want, but you absolutely cannot hand wave the way the religion has devastated that entire part of the world.

It's actually because of the industrial revolution. China and India also regressed relative to Europe in the same time period but I guess that doesn't fit your Islam narrative.

The industrial revolution was in the early 1800s. The "Golden age of Islam" ended around 1300AD.
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s0nicfan posted...

The industrial revolution was in the early 1800s. The "Golden age of Islam" ended around 1300AD

The Admiral posted...

Their civilization outperformed every country in Europe. And then that all died.

That didn't happen until the industrial revolution.

Funkdamental posted...

GunmaN1905 posted...

Btw, what's with the liberals supporting muslims?
Islam literally goes against every liberal idea.

I strongly dislike Islam because -- in common with other irrational belief systems that seek to control people with myths, fairy tales and superstitions ultimately backed by the threat of heavenly (or earthly) punishment for dissenters -- it's an ideology that fits into the liberal secular humanistic society that I believe in about as well as a square peg in a round hole.

But that doesn't mean you can't separate the human rights and civil liberties of the holders of a belief from criticism of the belief itself. (No ideology is, or should be, immune from criticism.) There's no contradiction between being willing to criticize Islam as a flawed ideology and being willing to defend Muslims from injustice or violence -- any more than there's a contradiction between pointing out that Scientology is a fraud and insisting that Scientologists are entitled to constitutional rights.

However, liberals should also fight tooth and nail against giving sharia law an inch of extra space.

This is how I feel. I dislike islam but I don't dislike muslims. I will not defend the religion, but I will defend the rights of the individuals who follow that religion. That doesn't mean I'm going to accept any sort of religious law from any religion
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

s0nicfan posted...

The industrial revolution was in the early 1800s. The "Golden age of Islam" ended around 1300AD

The Admiral posted...

Their civilization outperformed every country in Europe. And then that all died.

That didn't happen until the industrial revolution.

Except his main point was this:

The philosophy of Islam shifted from a desire to understand the world to a desire to understand God.

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Right, and his main point was wrong.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

Right, and his main point was wrong.

A compelling argument.
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

You can't just kick out native born citizens or expect them to leave their country.

Unless they're Muslim though right?

Nope. Don't kick them out but keep more from coming in.
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Medz1206 posted...

Why dont they move to a county that is majority muslium?

No idea! ??
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Medz1206 posted...

Why dont they move to a county that is majority muslium?

because they cant get free heatlh care and free money in those countries and as much as they bitch they like the freedom of western society
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

Right, and his main point was wrong.

Are deliberately disregarding linear time again? The industrial revolution was 500 years after the Arab-Islamic world plummeted into the dark ages due to embracing religious fundamentalism. That period was a pivotal shift in the way Islam was practiced that crippled the region, from which it has never recovered. Falling behind the rest of the world even further during the industrial revolution and colonial period certainly didn't help a bad situation, but it wasn't the cause.
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NINExATExSEVEN posted...

Horus_Leftfield posted...

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

s0nicfan posted...

What ELSE do British Muslims feel? Let's find out!
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts

only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists.

23% of British Muslims said Islamic Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations.

52% of the Muslims surveyed said they believe homosexuality should be illegal

Nearly half believe it is unacceptable for a gay or lesbian to teach their children

almost a third (31%) of British Muslims think polygamy should be legalized

Among 18-to-24-year-olds, 35% think it is acceptable to have more than one wife.

Thirty-nine percent of Muslims surveyed believe women should always obey their husbands

One in three British Muslims refuse completely to condemn the stoning of women accused of adultery.

35% believe Jewish people have too much power in the UK

But don't worry, when they become the majority they'll totally uphold western civilization.

#sarcasm

Regressives like you are da fucking worst. And you and @Gavirulax actually tried to say "It's not Muslims I have a problem with it's Islam" in the other topic.

Fucking rofl!! XD

Me and Gavi are regressive because we don't like a regressive ideology like Islam that we ACTUALLY LIVED THROUGH!!?

Lol

Yeah You're regressive because you carry hatred and bigotry towards other people on account of their religion, a billion of whom don't even hold the same backwards political opinions you attribute to all of them. That makes you regressive.
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Notice how the very first picture in the article with the girls in school, notice how that says it's a faith school right below the picture?

