Poll of the Day > So why are transgenders unnatural?

(+) Yeah! (+)

When the animal kingdom itself has quite a few different animals that can change sex.

edit: So why are transgenders 'considered' unnatural?

Sorry just realized my title mistake hahahaha
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They aren't

Interesting.
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They are?
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Something something they make me feel weird in my no no zone.
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yutterh posted...

When the animal kingdom itself has quite a few different animals that can change sex.

Bad argument. They change sex for survival.

Not saying Transexuals are unnatural but this isn't a good argument.

Sensual_T_Rex posted...

Something something they make me feel weird in my no no zone.

This pretty much sums up the anti-trans people. People should be free to do what they want with their body. It doesnt affect me.
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Trans are unnatural but deserve protection. You're a low IQ buffoon if they scare you.
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IronBornCorps posted...

They aren't

they are. the very definition of the word "natural" means they aren't.

just like when people get pissed off if you say being gay isn't "normal". don't get upset at what the word means, just because something isn't normal doesn't mean you think it is bad.
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...but we got homosexuality in nature, how is that not normal?
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

IronBornCorps posted...

They aren't

they are. the very definition of the word "natural" means they aren't.

just like when people get pissed off if you say being gay isn't "normal". don't get upset at what the word means, just because something isn't normal doesn't mean you think it is bad.

Something can be normal without being predominant.
By your definition, blonde hair is not normal because it isnt the majority.
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Well trans people are born in nature, and have been documented throughout history. How is that not natural? Also, topic said natural, not normal.

yutterh posted...

When the animal kingdom itself has quite a few different animals that can change sex.

These animals don't suffer from gender dysphoria, like transgenders do.
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The animal kingdom also has creatures which will, by all technical definition, die during the winter then later return to life. Not to mention many strange and bizarre things.

It is true that, in certain species, it is entirely possible when the need arises for a member of the species to transition into another, fertile, member of the opposite sex to help procreate.

Those italicized words are very important.

Here is the things. Human beings do not 'naturally' change genders like that. When we do 'transition' we do it through surgical aid and cosmetic assistance to provide the appearance of being a member of the opposite sex. This is not natural.'

Please note, I did not say 'wrong' or 'bad'. Just not 'natural'. To the best of my knowledge no other animal does this; utilizing external sources to adopt the appearance of a member of the opposite sex of its own species while remaining infertile. You can claim it is positive or good, I'm not here to question its social or moral implications, I'm just here to point out that using various surgical methods to change into a member of the opposite sex to permit an individual to act as a member of the opposite sex out of internalized desire is not the same as a frog utilizing its genetic code to change its gender during times when one of the two is in short supply to ensure the survival of the species.
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Foppe posted...

...but we got homosexuality in nature, how is that not normal?

because the vast majority of the population are straight, hence not "normal".
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It depends on what you mean when you say "natural." If you simply mean "found in nature" well then technically everything that exists is natural. What most people mean when say "natural" in that context is "normal." Normal meaning "common." And since only .3% of the population identifies as transgender, I think its safe to say its not common.
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Not all transgender people go through these various procedures though, and cis people get plastic surgery as well.

Unbridled9 posted...

The animal kingdom also has creatures which will, by all technical definition, die during the winter then later return to life. Not to mention many strange and bizarre things.

It is true that, in certain species, it is entirely possible when the need arises for a member of the species to transition into another, fertile, member of the opposite sex to help procreate.

Those italicized words are very important.

Here is the things. Human beings do not 'naturally' change genders like that. When we do 'transition' we do it through surgical aid and cosmetic assistance to provide the appearance of being a member of the opposite sex. This is not natural.'

Please note, I did not say 'wrong' or 'bad'. Just not 'natural'. To the best of my knowledge no other animal does this; utilizing external sources to adopt the appearance of a member of the opposite sex of its own species while remaining infertile. You can claim it is positive or good, I'm not here to question its social or moral implications, I'm just here to point out that using various surgical methods to change into a member of the opposite sex to permit an individual to act as a member of the opposite sex out of internalized desire is not the same as a frog utilizing its genetic code to change its gender during times when one of the two is in short supply to ensure the survival of the species.

