Current Events > Why companies cannot survive with minimum wage at $15/hr.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Let's look at Walmart, in the year 2016:
Net income: $13.64 billion
Number of employees: 2.3 million

If the income goes to $0, Walmart can only afford to give its employees a $2.85/hr raise (at 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year).

McDonald's:
Net income: $4.686 billion
Number of employees: 375,000

That's $6/hr raise, if the company's income goes to $0.

Printerscape posted...

Let's look at Walmart, in the year 2016:
Net income: $13.64 billion
Number of employees: 2.3 million

If the income goes to $0, Walmart can only afford to give its employees a $2.85/hr raise (at 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year).

McDonald's:
Net income: $4.686 billion
Number of employees: 375,000

That's $6/hr raise, if the company's income goes to $0.

but their net income isn't going to drop to zero or they would go out of business so your point is moot

you'd also have to prepare for more spending by virtue of having more disposable income.
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CharlesBronson posted...

but their net income isn't going to drop to zero or they would go out of business so your point is moot

That's the point. And some businesses have negative net incomes, and stay in business.

chrono625 posted...

you'd also have to prepare for more spending by virtue of having more disposable income.

Broken window fallacy. NEXT!
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huuuuh i dont get it just give us $15 already huuuh

1. Make up a situation that will never happen.
2. ????????
3. Profit!
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Printerscape posted...

(at 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year).

...HAHAHAHAHA.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Every single employee is full time and currently making minimum wage?

Obviously not. This is a simplified calculation. McDonald's may be reasonable, but Walmart? A mere $2/hr raise across the board may cripple them.

Lets get it over with and just raise it to $50 an hour. That way nobody will be living in poverty

thrashmetal14 posted...

Lets get it over with and just raise it to $50 an hour. That way nobody will be living in poverty

Ah that old fallacy.

Printerscape posted...

but Walmart? A mere $2/hr raise across the board may cripple them.

Oh good lord....
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while i'm not opposed to a minimum wage increase (that'snot tied to inflation), I think that it's just a bandaid on a larger problem that basic income will fix
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Printerscape posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Every single employee is full time and currently making minimum wage?

Obviously not. This is a simplified calculation. McDonald's may be reasonable, but Walmart? A mere $2/hr raise across the board may cripple them.

if it does then good

fuck 'em
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thrashmetal14 posted...

Lets get it over with and just raise it to $50 an hour. That way nobody will be living in poverty

bad argument. no one is calling for that...but the cost of living is rising while wages are staying the same...all people are asking for is enough to...Live. Even $15 is BARELY enough to support yourself, alone in many places. Its not enough in some places. "THEN GO TO COLLEGE"...Sure...But even that isn't easy for everyone, puts them into even more debt and even if they get a job in their field immediately many still aren't earning enough to live. Not everyone who struggles is at the bare minimum. Our system is pretty fucked...

Walmart is doubling down hard on becoming an Amazon clone, and its store locations are oversaturated anyway. If anything they will go onto a Sears-style path of closing a bunch of stores, but competently this time and with a working backup plan.

There's really not much places they can cut labor costs elsewhere, as maybe two of the thirty checkout lines are ever open, and self-checkouts are still largely unused. Maybe more robots in the warehouse.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Walmart is doubling down hard on becoming an Amazon clone, and its store locations are oversaturated anyway. If anything they will go onto a Sears-style path of closing a bunch of stores, but competently this time and with a working backup plan.

There's really not much places they can cut labor costs elsewhere, as maybe two of the thirty checkout lines are ever open, and self-checkouts are still largely unused. Maybe more robots in the warehouse.

This was going to happen regardless....Brick and Mortar locations are struggling since so many people shop online...many big companies like Wal Mart are trying to use the online strategy to their advantage so when they day comes they can compete in that avenue. Companies like Sears don't seem to be embracing online sales as heavily and you can see how it affects them. Robots to aid or replace labor was already a thing. Started with self checkouts and its been evolving ever since. Amazon is constantly hiring at their Warehouses and they use robots to assist too...The industry is just changing. Its going to happen regardless.

Keep income the same and lower the cost of living lmao yeah right!
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TheVipaGTS posted...

Amazon is constantly hiring at their Warehouses and they use robots to assist too...

Because, robots still utterly suck at putting random objects into an appropriately sized box, and are likely to continue sucking at it for quite some time.

Questionmarktarius posted...

TheVipaGTS posted...

Amazon is constantly hiring at their Warehouses and they use robots to assist too...