That right there is a huge part of the problem. The Muslim community is self-segregating itself away from the rest of UK society, it seems. Obviously there are going to be exceptions, and I'm certainly no expert on this, but it seems like that is part of the problem. When you're living in Muslim neighborhoods, going to Muslim schools, Muslim businesses, etc., it's no surprise that you don't end up integrating with the rest of society.

Faith schools? Sounds like a terrible idea.
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The thing is there's Jewish schools and Catholic schools and whatnot as well, at least in the US (not sure in the UK)

I would agree that it's better to just not have faith schools in general, but then you need to do it to all religious groups
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The Admiral posted...

Are deliberately disregarding linear time again? The industrial revolution was 500 years after the Arab-Islamic world plummeted into the dark ages due to embracing religious fundamentalism.

s0nicfan posted...

A compelling argument.

You know how conservatives are always asking why anyone would need an education? This is why.

The end of the Islamic golden age has nothing to do with some non-existent turn against science. It was brought on by the Mongol invasions, the sack of Baghdad and the destruction of the House of Wisdom. Science, literature, architecture, etc all flourished under Ottoman rule for hundreds of years.

The middle-east did not decline relative to Europe until the industrial revolution where everyone declined relative to Europe.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

The Admiral posted...

Are deliberately disregarding linear time again? The industrial revolution was 500 years after the Arab-Islamic world plummeted into the dark ages due to embracing religious fundamentalism.

s0nicfan posted...

A compelling argument.

You know how conservatives are always asking why anyone would need an education? This is why.

The end of the Islamic golden age has nothing to do with some non-existent turn against science. It was brought on by the Mongol invasions, the sack of Baghdad and the destruction of the House of Wisdom. Science, literature, architecture, etc all flourished under Ottoman rule for hundreds of years.

The middle-east did not decline relative to Europe until the industrial revolution where everyone declined relative to Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey#Ottoman_Empire
Ottoman rule also led to multiple genocides. Is it cool if we accept Nazis because they kept the trains running on-time? Because that's the argument you're making.
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NINExATExSEVEN posted...

Broseph_Stalin posted...

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

You can't just kick out native born citizens or expect them to leave their country.

Unless they're Muslim though right?

Nope. Don't kick them out but keep more from coming in.

More innocent people have died on boats in the Mediterranean trying to flee war zones than have died thanks to ISIS terror attacks in Europe. With how regressive you are you probably don't care though. Letting someone die isn't any different than killing them.
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Horus_Leftfield posted...

More innocent people have died on boats in the Mediterranean trying to flee war zones than have died thanks to ISIS terror attacks in Europe. With how regressive you are you probably don't care though. Letting someone die isn't any different than killing them.

Then blame Merkel for opening the floodgates in the first place without considering or consulting with the countries that lacked the GDP or general ability to take in hundreds of thousands of uneducated non-speaking young male foreigners.
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s0nicfan posted...

Ottoman rule also led to multiple genocides.

After the decline of the empire. During the industrial revolution. You can get this man you just have to try.

s0nicfan posted...

Broseph_Stalin posted...

The Admiral posted...

Are deliberately disregarding linear time again? The industrial revolution was 500 years after the Arab-Islamic world plummeted into the dark ages due to embracing religious fundamentalism.

s0nicfan posted...

A compelling argument.

You know how conservatives are always asking why anyone would need an education? This is why.

The end of the Islamic golden age has nothing to do with some non-existent turn against science. It was brought on by the Mongol invasions, the sack of Baghdad and the destruction of the House of Wisdom. Science, literature, architecture, etc all flourished under Ottoman rule for hundreds of years.

The middle-east did not decline relative to Europe until the industrial revolution where everyone declined relative to Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey#Ottoman_Empire
Ottoman rule also led to multiple genocides. Is it cool if we accept Nazis because they kept the trains running on-time? Because that's the argument you're making.

The ottoman empire fucked up my county. I don't even know what it was like before Islamic influence.

Side note. Is everybody just ignoring how western leaders are saying that terrorist attacks are now a part of life in western Europe? Western Europe. A first world country, has terrorist attacks as the norm now.

What's your excuse progressives?
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Ottoman rule also led to multiple genocides.

