Current Events > What specifically makes fascism a right-wing form of government?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Google labels it a "far-right" system, though last I checked, a collectivist system derived from Marxism wherein Capitalism is vilified, the state is totalitarian, modernism is rejected, and where disagreement is tantamount to treason all seem like entirely far-left ideals.
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Trying too hard
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gunplagirl posted...

Trying too hard

Got no answer, then?
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https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/898254826277978113

luigi13579 posted...

https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/898254826277978113

That guy only differentiates between fascism and socialism in that fascists were racists and were slightly more tolerant of private businesses than Lenin was.

Is that how you define "right -wing"? Racism and allowing any private industry at all?, even though it was regulated so heavily under Hitler and Mussolini that it was de facto state-run anyway? If that's the case, is Venezuela right-wing too?

And Che Guevara was REALLY racist against black people and is the hero of basically all South American socialists, so are ALL of them also right-wing?
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Isn't that just what the word means? The extreme of right-wing is fascism, the extreme of left-wing is anarchy. That's what I seeeeeem to remember from my civics class years and years ago.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Isn't that just what the word means? The extreme of right-wing is fascism, the extreme of left-wing is anarchy. That's what I seeeeeem to remember from my civics class years and years ago.

That's if you believe right = authoritarian and left = liberal

If that's the case, was Stalin therefore a right-winger? Is Ron Paul therefore a left-winger?
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What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?
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Error1355 posted...

What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?

because rabble rabble rabble
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Error1355 posted...

What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?

Because voices on the left are doing their best to equate right-wing ideals like small government, free speech, and property rights with fascism.

In actuality, the only groups that are behaving like fascists (save for actual neo-nazis) are the far-left groups like BAMN and Antifa.
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Mal_Fet posted...

Error1355 posted...

What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?

Because voices on the left are doing their best to equate right-wing ideals like small government, free speech, and property rights with fascism.

In actuality, the only groups that are behaving like fascists (save for actual neo-nazis) are the far-left groups like BAMN and Antifa.

lol trying too hard
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Mal_Fet posted...

Because voices on the left are doing their best to equate right-wing ideals like small government, free speech, and property rights with fascism.

Who exactly is saying these exact things? Or are you taking people not being okay with Nazis doing marches in cities as an attack on free speech? And in that case isn't it going against the 'free speech' of people who want to voice that they don't like Nazis? Or are you defending the Nazis? I'm not sure what your game is here.

Mal_Fet posted...

In actuality, the only group that is behaving like fascists (save for actual neo-nazis) are the far-left groups like BAMN and Antifa.

*blinks*

What.
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Error1355 posted...

What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?

Right wingers want to be able to use it against Liberals. You see this shit with all the "omg Nazis were socialists" shitposts.
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Error1355 posted...

Who exactly is saying these exact things? Or are you taking people not being okay with Nazis doing marches in cities as an attack on free speech?

Yes, the left frequently accuses anyone who defends the rights of bad people to be a Nazi themselves. Are you really going to make me find evidence of this? Have you never heard of Antifa before?

Error1355 posted...

*blinks*

What.

- Collectivist? check
- Vilifies capitalism? check
- Uses violence to quash dissent? check
- Post-modern? check

Read up a bit on "Nazi brownshirts" and you'll probably be astounded just how similar they are to the alt-left.
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Extreme nationalism
Expansionism
Racial superiority
Consolidating capital (as opposed to redistribution)
Banning Trade Unions
Relaxing gun control laws for everyone except for the 'inferior' sectors of the population (e.g. Jews)
Mass privatizations in the 1930s (the term actually comes from an Economist article on German economic policy at the time)

They literally killed off the left-wing of the party (the Strasserists and Rohm on the Night of the Long Knives). The SDP (socialists) were the only party to vote against the Enabling Act, despite threats of violence. The equivalents of modern conservatives / classical liberals voted unanimously for it.

Mal_Fet posted...

Because voices on the left are doing their best to equate right-wing ideals like small government, free speech, and property rights with fascism.

Linking free speech and small government to fascism is obviously idiotic, but that doesn't mean you reply to that with more idiocy.

On property rights, fascists were very much "in bed" with the aristocracy, land owners / farmers, etc. Although, obviously it's not specifically a fascist policy. That'd be idiotic to claim too.

-Gavirulax- posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Error1355 posted...

What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?

Because voices on the left are doing their best to equate right-wing ideals like small government, free speech, and property rights with fascism.

In actuality, the only groups that are behaving like fascists (save for actual neo-nazis) are the far-left groups like BAMN and Antifa.

To be fair both the alt-right/far right and regressive left/far left are both extremely shitty.
Also free speech should not be a conservative issue....it just shouldn't be. But given the current outrage culture combined with political correctness, it seems to have become one.