Because, robots still utterly suck at putting random objects into an appropriately sized box, and are likely to continue sucking at it for quite some time.

Well that's kind of what I'm saying. the Industry is just shifting. "Higher wages just means fewer jobs and more automation!"...No, that's already happening. McDonalds isn't installing self service machines because of increased wages. Jobs lost at a place like Wal Mart are shifting to other areas like an Amazon Warehouse....Whether the minimum wage was $5 or $15 online shopping would still be hurting Brick and Mortar stores and those jobs would still be shifting over. Automation would still exist because the technology for it is getting better...

These days i can take a picture of a check with my phone and have the money go into my bank account without having to talk to a bank teller....did banks start doing that because wage increases forced them fire tellers? No, they did it because the technology now exists and they know their customers appreciate the convenience...Its going to happen regardless and using that as an excuse AGAINST a livable wage is wrong IMO.

TheVipaGTS posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

TheVipaGTS posted...

Amazon is constantly hiring at their Warehouses and they use robots to assist too...

Because, robots still utterly suck at putting random objects into an appropriately sized box, and are likely to continue sucking at it for quite some time.

Well that's kind of what I'm saying. the Industry is just shifting. "Higher wages just means fewer jobs and more automation!"...No, that's already happening. McDonalds isn't installing self service machines because of increased wages. Jobs lost at a place like Wal Mart are shifting to other areas like an Amazon Warehouse....Whether the minimum wage was $5 or $15 online shopping would still be hurting Brick and Mortar stores and those jobs would still be shifting over. Automation would still exist because the technology for it is getting better...

These days i can take a picture of a check with my phone and have the money go into my bank account without having to talk to a bank teller....did banks start doing that because wage increases forced them fire tellers? No, they did it because the technology now exists and they know their customers appreciate the convenience...Its going to happen regardless and using that as an excuse AGAINST a livable wage is wrong IMO.

Of course, this all feeds into the "evisceration of the middle class" narrative even more, as the forktruck driver was well-paid, and the only jobs left are standing in the same place for eight hours and putting things into boxes.
...for $13 an hour with "full benefits from day one".

If you want $15 an hour apply for a job that pays that. If you aren't eligible for jobs that pay $15 an hour then you're simply not worth $15 an hour.
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If we want decent paying jobs for the so-called "working class", the first step is to destigmatize vocational training. That's where the middle class largely came from.

If minimum wage goes up everything will just cost more and nothing changes.
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KBGiantsfan posted...

If minimum wage goes up everything will just cost more and nothing changes.

this is not at all accurate
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AIDSbeam posted...

KBGiantsfan posted...

If minimum wage goes up everything will just cost more and nothing changes.

this is not at all accurate

...Except it pretty much is.

There is a such thing as wage-inflation.
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The cost of everything is already going up....its one of the reasons people are calling for increased wages...."Its just going to make the cost of living go up so its pointless!".....as opposed to keeping things low and seeing the cost of living go up anyway...

More money, means more spending, means companies sell more products, means they make more money.

The question you should ask is how can companies survive when people don't even have enough to pay their bills let alone extra things?
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I like how the only argument leftists have against automation replacing expensive labor is "well the labor market is already going to shit anyway so we might as well speed up the process."

Annihilated posted...

I like how the only argument leftists have against automation replacing expensive labor is "well the labor market is already going to shit anyway so we might as well speed up the process."

That's not the argument at all...its just a counter to all the people who say "OMG IF WE DO THIS THEN X WILL HAPPEN">...No...stop creating a boogy man.....X is already happening regardless. The industry is shifting and jobs are moving to other areas. That is not a good argument against raising wages.

Instead we'll just make it that employees can't survive with minimum wage, because that's *so* much better and doing amazing things for the current lower class. Durr-hurr, yuppies r so smrt.

I swear, this country can't burn down fast enough, it's full of the dumbest assholes imaginable.
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TheVipaGTS posted...

Annihilated posted...

I like how the only argument leftists have against automation replacing expensive labor is "well the labor market is already going to shit anyway so we might as well speed up the process."

That's not the argument at all...its just a counter to all the people who say "OMG IF WE DO THIS THEN X WILL HAPPEN">...No...stop creating a boogy man.....X is already happening regardless. The industry is shifting and jobs are moving to other areas. That is not a good argument against raising wages.

Not only is it a good argument against raising wages, it's not even the only argument. It's just one of thousands.

TC assumes that McDonalds or Walmart wouldn't take steps to protect their bottom line, either by raising prices to compensate for higher wages, or phasing out jobs and relying on self-checkouts and automation. Gee, which one will they be doing?
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Nomadic View posted...

