Poll of the Day > I just got Tales of Graces f (spoilers no welcome past where I am)

(+) Yeah! (+)

SO I just got the airship and they made it seem like there's stuff hiding around the world map if I look for it.

Anywhere I should go?
---

Shit! The Shuttle Crash Site boss wiped my whole party after I went and collected all the swimsuits AND beat both bosses at Lambda's Cocoon.

Ugh. That's why I need to learn to save more often.
---

darkknight109 posted...

In the West, this resolution is deeply unsatisfying, because a parent who discards their child's love in favour of pushing them to financial, academic, and/or social success is a bad parent (indeed, Western culture would say he has missed the whole point of being a parent in the first place); in Japan, the character often has a tragic air to them, because they gave up everything - even the love of their children - in order to ensure their child's success. Not only would they be considered a good parent, they'd be considered a great one for sacrificing so much for the sake of their child.

I would argue that it isnt a sacrifice. Its a failure to identify what their children really wanted. That trope is just some garbage to justify bad parenting. The child being successful is only the best case scenario. In most cases the child might not be successful at all or on in the worst case commits suicide. In the former the child and parent are now estranged with nothing to show for it. And in the latter how great of a parent are they now when the pressure they put on their child for their sake was too much for them to handle?
---

PK_Spam posted...

Shit! The Shuttle Crash Site boss wiped my whole party after I went and collected all the swimsuits AND beat both bosses at Lambda's Cocoon.

Ugh. That's why I need to learn to save more often.

This exact thing happened to me at this point in the game. I feel your pain.

chaosbowser posted...

darkknight109 posted...

In the West, this resolution is deeply unsatisfying, because a parent who discards their child's love in favour of pushing them to financial, academic, and/or social success is a bad parent (indeed, Western culture would say he has missed the whole point of being a parent in the first place); in Japan, the character often has a tragic air to them, because they gave up everything - even the love of their children - in order to ensure their child's success. Not only would they be considered a good parent, they'd be considered a great one for sacrificing so much for the sake of their child.

I would argue that it isnt a sacrifice. Its a failure to identify what their children really wanted. That trope is just some garbage to justify bad parenting. The child being successful is only the best case scenario. In most cases the child might not be successful at all or on in the worst case commits suicide. In the former the child and parent are now estranged with nothing to show for it. And in the latter how great of a parent are they now when the pressure they put on their child for their sake was too much for them to handle?

This is a pretty common Western reaction to this trope, and not necessarily a wrong reading of it, but it's not one that most Japanese would take. Even if the child did succeed, the important part isn't the end result, it's the motivation - this is the Japanese version of tough love, or being cruel to be kind. The parent wants the child to succeed and pushes them extremely hard to do so; even if the child doesn't excel, the parent did what they did out of love and a desire to secure the best possible future for their offspring, even at the cost of giving up the possibility of being loved and admired by their child.

Again, I'm not defending this sort of parenting (in my view, I completely agree that it's shitty parenting and kids shouldn't be raised that way), just explaining why the game takes the tone it does towards Aston and his relationship with his sons.
---

Yeah but japan in many ways shafts itself with its cultural views. You can see the way their views plague their society from high suicide rates, hikikomori, deflation, and even their businesses suffer from their particular cultural values.
---

chaosbowser posted...

Yeah but japan in many ways shafts itself with its cultural views. You can see the way their views plague their society from high suicide rates, hikikomori, deflation, and even their businesses suffer from their particular cultural values.

That's one way of looking at it. The flipside of that, however, is that Japan has extremely low crime rates, particularly violent crime (in some cases you are literally over 1,000,000 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime - depending on the crime in question - in America compared to Japan), has an extremely advanced economy (3rd largest in the world, despite having the 11th highest population), and enjoys the longest life expectancy in the world.

Every culture has their virtues and vices - culture goes a long way to determining what your society is good at and where it fails. If you asked the Japanese about Western values, they would probably comment negatively on rudeness/a lack of respect, rampant violent crime, significant inequality, and a generally selfish nature.

I don't agree that one is necessarily better than the other (though in individual areas, that can absolutely be argued to be the case); they are simply different.
---

darkknight109 posted...

The parent wants the child to succeed and pushes them extremely hard to do so; even if the child doesn't excel, the parent did what they did out of love and a desire to secure the best possible future for their offspring, even at the cost of giving up the possibility of being loved and admired by their child.

Result: Japan has a negative birth rate, among a wide variety of other social problems that others have observed.
---

darkknight109 posted...

chaosbowser posted...