No other species uses transportation vehicles or uses computer's. If you look at humans our ability to adapt and change and create is part of our nature as beings. It is what truly makes us unique compared to others species. Our ingenuity is our gift. So maybe we can't turn like other animals through genetic means yet. We are the human race and to think that we can't evolve into safely doing genetic modification is insufferable. Others species evolve their body to compensate, we evolve our body because it is part of our natural way.
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^what about animals riding bicycles?
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No other species uses transportation vehicles or uses computer's. If you look at humans our ability to adapt and change and create is part of our nature as beings. It is what truly makes us unique compared to others species. Our ingenuity is our gift. So maybe we can't turn like other animals through genetic means yet. We are the human race and to think that we can't evolve into safely doing genetic modification is insufferable. Others species evolve their body to compensate, we evolve our body because it is part of our natural way.

Like I said, I'm not gonna judge if being trans is right or wrong here, jus focus on the question of 'is it natural'. The fact is that, no, it isn't. This can be said for a lot of things that humans do, both good and bad. Animals don't usually wear pants and didn't invent the double-down either. The notion of something 'unnatural' being inherently bad or wrong is stupid. Just that, within the qualification of 'natural', the human version of trans-sexualism occupies roughly the same space as disco records and the Ford Pinto.
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yutterh posted...

We are the human race and to think that we can't evolve

Embracing delusions is pretty much the opposite of evolution.
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The people who do make the claim that to be transgender is unnatural are committing the appeal to nature fallacy. Although they may not come out and say "its unnatural, so its bad", that is very much what they are implying.
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FroMan posted...

The people who do make the claim that to be transgender is unnatural are committing the appeal to nature fallacy. Although they may not come out and say "its unnatural, so its bad", that is very much what they are implying.

You can call it unnatural without that being your argument against it. Jaffa cakes are unnatural but I love those.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

FroMan posted...

The people who do make the claim that to be transgender is unnatural are committing the appeal to nature fallacy. Although they may not come out and say "its unnatural, so its bad", that is very much what they are implying.

You can call it unnatural without that being your argument against it. Jaffa cakes are unnatural but I love those.

Just like organ transplants are totally unnatural. But they are a very good thing. Cars aren't natural. But they're pretty fucking awesome.
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Mutations deviate from what is standard across a species and they are all unnatural until they're bred into becoming normalized, whether it's blue eyes or lacking wisdom teeth. Anything that can be seen as detrimental to the survival of a species is objectively a problem. Things that improve chances of survival are positive, obviously, and those possessing these traits would thrive in nature and outbreed the rest. It's pretty basic. If something genetic is rare and only comes with downsides, how is that not unnatural?

I don't look down on anyone for things they can not control, but not everything is normal simply because there's a person somewhere that it applies to.
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who said it was unnatural?
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Unbridled9 posted...

No other species uses transportation vehicles or uses computer's. If you look at humans our ability to adapt and change and create is part of our nature as beings. It is what truly makes us unique compared to others species. Our ingenuity is our gift. So maybe we can't turn like other animals through genetic means yet. We are the human race and to think that we can't evolve into safely doing genetic modification is insufferable. Others species evolve their body to compensate, we evolve our body because it is part of our natural way.

Like I said, I'm not gonna judge if being trans is right or wrong here, jus focus on the question of 'is it natural'. The fact is that, no, it isn't. This can be said for a lot of things that humans do, both good and bad. Animals don't usually wear pants and didn't invent the double-down either. The notion of something 'unnatural' being inherently bad or wrong is stupid. Just that, within the qualification of 'natural', the human version of trans-sexualism occupies roughly the same space as disco records and the Ford Pinto.

I am also not arguing eif it is wron or right. Just tossimg in some food for thought on what is natural for a human. We can't hold our selves to what is natural just by going off of genetics or evolution over time. We have evolved in a unique way. Besides trans and genetic changes i am saying that our inventions and changes to our way of life is a special komd of evolution. The evolution of technology. Im basically trying to say that i feel technology is a natural evolution of man. Instead of growing armor like some animals, we make it. Indtead of having sharp claws like some animals, we make it. Our way of adapting is a unique and natural way for us.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

Mutations deviate from what is standard across a species and they are all unnatural until they're bred into becoming normalized, whether it's blue eyes or lacking wisdom teeth. Anything that can be seen as detrimental to the survival of a species is objectively a problem. Things that improve chances of survival are positive, obviously, and those possessing these traits would thrive in nature and outbreed the rest. It's pretty basic. If something genetic is rare and only comes with downsides, how is that not unnatural?

I don't look down on anyone for things they can not control, but not everything is normal simply because there's a person somewhere that it applies to.

