Current Events > If your kid is vaccinated, what gives you the right...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gheb posted...

The fact that this argument is so cleanly split between notorious shitposters and literally everyone else basically says everything you need to know.

Me, conflict, axiom, bullet wing, and t master?
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--kresnik-- posted...

because it weakens people's immune systems,

Nope.

Paragon21XX posted...

Here's an idea: let's take everyone that willfully chooses to not vaccinate their families without a medically acceptable cause and move them all to a remote island. This way the responsible members of society won't be at risk of being infected by the self-centered anti-vaxxers that will inevitably contract the once-eradicated diseases, and the anti-vaxxers don't have to be vaccinated if they don't want to with no one around to criticize their decision. Win-win.

It would be easier to move the vaxxers. There are already diseases here, so tough for you. You're the ones whining, so you can leave your homes and go live on a quarantined island somewhere with Bernie sanders as your president.
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100% vaccinated. 0% issues

Enjoy your disease
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--kresnik-- posted...

Paragon21XX posted...

Here's an idea: let's take everyone that willfully chooses to not vaccinate their families without a medically acceptable cause and move them all to a remote island. This way the responsible members of society won't be at risk of being infected by the self-centered anti-vaxxers that will inevitably contract the once-eradicated diseases, and the anti-vaxxers don't have to be vaccinated if they don't want to with no one around to criticize their decision. Win-win.

It would be easier to move the vaxxers. There are already diseases here, so tough for you. You're the ones whining, so you can leave your homes and go live on a quarantined island somewhere with Bernie sanders as your president.

Logistics are much easier for evicting the fringe minority that is anti-vaxxers. Unless that is you are offering to pay up for moving 300 million people which I doubt.

And it is much easier to charge an anti-vaxxer with capital murder if they have caused an epidemic resulting in fatalities if you want to go that route instead. Yeah, let's go with that.
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this topic
why is it still going

TC will never touch a woman so this topic is pointless
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Blue_Inigo posted...

TC will never touch a woman so this topic is pointless

Already have. I learned with a real woman.
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Sorry guys, I was gonna make this topic, but he beat me too it
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Why do ce take baits
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Why do people say anti-vaxx is a liberal position?
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Waluigi7 posted...

Why do people say anti-vaxx is a liberal position?

It isn't. Probably conservatives who equate "liberal" with "dumb." *rolls eyes*
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I wrote a 30 page paper last semester debunking a lot of arguments about vaccines, and this was one of them. During the presentation I played this fun game about herd immunity:

http://www.software3d.com/Home/Vax/Immunity.php

Change the "Immunization rate on left" to 0.5 or 0.7 and click a green dot and watch everyone die.

As for the topic, people already said why, herd immunity protects the people who can't be vaccinated, and vaccines are not 100% effective. So even if I did get a vaccine, I will not let an infected person cough in my face.
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All kids should be vaccinated because the growing dumb mindset not only means more people are going unvaccinated (which should be child abuse), but it also kills other innocent kids who's parents were dumb and didn't vaccinate them.


OR the rare case where a kid with cancer can't get vaccinated but has a weaker immune system.

Plus diseases evolve be prepared.
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I've had idiots who claim to be medical professionals chastise me for refusing to get flu shots. Flu shots didn't exist when I was younger and my immune system is exponentially better now. Flu shots are for people who get the flu. I don't, so they serve no purpose.
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https://pics.me.me/vaccines-made-this-iron-lung-obsolete-dont-bring-it-back-7508923.png
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/1c/55/97/1c5597e4c6800214cdc1a84e012d5eca.jpg
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Conflict posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I've had idiots who claim to be medical professionals chastise me for refusing to get flu shots. Flu shots didn't exist when I was younger and my immune system is exponentially better now. Flu shots are for people who get the flu. I don't, so they serve no purpose.

Lol

You should probably read that post over again.

Why?
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Why?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_drift
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift

Your immune system is composed of two parts: innate and adaptive.

Innate is non-specific. Your body producing a fever in hopes to kill off anything "non-self" before it does too much damage to yourself. Your skin, acting as a barrier for pathogens. Your stomach acid, preventing a lot of acid-labile organisms from colonizing the GI tract.