Yeah but japan in many ways shafts itself with its cultural views. You can see the way their views plague their society from high suicide rates, hikikomori, deflation, and even their businesses suffer from their particular cultural values.

That's one way of looking at it. The flipside of that, however, is that Japan has extremely low crime rates, particularly violent crime (in some cases you are literally over 1,000,000 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime - depending on the crime in question - in America compared to Japan), has an extremely advanced economy (3rd largest in the world, despite having the 11th highest population), and enjoys the longest life expectancy in the world.

Every culture has their virtues and vices - culture goes a long way to determining what your society is good at and where it fails. If you asked the Japanese about Western values, they would probably comment negatively on rudeness/a lack of respect, rampant violent crime, significant inequality, and a generally selfish nature.

I don't agree that one is necessarily better than the other (though in individual areas, that can absolutely be argued to be the case); they are simply different.

I would snort at the significant inequality. Japanese culture has overt racism and gender values reminiscent of 1950s america.

While their values did get them to where they are now somehow. Its currently plaguing them. Their economy and population is shrinking. Japanese men aren't defaulting to waifus because they have such a great culture. At the very least Americans have the decency to acknowledge our rampant violent crime needs to be addressed in some way while the Japanese still attempt to give themselves a masturbatory pat on the back about how great their shit parents are.
---

I_Abibde posted...

darkknight109 posted...

The parent wants the child to succeed and pushes them extremely hard to do so; even if the child doesn't excel, the parent did what they did out of love and a desire to secure the best possible future for their offspring, even at the cost of giving up the possibility of being loved and admired by their child.

Result: Japan has a negative birth rate, among a wide variety of other social problems that others have observed.

Pretty much all first world nations - including the US - have a negative birth rate. Most of them make up the difference in immigration, as native born fertility rates are low. Japan's big issue is that they have one of the strictest immigration policies in the world and, as a result, have almost no immigration so they don't even have that result.

So no, I wouldn't tie Japan's low birth rate to their parenting trends - that's more a byproduct of prosperity.

Also, bit of advice: don't take a fantasy trope (which this is) and assume that's how things work in real life. Few parents in Japan actually parent this way. This is meant as a storytelling device, nothing more.

chaosbowser posted...

I would snort at the significant inequality. Japanese culture has overt racism and gender values reminiscent of 1950s america.

The Japanese would argue that America has that same overt racism. The gender disparity is definitely a thing, but Japan is slowly improving on that front.

chaosbowser posted...

Their economy and population is shrinking. Japanese men aren't defaulting to waifus because they have such a great culture.

The white population in America is shrinking too. Across all ethnic groups, were it not for immigration, the US would be in the same vote as Japan.

So I guess you're saying American culture sucks?

chaosbowser posted...

At the very least Americans have the decency to acknowledge our rampant violent crime needs to be addressed in some way while the Japanese still attempt to give themselves a masturbatory pat on the back about how great their shit parents are.

Like Abide, you're treating a fantasy trope as if it's reality (and widespread reality at that). Hospitals don't work like Scrubs or House, the legal system doesn't function at all like Law and Order, so be very cautious about assuming that a trope from a fantasy-based JRPG actually at all reflects reality (because in this case you would be wrong).

As in the US, most parents in Japan deeply love their children and show it. Are there parents who ascribe to "Tiger Mom" philosophy of pushing their children to near-breaking point in some twisted desire to drive their children to succeed at all costs? Sure... but those people exist in the US, too.
---

Looking back, I was actually a little intimidated by the Nova monsters at the beginning of the game. But now that I'm at the final dungeon, all they do is remind me to use the weakness system when they get all glowy.
---

PK_Spam posted...

Looking back, I was actually a little intimidated by the Nova monsters at the beginning of the game. But now that I'm at the final dungeon, all they do is remind me to use the weakness system when they get all glowy.

Yeah the Nova bit felt a little shoehorned at the beginning, I was like "wow the fuck, I have to use a specific arte any time I want to damage a monster?" but it turned out there are plenty of Nova artes AND there aren't that many Nova encounters.

I just bought Xillia 2, gonna start it tonight.
---

Muffinz0rz posted...

PK_Spam posted...

Looking back, I was actually a little intimidated by the Nova monsters at the beginning of the game. But now that I'm at the final dungeon, all they do is remind me to use the weakness system when they get all glowy.

Yeah the Nova bit felt a little shoehorned at the beginning, I was like "wow the fuck, I have to use a specific arte any time I want to damage a monster?" but it turned out there are plenty of Nova artes AND there aren't that many Nova encounters.