I agree with this. Free speech is a Liberal (capital L) ideal shared by both liberals and conservatives in western democracies.
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Blue_Dream87 posted...

Error1355 posted...

What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?

Right wingers want to be able to use it against Liberals. You see this shit with all the "omg Nazis were socialists" shitposts.

Plus that 'the democrats are the party of the kkk' line that ignores the last 100+ years and party lines swapping.
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-Gavirulax- posted...

To be fair both the alt-right/far right and regressive left/far left are both extremely shitty.
Also free speech should not be a conservative issue....it just shouldn't be. But given the current outrage culture combined with political correctness, it seems to have become one

You're absolutely right. Free speech is not exclusively a right-wing ideal, but the authoritarian left has dominated for so long at this point that any leftist who advocates for it are vilified by their own.

Just look at what happened to Laci Green.
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gunplagirl posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

Error1355 posted...

What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?

Right wingers want to be able to use it against Liberals. You see this shit with all the "omg Nazis were socialists" shitposts.

Plus that 'the democrats are the party of the kkk' line that ignores the last 100+ years and party lines swapping.

Revisionist history. There was no big swap of party ideals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2VsZPplug
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Mal_Fet posted...

Yes, the left frequently accuses anyone who defends the rights of bad people to be a Nazi themselves.

I mean this comment here is vague in all ways. 'The left' 'frequently accuses' 'anyone who defends the rights' of 'bad people' to be a Nazi. The only non-vague part of your post is the Nazi comment. Everything else is just generalizing everyone on 'the left'. You are generalizing 'the left' while bitching about 'the left' generalizing 'the right'.
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Mal_Fet posted...

gunplagirl posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

Error1355 posted...

What's it matter either way? Unless you're trying to defend fascism. Non-extremists on either side of the American political system will agree fascism is bad regardless if they are 'right wing' or 'left wing'. So why does it fucking matter which direction it leans in?

Right wingers want to be able to use it against Liberals. You see this shit with all the "omg Nazis were socialists" shitposts.

Plus that 'the democrats are the party of the kkk' line that ignores the last 100+ years and party lines swapping.

Revisionist history. There was no big swap of party ideals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2VsZPplug

They voted for trump, therefore trump is a democrat and supporting liberals? Wat
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Error1355 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Yes, the left frequently accuses anyone who defends the rights of bad people to be a Nazi themselves.

I mean this comment here is vague in all ways. 'The left' 'frequently accuses' 'anyone who defends the rights' of 'bad people' to be a Nazi. The only non-vague part of your post is the Nazi comment. Everything else is just generalizing everyone on 'the left'. You are generalizing 'the left' while bitching about 'the left' generalizing 'the right'.

Isn't generalizing an entire group of people also moddable?
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gunplagirl posted...

Isn't generalizing an entire group of people also moddable?

If done in a way that is offensive or trolling it can be. Mal is just being a bit daft with his transparently poor political shit posting.
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Error1355 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Yes, the left frequently accuses anyone who defends the rights of bad people to be a Nazi themselves.

I mean this comment here is vague in all ways. 'The left' 'frequently accuses' 'anyone who defends the rights' of 'bad people' to be a Nazi. The only non-vague part of your post is the Nazi comment. Everything else is just generalizing everyone on 'the left'. You are generalizing 'the left' while bitching about 'the left' generalizing 'the right'.

Here's CNN calling people at the free speech rally "alt-right", even though nobody advocated for bigotry in any capacity at the rally nor showed any support for alt-right politics.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/19/us/boston-counterprotest-crowd-video-trnd/index.html

the Boston rally, as planned, was not a white supremacist event, but its organizers are "in step with the alt right in their hatred of feminists and immigrants, among others."

Are CNN, the ADL, and 40,000 leftists not adequate representatives of the left? If that's not a fair generalization, then what the hell is?

And let's be clear here: I'm not saying all leftists are fascists. I am saying that far-left activists are more similar to Nazis than any other group in the US, besides the actual Nazis.

gunplagirl posted...

I'm not on Wi-Fi, type darn you

Point is, there was never any "switch". Minorities were voting democrat long before the Dixiecrats broke off from the Democratic party, and it was a Republican president who sent the national guard to Little Rock, Arkansas to force the mayor to integrate schools (10 years before the Civil Rights movement, fyi).
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By that single example logic, then McCain is a hardcore liberal and comrade jeb bush will get all the claps he could ask for... Next time he... Asks for us to clap.
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gunplagirl posted...

By that single example logic, then McCain is a hardcore liberal and comrade jeb bush will get all the claps he could ask for... Next time he... Asks for us to clap.

You're conflating "Republican" with "neo-con". These aren't the same thing. Not all Republicans are neo-cons, just like not all Democrats are liberals.
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Also @Error1355 where are you in that topic that's accusing all conservatives of not caring about the Constitution? That's an unfair generalization, right?
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Mal_Fet posted...

gunplagirl posted...