The adaptive is the part that "remembers". White blood cells circulate in your blood until chemical signals clue it in on the location of potential pathogens, to which your vessels expand to allow them to squeeze inbetween into the extraceullar tissue space.

When encountered with "antigens" (surface markers), it stimulates an immune response to that specific antigen and either producing cell-mediated toxicity with T cells or production of antibodies with B cells. This takes a few days after catching an infection to have enough time pass to produce enough antibodies.

Some B cells become "memory B cells" after the infection that continue in circulation so as to respond to future strains of the same thing much more rapidly than a novel encounter. That's what people mean when they say they are "immunized." This can occur from a natural infection, but a vaccine is nothing more than the non-virulent part of the disease (meaning it's got the part that causes disease removed from it), but it still has the surface antigen so you create immunity.

The two links I posted describe the behavior of some viruses (particularly influenza strains) that change their surface antigens drastically enough such that even if you caught the flu last year, this year's strain is going to be different enough such that your body doesn't "remember" it.
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--kresnik-- posted...

Gheb posted...

The fact that this argument is so cleanly split between notorious shitposters and literally everyone else basically says everything you need to know.

Me, conflict, axiom, bullet wing, and t master?

He's saying that only the worst posters E.g. you peddle this anti-vaxx nonsense

You were included in it, too.
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--kresnik-- posted...

You were included in it, too.

You're the one that said the names not him. It's pretty clear what he meant to anyone with average reading comprehension

Your reading comprehension is only average? Hahahahaha
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--kresnik-- posted...

Your reading comprehension is only average? Hahahahaha

His is still higher than yours.
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Thanks for proving my point

You can't even comprehend the topic at hand.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Why?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_drift
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift

Your immune system is composed of two parts: innate and adaptive.

Innate is non-specific. Your body producing a fever in hopes to kill off anything "non-self" before it does too much damage to yourself. Your skin, acting as a barrier for pathogens. Your stomach acid, preventing a lot of acid-labile organisms from colonizing the GI tract.

The adaptive is the part that "remembers". White blood cells circulate in your blood until chemical signals clue it in on the location of potential pathogens, to which your vessels expand to allow them to squeeze inbetween into the extraceullar tissue space.

When encountered with "antigens" (surface markers), it stimulates an immune response to that specific antigen and either producing cell-mediated toxicity with T cells or production of antibodies with B cells. This takes a few days after catching an infection to have enough time pass to produce enough antibodies.

Some B cells become "memory B cells" after the infection that continue in circulation so as to respond to future strains of the same thing much more rapidly than a novel encounter. That's what people mean when they say they are "immunized." This can occur from a natural infection, but a vaccine is nothing more than the non-virulent part of the disease (meaning it's got the part that causes disease removed from it), but it still has the surface antigen so you create immunity.

The two links I posted describe the behavior of some viruses (particularly influenza strains) that change their surface antigens drastically enough such that even if you caught the flu last year, this year's strain is going to be different enough such that your body doesn't "remember" it.

The point is that I don't get the flu. If I have ever actually "caught" it, it has been obliterated by the innate side without so much as a low grade fever. I did get that swine flu thing almost 10 years ago, that was also obliterated. Put up enough of a fight to make me miss a day of work, but that's it. A flu shot to my innate immune system would be like offering nerf guns to super badass elite spec ops soldiers on top of all the weapons they already have. Any flu would have to be a predator strain for me to get significantly sick and even then, my immune system would go Arnold on it and I would be back to normal in at most, almost a week.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Soviet_Poland posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Why?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_drift
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift

Your immune system is composed of two parts: innate and adaptive.

Innate is non-specific. Your body producing a fever in hopes to kill off anything "non-self" before it does too much damage to yourself. Your skin, acting as a barrier for pathogens. Your stomach acid, preventing a lot of acid-labile organisms from colonizing the GI tract.

The adaptive is the part that "remembers". White blood cells circulate in your blood until chemical signals clue it in on the location of potential pathogens, to which your vessels expand to allow them to squeeze inbetween into the extraceullar tissue space.

When encountered with "antigens" (surface markers), it stimulates an immune response to that specific antigen and either producing cell-mediated toxicity with T cells or production of antibodies with B cells. This takes a few days after catching an infection to have enough time pass to produce enough antibodies.