I just bought Xillia 2, gonna start it tonight.

Just a tip for that game.

Make sure you have the right abilities and artes for guard breaking and power combos. There's one boss who comes at you before you have a lot at your disposal, and he WILL catch you by surprise and ram your ass into the ground. Even on easy.
---

I have my whole family trying to work out the final Pascal Ice Block minigame
---

I got fed up with that puzzle and made random moves and somehow solved it. I can only take hearing Pascal's theme for so long before being driven mad.

I figured it out!
---

...That puzzle was easy. o_O
---

I came to this post not caring about spoilers...or the game...because it's clearly another weeb Tales game with a juvenile and quite brain dead anime style plot held together by nothing, lacking logic or anything that makes a story actually interesting...and probably written by a high school or college kid who thinks he's created some deep message about hope/love/friendship or any combination therein.
---

Eh, I play it for the cute girls and the strong characterization. Tales games are good at that by virtue of the fact that half of the voice acting is for skits, which help... personalize, each character as something other than necessary driving forces for the plot.
---

DrYuya posted...

I came to this post not caring about spoilers...or the game...because it's clearly another weeb Tales game with a juvenile and quite brain dead anime style plot held together by nothing, lacking logic or anything that makes a story actually interesting...and probably written by a high school or college kid who thinks he's created some deep message about hope/love/friendship or any combination therein.

---

darkknight109 posted...

The Japanese would argue that America has that same overt racism

They'd be wrong? Things like Japanese bars (not actually limited to bars) that only admit Japanese people are Jim crow tier while most US racial inequality involves more subtle individual instances of racism (which are significantly more difficult to catch) rather than a racist practice approved by the public. The KKK may exist in america but they do not represent America as it is today in any shape way or form.

darkknight109 posted...

The white population in America is shrinking too. Across all ethnic groups, were it not for immigration, the US would be in the same vote as Japan.

So I guess you're saying American culture sucks

You fail to realize that part of our culture is about welcoming immigrants and that's why despite our white population shrinking we continue to prosper. so no i'm saying american culture is great. Also, white people aren't the only americans you racist.

Meanwhile, Japan's racism/xenophobia is negatively impacting their economy because they do not want a large immigrant population. On top of that they're having difficulty tapping into half their potential work force because of their shit gender values. Their shrinking economy is entirely the fault of their culture. There are solutions to their shrinking economy but they are held back by their values.
---

chaosbowser posted...

Things like Japanese bars (not actually limited to bars) that only admit Japanese people are Jim crow tier

Source on this? Because I've never encountered this on any of my visits to Japan and the only source I could find online (http://www.debito.org/misawaexclusions.html) is now 15 years old, was about a single bar, and ended with the sign in question being taken down voluntarily after the article-writer asked the bar owner about it (and it was less about racism and more about the bar owner being unable to communicate in English to drunken GIs that were coming in from the nearby airforce base - which, I can tell you having spent plenty of time in Okinawa, is a significant irritant to the locals).

Also, the "equality" I referenced wasn't purely racial in nature, although the fact you assumed that's what I was talking about says quite a bit on its own.

chaosbowser posted...

The KKK may exist in america but they do not represent America as it is today in any shape way or form.

I find it amusing how you say this, then act like a practice which is not widespread in Japan somehow is representative of all of Japanese culture.

chaosbowser posted...

You fail to realize that part of our culture is about welcoming immigrants and that's why despite our white population shrinking we continue to prosper.

You misunderstand - I didn't say the white population was shrinking *proportionally* (as in, whites now make up a lower percentage of the population than they used to); I said that the white population was shrinking period. As in, if you count up the raw numbers, there are fewer white people in the country today than their used to be with no signs of that changing anytime soon.

chaosbowser posted...

Also, white people aren't the only americans you racist.

Never said they were. Read the post you just quoted again, specifically the part that says "across all ethnic groups".

chaosbowser posted...

Their shrinking economy is entirely the fault of their culture.

Strange, then, how in the 80s and 90s - back when their culture was far more conservative around these issues - their economy was booming and was amongst the hottest on the planet.

It's ridiculously oversimplistic to say that Japan's entire economic situation is because of one facet of their culture. That would be like me saying "America's economy crashed in 2008 because they have legal guns and keep shooting all their workers."
---

PK_Spam posted...

I have my whole family trying to work out the final Pascal Ice Block minigame

Entity13 posted...

...That puzzle was easy. o_O

I'd hate to see him play Alundra. The only difficult part of Graces is staying sane enough to see it through to the end.