Also this.
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ungubby posted...

who said it was unnatural?

It's a little unnatural that you may think you are talking to a man but they have vagina. Unnatural by the definition of the word. But I would not treat her any different.
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FroMan posted...

The people who do make the claim that to be transgender is unnatural are committing the appeal to nature fallacy. Although they may not come out and say "its unnatural, so its bad", that is very much what they are implying.

Uh...ya, no. Video games are unnatural and I love them.
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Although homosexual behavior exist in the animal world, it's very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities.

Geneticists, anthropologists, developmental psychologists, sociologists, endocrinologists, neuroscientists, medical researchers into gender, and twin study researchers are in broad agreement about the role of genetics in homosexuality. Genes don’t make you do it. There is no genetic determinism, and genetic influence at most is minor. Thus it's "unnatural."

Homosexuality ain't genetic at all, if it were, homosexuality wouldn't have existed as of now. It would cause it's own extinction over the ages, not to mention how strongly it contradicts the Darwinian natural selection theory. That plus the obvious fact that identical twins should supposedly share the homosexuality gene 100% of the time, this isn't true however... As there's no homosexuality gene to begin with.

And before anyone replying with: "Not everything that is biological is genetic. Sexual orientation is biological even though it is not the product of a single gene." (quoted from a homosexual supporter I last debated)
This is not logical at all. If homosexuality were biological without having any genes, I can easily say that me loving Anime and JRPGs is biological without any "otaku gene" being in there.

In short: homosexuals aren't born homosexuals, but they're made homosexuals when they grew up. And as Dr. Hamer conceded (The creator of the gay gene hoax himself), homosexuality is culturally transmitted, not inherited.

How you think of homosexuality ethically is another subject. I personally don't support homosexuality, but I don't "hate" on homosexuals nor treat them differently from any other just because they believe that they're supposed to be that way.

PrinceOfArabia posted...

Although homosexual behavior exist in the animal world, it's very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities.

Geneticists, anthropologists, developmental psychologists, sociologists, endocrinologists, neuroscientists, medical researchers into gender, and twin study researchers are in broad agreement about the role of genetics in homosexuality. Genes don’t make you do it. There is no genetic determinism, and genetic influence at most is minor. Thus it's "unnatural."

Homosexuality ain't genetic at all, if it were, homosexuality wouldn't have existed as of now. It would cause it's own extinction over the ages, not to mention how strongly it contradicts the Darwinian natural selection theory. That plus the obvious fact that identical twins should supposedly share the homosexuality gene 100% of the time, this isn't true however... As there's no homosexuality gene to begin with.

And before anyone replying with: "Not everything that is biological is genetic. Sexual orientation is biological even though it is not the product of a single gene." (quoted from a homosexual supporter I last debated)
This is not logical at all. If homosexuality were biological without having any genes, I can easily say that me loving Anime and JRPGs is biological without any "otaku gene" being in there.

In short: homosexuals aren't born homosexuals, but they're made homosexuals when they grew up. And as Dr. Hamer conceded (The creator of the gay gene hoax himself), homosexuality is culturally transmitted, not inherited.

How you think of homosexuality ethically is another subject. I personally don't support homosexuality, but I don't "hate" on homosexuals nor treat them differently from any other just because they believe that they're supposed to be that way.

Saw a lot of "homosexuality". It's not quit the same as saying I'm going to change my body and change my entire being.
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They shouldn't have to be "natural" for us to have respect for people doing things that don't hurt anyone else.
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OneTimeBen posted...

Saw a lot of "homosexuality". It's not quit the same as saying I'm going to change my body and change my entire being.

It's not hard to grasp that homosexuality not being genetic strongly hints at gender dysphoria not being genetic too.
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Arv is scared anyone willing to cut off their own balls you don't know what they are capable of
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PK_Spam posted...

They shouldn't have to be "natural" for us to have respect for people doing things that don't hurt anyone else.

The lack of respect is created when people act.
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PK_Spam posted...

They shouldn't have to be "natural" for us to have respect for people doing things that don't hurt anyone else.

Being tricked in to gay sex is pretty harmful and promoted in transgender circles.

There's also the argument that other people's anxiety doesn't harm you, so should we do nothing to look for a cure if we're not personally affected? Pro-trans is like pro-ana, promoting progression and social acceptance of degenerative afflictions (gender dysphoria and anorexia respectively), and those who care about the well-being of others cannot allow this behaviour to propagate.
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OneTimeBen posted...