If you want $15 an hour apply for a job that pays that. If you aren't eligible for jobs that pay $15 an hour then you're simply not worth $15 an hour.

Ancap detected
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chrono625 posted...

you'd also have to prepare for more spending by virtue of having more disposable income.

The problem with this is that you aren't actually creating more value (more goods/services) going around in the economy. You are just moving money from one place to another. I don't think it has been proven at all that the money in question will have a greater multiplier effect than where it is currently at.

If it does, can you see how it would kind of be a perpetual motion machine? You raise minimum wage to $15 an hour, people can buy more stuff, businesses do better as a result, now they can afford a $25 an hour minimum wage, people can buy more stuff, businesses do better as a result, now they can afford a $50 an hour minimum wage, etc.

Why is that not logically consistent with the theory you have about having the money transferred to the wage earners having a multiplier effect throughout society?
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Inferno Dive Dragoon posted...

Instead we'll just make it that employees can't survive with minimum wage

THEY CAN'T NOW YOU.... Did you seriously say something that stupid?
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Annihilated posted...

Not only is it a good argument against raising wages

Nope.

Annihilated posted...

it's not even the only argument. It's just one of thousands.

Double nope. And ridiculous.
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Sir Will posted...

Annihilated posted...

Not only is it a good argument against raising wages

Nope.

Annihilated posted...

it's not even the only argument. It's just one of thousands.

Double nope. And ridiculous.

LMAO the only thing you ever know how to post is "nope." You know I'm right and you're just too emotionally devastated to process it.

Wal-Mart and McDonald's will benefit from this more than anyone and should be all for increased wages. It effectively makes them untouchable because smaller competitors simply can't afford it. They won't even need to try once they're the only options.
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The common argument is "Employers will cut jobs to save money"....that fails to take into account the fact that many people can't afford to buy more because they're making JUST enough to pay for rent, necessities, and food. You don't think that a consumer having a few extra dollars every month could benefit retail or restaurants?

And that is ignoring that fact that in many places even $12 an hour, full time at 40 hours is BARELY enough to get by...in some places its not nearly enough for a single income to get by...

Sir Will posted...

Inferno Dive Dragoon posted...

Instead we'll just make it that employees can't survive with minimum wage

THEY CAN'T NOW YOU.... Did you seriously say something that stupid?

Better question; Did you not read the rest of my post?
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TheVipaGTS posted...

The common argument is "Employers will cut jobs to save money"....that fails to take into account the fact that many people can't afford to buy more because they're making JUST enough to pay for rent, necessities, and food. You don't think that a consumer having a few extra dollars every month could benefit retail or restaurants?

And that is ignoring that fact that in many places even $12 an hour, full time at 40 hours is BARELY enough to get by...in some places its not nearly enough for a single income to get by...

See my post, and also just because someone declares that it is not enough to get by doesn't change the underlying economics.
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Wal-Mart already has self check out lanes. McDonald is going to go down that road regardless of minimum wage.
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Many Americas believe Adults working retail are scum and deserve to struggle. I work over 50 hours a week salaried making $32k and i'ts barely enough to afford a one bedroom shitty Apartment in a suburb. City life? 2-3x as much. Doesn't factor in theres no public transportation here, no sidewalks, and it's over 100F outside.
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CurzonDax posted...

Many Americas believe Adults working retail are scum and deserve to struggle. I work over 50 hours a week salaried making $32k and i'ts barely enough to afford a one bedroom shitty Apartment in a suburb. City life? 2-3x as much. Doesn't factor in theres no public transportation here, no sidewalks, and it's over 100F outside.

Hate to break this to you but you could easily live on that in 40 out of the 50 states. I had a roommate who owned a 3 bedroom house on less than that.

The average annual salary in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is equivalent to about $500 USD or so, possibly even less now since I read they just faced a big devaluation in their currency, which will makes things harder as they have to import a lot of their food.

Just trying to put things in perspective that there are people in the world making in a year what minimum wage in America makes in less than two weeks.
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Annihilated posted...

easily

Because it's just so simple to pack my bags and move out.
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Sativa_Rose posted...

The average annual salary in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is equivalent to about $500 USD or so, possibly even less now since I read they just faced a big devaluation in their currency, which will makes things harder as they have to import a lot of their food.

Just trying to put things in perspective that there are people in the world making in a year what minimum wage in America makes in less than two weeks.

Irrelevant. "other places have it worse so we shouldn't think of ways to make ourselves better" is a bad argument...