After the decline of the empire. During the industrial revolution. You can get this man you just have to try.

Yea, yea. If I just squint hard enough I'll suddenly see that every awful thing ever done in the name of Islam is due to western interference, and if I just opened my heart and my country to Islam it would flourish like never before.
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s0nicfan posted...

Yea, yea. If I just squint hard enough I'll suddenly see that every awful thing ever done in the name of Islam is due to western interference

This is a strawman. You're also trying to start new arguments when you lose the previous one.

The original point Admiral made about a "decline" in the Muslim world was completely wrong. Accept it and move on, history isn't always going to your confirm your political views.

"We hate you because of others you've never even met" will never be a good argument

NINExATExSEVEN posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Broseph_Stalin posted...

The Admiral posted...

Are deliberately disregarding linear time again? The industrial revolution was 500 years after the Arab-Islamic world plummeted into the dark ages due to embracing religious fundamentalism.

s0nicfan posted...

A compelling argument.

You know how conservatives are always asking why anyone would need an education? This is why.

The end of the Islamic golden age has nothing to do with some non-existent turn against science. It was brought on by the Mongol invasions, the sack of Baghdad and the destruction of the House of Wisdom. Science, literature, architecture, etc all flourished under Ottoman rule for hundreds of years.

The middle-east did not decline relative to Europe until the industrial revolution where everyone declined relative to Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey#Ottoman_Empire
Ottoman rule also led to multiple genocides. Is it cool if we accept Nazis because they kept the trains running on-time? Because that's the argument you're making.

The ottoman empire fucked up my county. I don't even know what it was like before Islamic influence.

Side note. Is everybody just ignoring how western leaders are saying that terrorist attacks are now a part of life in western Europe? Western Europe. A first world country, has terrorist attacks as the norm now.

What's your excuse progressives?

USA should have done military intervention in syria.
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Yea, yea. If I just squint hard enough I'll suddenly see that every awful thing ever done in the name of Islam is due to western interference

This is a strawman. You're also trying to start new arguments when you lose the previous one.

The original point Admiral made about a "decline" in the Muslim world was completely wrong. Accept it and move on, history isn't always going to your confirm your political views.

Fine, the decline of the ottoman empire was not entirely due to a conservative shift in Islam but also due to other world factors. You were right. That doesn't change a single thing about Islam being awful. It's still owner of by far the most genocides. It's still dominant in 52 countries, all of which are bad. It's still producing "moderate" followers that believe far more socially conservative ideas than everyone around them. It's still not integrating into western societies. It still produces nothing of value in STEM and hasn't for hundreds of years. It is a cancer that ruins people and societies that is extremely resistance to reform, built on a 1400 year old book "written" by a warlord pedophile and filled with horrible things, made somehow even worse by the Hadith. The very best thing the world can hope for is the Islam implodes and the religion fades into history like every other bad ideology.
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Yea, yea. If I just squint hard enough I'll suddenly see that every awful thing ever done in the name of Islam is due to western interference

This is a strawman. You're also trying to start new arguments when you lose the previous one.

The original point Admiral made about a "decline" in the Muslim world was completely wrong. Accept it and move on, history isn't always going to your confirm your political views.

The Muslim world is in decline generally speaking in terms of science, technology and progressive values.

Look at Indonesia for example. See how it's regressing into a virulent dogmatic society that punishes people for living life outside 'islamic norms'.

Look at Iran and Saudi Arabia. See how women are treated and made to feel like little more than chattel.

It's clearly obvious why there is a disconnect between people who grow up within a country that espouse liberal progressive attitudes, and those from a Islamic culture who cry foul when they feel alienated.
Of course they feel alienated.
A lot of what they do, is alien to us.
And frankly, why should we bend over to accommodate it/them?
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jeez it couldnt possibly have to do with the people murdered by islamic terrorists

s0nicfan posted...

That doesn't change a single thing about Islam being awful. It's still owner of by far the most genocides.

Not even close to being true.

s0nicfan posted...

It's still not integrating into western societies.

Also not true. Hint: "Muslim becomes a doctor, enjoys watching football on weekends" doesn't make headlines.

You believed bad history because it backed your narrative, time to maybe realize you aren't always thinking logically.