Some B cells become "memory B cells" after the infection that continue in circulation so as to respond to future strains of the same thing much more rapidly than a novel encounter. That's what people mean when they say they are "immunized." This can occur from a natural infection, but a vaccine is nothing more than the non-virulent part of the disease (meaning it's got the part that causes disease removed from it), but it still has the surface antigen so you create immunity.

The two links I posted describe the behavior of some viruses (particularly influenza strains) that change their surface antigens drastically enough such that even if you caught the flu last year, this year's strain is going to be different enough such that your body doesn't "remember" it.

The point is that I don't get the flu. If I have ever actually "caught" it, it has been obliterated by the innate side without so much as a low grade fever. I did get that swine flu thing almost 10 years ago, that was also obliterated. Put up enough of a fight to make me miss a day of work, but that's it. A flu shot to my innate immune system would be like offering nerf guns to super badass elite spec ops soldiers on top of all the weapons they already have. Any flu would have to be a predator strain for me to get significantly sick and even then, my immune system would go Arnold on it and I would be back to normal in at most, almost a week.

how old are you?

20's?

I'd hope you wouldn't really need a flu shot. but again, the flu shot isn't really meant for young adults with healthy immune systems.

but your anecdotal situation isn't the same for everyone.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I've had idiots who claim to be medical professionals chastise me for refusing to get flu shots. Flu shots didn't exist when I was younger and my immune system is exponentially better now. Flu shots are for people who get the flu. I don't, so they serve no purpose.

Damn, you are over 80?
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--kresnik-- posted...

Just saiyan

its jus saiyan
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Waluigi7 posted...

Why do people say anti-vaxx is a liberal position?

Anti-Vaxx basically crops up in one of three ways

1) The liberal hippy who wants everything to be natural. These people are also against GMOs and the like.
2) The conservative libertarians who don't want the government to tell them what to put in their bodies
3) The uneducated/ignorant who literally think vaccines cause autism or are bad for you. Some of these people are just genuinely misinformed and some of these people are belligerently set in their misbelief. The former can be educated the latter is more likely to get defensive and combative. This isn't a politically driven belief, but these individuals are more likely to vote Republican than not which is why the Republican party is less likely to blast anti-vaxx stances. Democrats don't have that same worry because the hippies are at no risk of switching parties.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

The point is that I don't get the flu. If I have ever actually "caught" it, it has been obliterated by the innate side without so much as a low grade fever. I did get that swine flu thing almost 10 years ago, that was also obliterated. Put up enough of a fight to make me miss a day of work, but that's it. A flu shot to my innate immune system would be like offering nerf guns to super badass elite spec ops soldiers on top of all the weapons they already have. Any flu would have to be a predator strain for me to get significantly sick and even then, my immune system would go Arnold on it and I would be back to normal in at most, almost a week.

I think you're still misunderstanding. Vaccines do not affect the innate immune system. Also, the Spanish Influenza pandemic of 1918 was more deadly than the Black Plague. It affected young people in their 20s with healthy, robust immune systems through something called "cytokine storm."

It was so immune-system stimulating, people essentially died of their own immune response to that influenza strain. This was in stark contrast to other strains of influenza which are usually only potentially deadly to newborns and elderly.

That was just that one particular strain but all it takes is one year's influenza A strain to go through antigenic shift and be potentially catastrophic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic


You can probably get away with not getting the flu shot. It's not 100% effective, but most people who actually catch the seasonal flu have a pretty shitty illness that knocks you on your ass for a week at the very least. Most who say they had it before and it lasted a day are just talking about a run-of-the-mill cold. Most who go through a true flu tend to opt for the shot every year to minimize the chances of going through it again. Again, has nothing to do with your immune system being "weak" or "strong." If you spend enough time around people sick with the flu, you're going to catch it. If they sneeze on you, you're going to catch it.

Saying "I haven't gotten it yet!" is like saying you don't wear your seatbelt because you haven't crashed yet.
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Southcoast is an anti-vaxxing loser? Why am I not surprised.
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I'm 34. Yeah I know my situation isn't typical. I'm not against people getting flu shots. I'm just against me getting them :P
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Gheb posted...