I miss having actual puzzles in Tales games

I've always like Sliding block puzzles since Pokemon GSC Ice Cave
---

MechaKirby posted...

I miss having actual puzzles in Tales games

I've always like Sliding block puzzles since Pokemon GSC Ice Cave

This would have you retracting that statement
---

Muffinz0rz posted...

Oh god, that was the worst.
---

<_< I actually liked that one. Last time I did those series of puzzles, I breezed through em

It's much better when the camera is positioned that way to show the whole field , so you can visualize the path as you go
---

Yeah I enjoyed the sliding puzzles in Symphonia. The only things I hated were the gorge with the wind flowers and the Temple of Darkness.

Temple of Darkness was essentially the RPG version of Sonic 3's Barrel of Doom.

Also Ymir Forest with it's cutscenes of fish, birds and boars was dumb
---

MechaKirby posted...

Temple of Darkness was essentially the RPG version of Sonic 3's Barrel of Doom.

What was wrong with it? The only thing I remember is having to be careful when guiding those shadow-things back to where they needed to go because they had dumb pathing AI.

MechaKirby posted...

Also **** ****** with it's cutscenes of fish, birds and boars was dumb

We do not speak the name of that wretched place here.
---

EclairReturns posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

Oh god, that was the worst.

I've seen worse, in terms of sliding puzzles.

Also, that's nowhere near the worst thing in Symphonia. *Glares at the minigame on the Tethe'alla bridge... again*
---

Entity13 posted...

minigame on the Tethe'alla bridge

Isn't that optional?
---

EclairReturns posted...

Entity13 posted...

minigame on the Tethe'alla bridge

Isn't that optional?

Yeah at least that's optional, but I get what you're talking about
---

It's 100% optional, unless you want the platinum trophy on the ps3 version. Then you must complete it at least once after the final door of the last dungeon has been opened.

I didn't put too much effort into that Platinum until after a few hours straight of trying to beat that damn mini-game. Never again...
---

darkknight109 posted...

Source on this?

Article from this year. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/06/04/national/tackling-signs-japan-youre-not-welcome/

Also the fact that its permissible is the problem not that someone put up the sign and took it down. That would never fly here. Their racial ignorance is so deep they're not even aware they're being racist. Not to mention this isn't as bad as all the hate speech that has been going around the past few years against koreans. It was only recently that they passed a hate speech bill because it was escalating so much.

darkknight109 posted...

I find it amusing how you say this, then act like a practice which is not widespread in Japan somehow is representative of all of Japanese culture.

The fact that its permissible is the egregious bit. It says a lot about a country when someone can do something so overtly racist and receive little to no backlash for it. What i find amusing is your inability to realize the problem. darkknight109 posted...

Also, the "equality" I referenced wasn't purely racial in nature, although the fact you assumed that's what I was talking about says quite a bit on its own.

It says that in America at least inequality is largely racial? Sure inequality exists among white individuals but its not quite as bad as what you see comparing it between races.

darkknight109 posted...

You misunderstand - I didn't say the white population was shrinking *proportionally* (as in, whites now make up a lower percentage of the population than they used to); I said that the white population was shrinking period. As in, if you count up the raw numbers, there are fewer white people in the country today than their used to be with no signs of that changing anytime soon.

That...wasn't really my point.It is irrelevant which color population is shrinking. My point was that our population continues to grow because we have a strong immigrant population which we encourage where as japan does not and entirely of their own choice. Japan's deflation is totally amenable.

darkknight109 posted...

trange, then, how in the 80s and 90s - back when their culture was far more conservative around these issues - their economy was booming and was amongst the hottest on the planet.

It's ridiculously oversimplistic to say that Japan's entire economic situation is because of one facet of their culture. That would be like me saying "America's economy crashed in 2008 because they have legal guns and keep shooting all their workers."

No their economic situation is not due to one facet of their culture its due to myriad of facets of their culture since i mentioned two different ones in this discussion with you alone. Gender values and Xenophobia are different things altogether. However the fact of the matter remains they've more or less dug their own hole.
---

Enough about suicide.

I've been trying to do as much as I can before I go further down the final dungeon. I've gotten as far as the Dullahan boss before turning back and doing side quests. But I guess it's time to go back and do the stuff I have to do I can fix Aston's Sword.

Hopefully I can get that weapon for Asbel by tonight. Are there any other "final" weapons I should get for everyone? I have half the joke weapons already, and I imagine I'll get the other half later.
---

chaosbowser posted...

Also the fact that its permissible is the problem not that someone put up the sign and took it down. That would never fly here.