By that single example logic, then McCain is a hardcore liberal and comrade jeb bush will get all the claps he could ask for... Next time he... Asks for us to clap.

You're conflating "Republican" with "neo-con". These aren't the same thing. Not all Republicans are neo-cons, just like not all Democrats are liberals.

Are... Are you being serious or are you just shitposting?

Don't answer.
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gunplagirl posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

gunplagirl posted...

By that single example logic, then McCain is a hardcore liberal and comrade jeb bush will get all the claps he could ask for... Next time he... Asks for us to clap.

You're conflating "Republican" with "neo-con". These aren't the same thing. Not all Republicans are neo-cons, just like not all Democrats are liberals.

Are... Are you being serious or are you just shitposting?

Don't answer.

Words have meanings, bro. You don't get to flub them to make politics more palatable for you to understand.
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The Nazis are a bad example because facism happened during pre-war/post war time which pretty much means you are guranteed an authoritarian like government regardless of what side you leaned on. The only example we have is Spain in the 60s which looked like a Texan libertarian's ummmm dream lol.
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Mal, you'd do a lot better to actually formulate your opinions on types of government and rule based on stuff other than the US for the last like, 2 years or so. If I post accredited scholars defining what actually defines fascism would you take time to read it, or would you simply say it's wrong and act as if you know more than them?

Anyway fascism as a concept is inherently neither a "left" or "right" form of government, as it exists outside of the linear political spectrum. It's hard to give it a specific definition though, due to the differences between fascist governments, specifically the Nazi party and the National Fascist Party of Italy. When you look at the examples of fascist governments in history, specifically in early 20th century Europe which saw the rise of multiple ideologies rose that were linked to fascism, there's some commonalities between them. Generally all of them were developed with a sense of nationalistic pride, specifically as a response to the rise of class based ideologies of socialism and communism. But they also had issues with Liberalism and Conservatism of their times as well. And most of them also believed heavily in imperialism and developing a totalitarian state for their "empires". Likewise economically most of them also believed in a blend of capitalism and Marxism, placing it outside of the spectrum of those two ideologies. What's unique to the Nazi party specifically was the general anti-Semitic nature, though plenty of historians accredit that to the general thought that had been cultivating in Germany well prior to the rise of the Nazi party and more in the late 19th century throughout smaller towns and rural cities.

Anyway I don't have time to say more but it's completely intellectually dishonest to claim fascism as a concept is left or right and any serious amount of research into the subject tends to point in that direction.
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JBaLLEN66 posted...

The Nazis are a bad example because facism happened during pre-war/post war time which pretty much means you are guranteed an authoritarian like government regardless of what side you leaned on. The only example we have is Spain in the 60s which looked like a Texan libertarian's ummmm dream lol.

More like a Texas neo-con's dream.

No heavily authoritarian government can seriously be described as "libertarian".
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The Great Muta 22 posted...

If I post accredited scholars defining what actually defines fascism would you take time to read it, or would you simply say it's wrong and act as if you know more than them?

Sure, why wouldn't I

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Anyway fascism as a concept is inherently neither a "left" or "right" form of government, as it exists outside of the linear political spectrum. It's hard to give it a specific definition though, due to the differences between fascist governments, specifically the Nazi party and the National Fascist Party of Italy. When you look at the examples of fascist governments in history, specifically in early 20th century Europe which saw the rise of multiple ideologies rose that were linked to fascism, there's some commonalities between them. Generally all of them were developed with a sense of nationalistic pride, specifically as a response to the rise of class based ideologies of socialism and communism. But they also had issues with Liberalism and Conservatism of their times as well. And most of them also believed heavily in imperialism and developing a totalitarian state for their "empires". Likewise economically most of them also believed in a blend of capitalism and Marxism, placing it outside of the spectrum of those two ideologies

Saying fascism arose as a "response" to Marxism is dishonest when all of the original philosophers of fascism were Marxists. It's more honest to call fascism an offshoot of Marxism, much like Leninism was.

Further, any "blend" of capitalism in fascist countries like Nazi Germany or Italy involved heavy regulation on private sectors including but not limited to major government intervention on the means of production like price fixing and wage fixing. These are self-evidently not Capitalist ideals; they're much more closely related to Marxism than anything.

As for nationalism and imperialism, these things can be characteristic of the right, but they can also characterize the left. Marx predicted that the working class would rise up against the capitalists, but by the time Mussolini came around, it was a foregone conclusion that wouldn't happen. The biggest difference between Mussolini and Marx is the former believed that national pride was a better motivator than class pride to get the socialist revolution going.