Waluigi7 posted...

Why do people say anti-vaxx is a liberal position?

Anti-Vaxx basically crops up in one of three ways

1) The liberal hippy who wants everything to be natural. These people are also against GMOs and the like.
2) The conservative libertarians who don't want the government to tell them what to put in their bodies
3) The uneducated/ignorant who literally think vaccines cause autism or are bad for you. Some of these people are just genuinely misinformed and some of these people are belligerently set in their misbelief. The former can be educated the latter is more likely to get defensive and combative. This isn't a politically driven belief, but these individuals are more likely to vote Republican than not which is why the Republican party is less likely to blast anti-vaxx stances. Democrats don't have that same worry because the hippies are at no risk of switching parties.

Perfect response. It isn't a political argument.

It's a science vs I know better than science argument, sprinkled with a dose of religion.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Yeah I know my situation isn't typical

Lol, what situation? Your immune system isn't a special snowflake.

You have full autonomy to make your own medical decisions, even against your interests. Doesn't stop me from calling you out when you get really basic immunology facts wrong.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I'm 34. Yeah I know my situation isn't typical. I'm not against people getting flu shots. I'm just against me getting them :P

...So you're still rather young with a healthy immune system...
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(Reply to Poland guy)

I've been around sick people plenty. Whenever an illness goes around where I work, I either don't get it or it's so weak and pathetic that I'm asymptomatic. I remember one bug that went around... One girl was out for several days and checked herself into the hospital because it was affecting her respiratory system. I... had some sinus congestion.

And the swine flu. Caught that from a roommate who worked in the dining hall of a college where there had been an outbreak. He was sick as fuck for a week. I was somewhat sick, got over it in 3 days.

It's not that I haven't gotten in yet. It's just that I don't really get sick unless I go out of my way inadvertently (such as passing out drunk with windows wide open when it's unseasonably 30-something degrees out. THAT got me sick... but again, not for long. Got a minor sinus infection that cleared up after like 2 days of taking Dayquil and using some nasal spray).

It's extremely rare for any illness to knock me on my ass, and in the few cases I can recall over the last 15 years or so, nothing has ever lasted a week. I don't avoid sick people. I don't wash my hands except for after using the bathroom or if they are really dirty. I never use hand sanitizer or take any shit like airborne. I wear the same clothes in the winter as the rest of the year except with a leather jacket (I will cover my nose and ears if it gets below 0 to avoid frostbite) and turn my heat off when I go to bed. Still, only anomalous circumstances even lead to minor colds when my entire lifestyle is devoid of any efforts to avoid sickness.

I understand what you're saying and I'm not suggesting people should follow my example. I'm just explaining my experiences. I'm not against vaccination, and I see flu shots as a good thing overall. They just aren't for me. I've been fine without them and I will continue to be.
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The Great Muta 22 posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I'm 34. Yeah I know my situation isn't typical. I'm not against people getting flu shots. I'm just against me getting them :P

...So you're still rather young with a healthy immune system...

Healthy and robust, more so even than a decade ago.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Yeah I know my situation isn't typical

Lol, what situation? Your immune system isn't a special snowflake.

You have full autonomy to make your own medical decisions, even against your interests. Doesn't stop me from calling you out when you get really basic immunology facts wrong.

This isn't a political discussion. Keep the buzzwords out of it. You aren't actually calling me out on anything. I'll wait until you've read the longer post before saying anything more.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

This isn't a political discussion. Keep the buzzwords out of it.

Not referencing politics. I'm saying your physiology isn't as unique as you think it is and your understanding of health and disease is very elementary.

I'm glad you've been relatively lucky with regards to infectious disease--such is often the case living in the developed world. Doesn't mean you aren't susceptible to things though.
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Jeez Southcoast, everyone of your topics are like a handful of stupid pills.
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mustachedmystic posted...

Jeez Southcoast, everyone of your topics are like a handful of stupid pills.

This topic is fun.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

This isn't a political discussion. Keep the buzzwords out of it.

Not referencing politics. I'm saying your physiology isn't as unique as you think it is and your understanding of health and disease is very elementary.