You say that, but right now there's a case before the US Supreme Court about businesses being allowed to deny services to gay people.

chaosbowser posted...

Their racial ignorance is so deep they're not even aware they're being racist.

To be fair, the situation is a little different in Japan than it is here. The US - dating back to its founding days, thanks to both immigration from various parts of the world and forced slavery, has always been a nation with substantial racial mix. By contrast, Japan is one of the most ethnically homogenous in the world, with over 97% of Japanese citizens being ethnic Japanese. The "Japanese Only" signs, from what I can gather, seem to be less a hateful call for racial purity (as such actions tend to be here) and more a way of saying "No tourists". Tourists in Japan have a reputation for being loud, ignorant, inconsiderate, and rude and it's a reputation that isn't undeserved in my experience. Having taken many a trip to Okinawa, the locals appreciate the tourist dollars of the US GIs coming from the nearby military base, but otherwise have a pretty strained - and, in some quarters, openly hostile - relationship with them (not helped by the fact that GIs have been involved in several murders and high-profile rape cases, including one of a 12 year old girl).

Is it ignorant? Sure. But as I said, every culture has its warts. The Japanese would probably contend that denying service to people who look different is no worse than shooting them, which is what tends to happen in America.

chaosbowser posted...

What i find amusing is your inability to realize the problem.

I don't think I ever said this wasn't a problem, nor have I ever denied that Japan has issues with xenophobia.

chaosbowser posted...

It says that in America at least inequality is largely racial

No comment on the significant economic inequality that plagues America?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Amongst Western nations, only Mexico has worse inequality (South Africa too, depending on how you want to define "Western"), sitting around the 30s, depending on what data you're using. If you scroll way down, you'll see Japan sitting in the 120s.

chaosbowser posted...

My point was that our population continues to grow because we have a strong immigrant population which we encourage where as japan does not and entirely of their own choice.

Given your current president's statements and policy decisions vis-a-vis immigration (both legal and otherwise), I question exactly how much "encouragement" the US is giving these days.

Regardless, you're correct that Japan has low immigration, that is by choice, and I've mentioned that myself several times.

You seem to be misunderstanding me in this little debate. I've never said that Japan was a saintly nation with no problems whatsoever, nor did I suggest it's markedly better than the US. I simply said the issues that Japan faces are different than the ones the US faces and it's ultimately down to personal opinion as to whether or not one outstrips the other.

The US has horrific issues with violence, particularly gun violence, income inequality, and social disunity. Japan struggles with sexism, xenophobia, and a tendency to hide personal problems.

Again, one nation's culture isn't better than the other; they are simply different.
---

Annnnnd I'm out before this goes way off topic.
---

No, don't let them distract you from my genuine playthrough topic
---

PK_Spam posted...

No, don't let them distract you from my genuine playthrough topic

Pretty much decided to put those two on ignore.
---

Who thought that me saying a fictional father was bad would've spawned that whole essay debate?
---

I guess some people are more sensible than they appear. o.o
---

PK_Spam posted...

No, don't let them distract you from my genuine playthrough topic

You know, I think it's very rude of you to hijack our discussion on transpacific sociopolitics to post discussions on a video game. Seriously, now, stay on topic.

(for srs, though, Tales of Graces is awesome).
---

I started Xillia 2. Enjoying the completion aspects of it, vis-a-vis the job board and character-specific sidequests. Debt system isn't as stupid as the people on reddit made it seem, but holy shit there needs to be a way to stop the bitch from calling every time my gald on hand increases.

No spoilers please, I'm not very far :3
---

Dumb question

Does Laphicet get a Baby Lambda costume in Berseria?
---

PK_Spam posted...

Dumb question

Does Laphicet get a Baby Lambda costume in Berseria?

Not to the best of my knowledge, no.
---

Why?

It already looks just like him
---

I don't remember how I handled Gald in Xillia 2, but it must have been pretty well for not getting annoyed with Nova
---

MechaKirby posted...

I don't remember how I handled Gald in Xillia 2, but it must have been pretty well for not getting annoyed with Nova

It's just annoying how she calls all the fucking time when you have enough gald on hand. Like generally, I just mash O to hang up on her, but occasionally they don't let you back out, so I just pay 1 gald.

If they aren't going to penalize you for not paying "on time," they shouldn't have her hounding you all the bloody time, especially when you can get around the system (when they won't let you press O) by just paying one gald.
---

Just beat Lambda Richard. Here comes the final(ish) boss!
---

Annnnnnd... I got his wang right up my butt for that entire fight.

Guess I'll spend time grinding
---