And if you still disbelieve that Mussolini was a socialist, ask yourself why Mussolini-controlled Salo was self-described as the only true socialist society in the world"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic

Anyway I don't have time to say more but it's completely intellectually dishonest to claim fascism as a concept is left or right and any serious amount of research into the subject tends to point in that direction

If Marxism is definitively leftists, I don't see why fascism isn't when they share most major policies and philosophies. It's like saying the Sunni's are definitely muslims, but Shi'ites occupy no single religion; completely incomprehensible.
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lol @ arguing with mal fet, hes like 18 and just took poli sci 101 last semester. if he cant be bothered to google why fascism is right wing then its not worth debating, just move on
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Why is your response to stupid people caring too much about labels to care even more about labels?
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Dragonblade01 posted...

Why is your response to stupid people caring too much about labels to care even more about labels?

I don't care more about labels than they do. I would never call Bernie Sanders a fascist just because he exists in the same spectrum as fascism.

But a lot of people on the left (like CNN and the ADL) will call you a fascist if you are on the same spectrum as Thomas Jefferson, even though he's just about the furthest person from fascism you could get in the history of American politics.
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Bump
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@Error1355 where are you in the topics

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/400-current-events/75710073

and

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/400-current-events/75710172

and

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/400-current-events/75709114

where they're making generalizations about Republicans and conservatives?
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Liberals believe in freedom, civil rights, equality. Conservatives believe the opposite.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Isn't that just what the word means? The extreme of right-wing is fascism, the extreme of left-wing is anarchy. That's what I seeeeeem to remember from my civics class years and years ago.

Anarchy is neither left nor right. There are anarcho-capitalists that (in addition to being a big fucking joke) are certainly right wing, and anarcho-communists.
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Mal_Fet posted...

a collectivist system derived from Marxism wherein Capitalism is vilified, the state is totalitarian, modernism is rejected, and where disagreement is tantamount to treason

That's not the definition of Fascism. The only parts of that that apply to Fascism are totalitarian government and disagreement being treason.
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CrimsonRage posted...

You did it, Mal. You cracked the case. Fascism is actually left-wing! Now all you need to do is publish a paper in an academic journal and get all the rest of the academics on board. Maybe write a dissertation and send it to universities to tell them that the last 100 years of teaching is actually wrong! Oh wait, those are just liberals and liberals indoctrinators who will just deny THE TRUTH. Only you know this secret knowledge! Maybe try for a guest appearance on Alex Jones instead!

It's not a secret and never has been. It's a matter of historical fact that all the original fascists were Marxists and that Fascism, like Leninism, is simply another collectivist form of government and social order based on the teachings of Marx. Ergo, not right-wing.

And let's not forget how Google and certain academics is incredibly hostile to the truth when it goes against the leftist narrative, k?

lilORANG posted...

Liberals believe in freedom, civil rights, equality.

Too bad leftists aren't liberal.
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DarkChozoGhost posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

a collectivist system derived from Marxism wherein Capitalism is vilified, the state is totalitarian, modernism is rejected, and where disagreement is tantamount to treason

That's not the definition of Fascism. The only parts of that that apply to Fascism are totalitarian government and disagreement being treason.

So enlighten me: what's the real definition of fascism that Mussolini, Gentile, and Sorel forgot to mention?
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Mal_Fet posted...

JBaLLEN66 posted...

The Nazis are a bad example because facism happened during pre-war/post war time which pretty much means you are guranteed an authoritarian like government regardless of what side you leaned on. The only example we have is Spain in the 60s which looked like a Texan libertarian's ummmm dream lol.

More like a Texas neo-con's dream.

No heavily authoritarian government can seriously be described as "libertarian".

Again read the first part of my post. During war times, Authoritarian governments appear because they are the most efficient during war time.
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JBaLLEN66 posted...

Again read the first part of my post. During war times, Authoritarian governments appear because they are the most efficient during war time.

The definition of right-wing and left-wing don't change depending on whether you're at war.

And if you still want to argue the point, Hitler and Mussolini were unquestionably socialists before they took power and went to war.
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Mal_Fet posted...

Too bad leftists aren't liberal.

neither are conservatives so my point still stands >_>
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CrimsonRage posted...

You did it, Mal. You cracked the case. Fascism is actually left-wing! Now all you need to do is publish a paper in an academic journal and get all the rest of the academics on board. Maybe write a dissertation and send it to universities to tell them that the last 100 years of teaching is actually wrong! Oh wait, those are just liberals and liberals indoctrinators who will just deny THE TRUTH. Only you know this secret knowledge! Maybe try for a guest appearance on Alex Jones instead!

lmao. And people accuse liberals of rewriting history.

Citing academics is a blatant appeal to authority
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Fascism is seen as right-wing due to its heavy focus on nationalism over globalism, which is a heavy right wing ideology. Also, government control of businesses appears in both left-wing and right-wing ideologies. Free markets only exist in a small subset ideologies on both sides.
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