I'm glad you've been relatively lucky with regards to infectious disease--such is often the case living in the developed world. Doesn't mean you aren't susceptible to things though.

At what point do you stop and think "maybe this isn't just luck?" Swine flu was a fairly serious thing. People with weak or compromised immune systems in less developed areas died from it. I missed 1 day of work. Yes, developed country, but that would only be a factor if I required medical treatment for it. People around me get sick. I get sinus congestion or nothing. Not once. Every time. I guess if you haven't lived it, it seems like luck and/or constant coincidence.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Soviet_Poland posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

This isn't a political discussion. Keep the buzzwords out of it.

Not referencing politics. I'm saying your physiology isn't as unique as you think it is and your understanding of health and disease is very elementary.

I'm glad you've been relatively lucky with regards to infectious disease--such is often the case living in the developed world. Doesn't mean you aren't susceptible to things though.

At what point do you stop and think "maybe this isn't just luck?" Swine flu was a fairly serious thing. People with weak or compromised immune systems in less developed areas died from it. I missed 1 day of work. Yes, developed country, but that would only be a factor if I required medical treatment for it. People around me get sick. I get sinus congestion or nothing. Not once. Every time. I guess if you haven't lived it, it seems like luck and/or constant coincidence.

I have two questions

We're you sick a lot as a kid?
And what will you do if you ever get a serious flu?
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itachi15243 posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Soviet_Poland posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

This isn't a political discussion. Keep the buzzwords out of it.

Not referencing politics. I'm saying your physiology isn't as unique as you think it is and your understanding of health and disease is very elementary.

I'm glad you've been relatively lucky with regards to infectious disease--such is often the case living in the developed world. Doesn't mean you aren't susceptible to things though.

At what point do you stop and think "maybe this isn't just luck?" Swine flu was a fairly serious thing. People with weak or compromised immune systems in less developed areas died from it. I missed 1 day of work. Yes, developed country, but that would only be a factor if I required medical treatment for it. People around me get sick. I get sinus congestion or nothing. Not once. Every time. I guess if you haven't lived it, it seems like luck and/or constant coincidence.

I have two questions

We're you sick a lot as a kid?
And what will you do if you ever get a serious flu?

I had ear infections and sore throats a lot as a kid, sinus infections a bit more often than average as a teenager. Otherwise, I'd say I was average.

I did get a serious flu, the swine flu. I rested, took a day off work (other few days I was sick were days off already), used sore throat spray because a roommate had some. Got over it. If I got some worse flu, I'd approach it the same way. If it's less serious than that one was, I wouldn't be significantly affected by it and wouldn't do anything because I likely would only experience sinus congestion, minor sore throat, mild fatigue, possible but unlikely fever of no more than 100 or so, possible mild aches, possible mild sleep issues. The usual suspects...
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Some kids have medical conditions that prevent them from being able to have the vaccine. Which is why all able bodied kids should get it to create a strong herd immunity to protect them.
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Returning_CEmen posted...

Some kids have medical conditions that prevent them from being able to have the vaccine. Which is why all able bodied kids should get it to create a strong herd immunity to protect them.

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Conflict posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Conflict posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I've had idiots who claim to be medical professionals chastise me for refusing to get flu shots. Flu shots didn't exist when I was younger and my immune system is exponentially better now. Flu shots are for people who get the flu. I don't, so they serve no purpose.

Lol

You should probably read that post over again.

Why?

Because it makes no sense. I've gotten flu shots and I've never had the flu. It's supposed to be preventative... not a cure.

You misread me completely in that case. People who get the flu should get shots to prevent them from getting the next strains. At no point did I even imply that I would think it's meant to be a cure. Even if it was, that doesn't matter. I don't need a cure for minor sinus congestion, nor do I care enough to prevent it. It's a small inconvenience and it's the extent of what flus can cause me unless they are really serious ones like, as previously cited, the swine flu. Even then, that was nearly 10 years ago and I'm even less prone to illness now.

Why would I just start getting them now? It's not even that I go out of my way to not get them. Until like 2 years ago, I hadn't even seem a doctor in literally a decade. If flu shots were a thing back then, they were not mainstream. I don't care if I get sick because it is such a rare thing and it barely qualifies as an inconvenience when it does happen.
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