PK_Spam posted...

They shouldn't have to be "natural" for us to have respect for people doing things that don't hurt anyone else.

The lack of respect is created when people act.

Ah yes, that Judy from down the street decided her name was Jared and that she will dress and act appropriately.

That just grinds my gears!!! How can I respect someone minding their own business and making themselves happy? What if my children get the wrong idea and think they can do whatever they want with their bodies after they turn 18?!
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yutterh posted...

When the animal kingdom itself has quite a few different animals that can change sex.

Wasn't aware humans were one of those animals.

PK_Spam posted...

What if my children get the wrong idea and think they can do whatever they want with their bodies after they turn 18?!

You can't though, there's lots of regulations on what you can and can't do with your own body (cite: health and safety laws).
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

PK_Spam posted...

What if my children get the wrong idea and think they can do whatever they want with their bodies after they turn 18?!

You can't though, there's lots of regulations on what you can and can't do with your own body (cite: health and safety laws).

Those pesky health and safety laws. Maybe those surgeons don't want to operate on you to change your sex. And have a compilation happen and watch you die. Because you wanted to be a boy.
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OneTimeBen posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

PK_Spam posted...

What if my children get the wrong idea and think they can do whatever they want with their bodies after they turn 18?!

You can't though, there's lots of regulations on what you can and can't do with your own body (cite: health and safety laws).

Those pesky health and safety laws. Maybe thay don't want to operate on you to change your sex. And have a compilation happen and watch you die. Because you wanted to ba a boy.

What is your point with this post? You seem lost.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

OneTimeBen posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

PK_Spam posted...

What if my children get the wrong idea and think they can do whatever they want with their bodies after they turn 18?!

You can't though, there's lots of regulations on what you can and can't do with your own body (cite: health and safety laws).

Those pesky health and safety laws. Maybe thay don't want to operate on you to change your sex. And have a compilation happen and watch you die. Because you wanted to ba a boy.

What is your point with this post? You seem lost.

What was the point citing health and safety laws? That there must be an obstacle?
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Well given the fact that people do need help to become the opposite sex it's not natural in the strictest form of the word, but that doesn't make it wrong and we humans do a lot of things, good and bad that aren't natural. It's kinda our thing. It's only wrong to be transsexual to others, because some people are nosy, bigoted control freaks.
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Lil_Bit83 posted...

Because some people are nosy, bigoted control freaks.

You do need many highly educated individuals to complete this. "Willing to do this"
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OneTimeBen posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...

Because some people are nosy, bigoted control freaks.

You do need many highly educated individuals to complete this.

To complete what?

Some people are just assholes who choose to forcibly stick their nose where it's not wanted and discriminate. That doesn't take highly educated people to investigate. It just takes simple observation of my fellow human beings.
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Lil_Bit83 posted...

OneTimeBen posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...

Because some people are nosy, bigoted control freaks.

You do need many highly educated individuals to complete this.

To complete what?

Some people are just assholes who choose to forcibly stick their nose where it's not wanted and discriminate. That doesn't take highly educated people to investigate. It just takes simple observation of my fellow human beings.

How many of those highly educated surgeons would rather be somewhere else then changing a persons sex? That is totally unnatural to a medicial doctor.
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So when do I get a horse dick?
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OneTimeBen posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...

OneTimeBen posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...

Because some people are nosy, bigoted control freaks.

You do need many highly educated individuals to complete this.

To complete what?

Some people are just assholes who choose to forcibly stick their nose where it's not wanted and discriminate. That doesn't take highly educated people to investigate. It just takes simple observation of my fellow human beings.

How many of those highly educated surgeons would rather be somewhere else then changing a persons sex? That is totally unnatural to a medicial doctor.

Seeing that most of them got the chance of saying no doing it in the first place...
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I lol'd at "tricked into gay sex".

First of all, you are no gay for being attracted to the feminity of trans women.

Second of all, trans people aren't trying to trick you. This belief arises from poor media representation that spent decades villanizing trans women and erasing trans men.

Seriously, think of a movie of show (not Orange is the new black or Shameless) with a trans person. I bet they are either a sex worker, an antagonist, or portrayed as a complete joke. Some of you have been brainwashed into believing these media tropes are accurate. Which unfortunate, because they cause a lot of violence to trans people.