Board 8 > I do not support gay rights

(+) Yeah! (+)

That's actually a lie, I just wanted to lure people into this topic to let you all know that Jean Grey and Cyclops are the worst Marvel characters ever created.
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No real hate for Jean Grey, Cyclops on the other hand I agree with you on.
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So what is your take on X Men 3
Cyclops died there but the movie was about Jean
Dilemma
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Jean Grey enables Cyclops and therefore in many ways she's worse than he is.
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I agree with this.

the marvel stuff, not the gay stuff
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Nanis23 posted...

So what is your take on X Men 3
Cyclops died there but the movie was about Jean
Dilemma

There are a great many other things wrong with that movie. Like the complete waste of Multiple Man, the debut of about 30 mutants who do nothing, how the movie takes back the death of Professor X making it meaningless, how suddenly mutant abilities are curable when Stryker says in X2 that being a mutant can't be cured... and the acting. God, the acting is terrible.
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I do not support gay rights.


I AM GAY RIGHTS
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Cyclops is indeed terrible and him dying in X3 was one of the only redeeming things about the movie
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Cyclops is awesome fuck you guys.
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Screw you guys Cyclops is one of the very few X-men I like
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TheRock1525 posted...

Cyclops is awesome fuck you guys.

Lich_Sandro posted...

Screw you guys Cyclops is one of the very few X-men I like

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If you support Cyclops, you are anti-gay.
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Agreed.
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Also Jean Grey is racist.
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I don't actually know much about either character, why are they so bad?
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NBIceman posted...

I don't actually know much about either character, why are they so bad?

Jean Grey is a wishy-washy joke who is constantly being resurrected for the "definitive" take on the character, and it always results in the character coming off as even more mentally unbalanced and, quite frankly, stupid. And she always has answers for problems. She makes comics less fun. She's a fun-sucker.

Cyclops has a big ol' chip on his shoulder and he constantly prevents characters from breaking out into stardom as he hogs spotlight being a boring, generic, badly written character "with conflict" which is actually just code for "he'll be edgy now and people will like him!" This does not work that well since titles with Cyclops actually decline in sales consistently over time now. He was outdated in the 80s. Now he's a relic.
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Morph is cool
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RPGlord95 posted...

Morph is cool

This is objectively correct.
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Is there some form of correlation between Cyclops, Jean Gray, and Gay Rights?
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eaedwards6400 posted...

Is there some form of correlation between Cyclops, Jean Gray, and Gay Rights?

Yes.
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Movie Cyclops isn't very good.

Comics Cyclops in most cases is.
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VeryInsane posted...

Comics Cyclops in most cases is.

Not since 1995-ish.
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To be fair you could make the case that X-Men peaked then
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VeryInsane posted...

To be fair you could make the case that X-Men peaked then

I would make the case that Age of Apocalypse was the last good X-Men story aside from Morrison's run!
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You don't support Grey rights?
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Why do people like Cyclops?
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Cyclops as a concept is excellent. The problem is he doesn't work in comics. 'Serious leader who has to make the calls that can change or end lives' is an immediately compelling hook, especially if you delve into how actions and decisions have consequences and no amount of superpowers can make things consequence-free. It's a thing everybody has to face eventually in life and a perpetual struggle we deal with, trying to live with what we've done. But comics never go for actually in-depth explorations of this AND the fact the status quo is so unbreakable makes it so you don't have credit with the audience that yes, these decisions mean something. It's a shame, really. Jean Grey is a zero whose only plus is being a hot redhead lol.
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Eddv posted...

Why do people like Cyclops?

See above. As I've grown up and taken on more responsibilities, I've realized I like gung-ho mavericks who punch problems away much less than leaders who introduce lasting changes to the world and aren't ad-hoc justified by the author for their use of violence by facing guilt-free 'bad guys'. Cyclops tends to have that humane greyness and responsibility when done well, even if a poor execution makes him a boring edgelord.
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Yeah ok i can see that.

Like i feel like thats why the show kinda got it right in that wolverine was always challenging his authority.

Like if he screwed up he might not be leader for long and people might die

Except no one important dies in comics and cyclops is too iconic as leader to not be leader for long.
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wow this topic somehow managed to be even worse than the title would have led me to believe

Eddv posted...

Yeah ok i can see that.

Like i feel like thats why the show kinda got it right in that wolverine was always challenging his authority.

Like if he screwed up he might not be leader for long and people might die

Except no one important dies in comics and cyclops is too iconic as leader to not be leader for long.

Exactly. I feel like if you wrote an X-Men novel with Cyclops as the main character that could easily generate a 'definitive' portrayal of him in the hands of a good writer. But for him to work deaths and injuries have to stick, time has to flow forward, and editorial mandate and the revolving door of writers can't clip a writer's wings.
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This is actually the reason Legion of Superheroes is the superior teenagers with superpowers team.

They have regular elections that reflect how leaders have done..


Mon-El, Timber Wolf, Cosmic Boy, Braniac V theu have all has turns at the helm and have been shown to have different strengths and weaknesses as leader

EDIT: Its also a reason your classic New Teen Titans had for being better than Uncanny X Men. Who would willingly choose Cyclops over Dick Grayson.
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Edd and Kanz definitely hit the biggest problems with an X-Men title. Nothing ever matters in X-Men comics. If there were more long runs that were considered sacrosanct in comics, that would be nice. As it is, we get 1900 different definitive takes on Cyclops, all of which contribute slowly over time to making Cyclops look like this completely irrational and rather poor leader.
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Eddv posted...

This is actually the reason Legion of Superheroes is the superior teenagers with superpowers team.

They have regular elections that reflect how leaders have done..


Mon-El, Timber Wolf, Cosmic Boy, Braniac V theu have all has turns at the helm and have been shown to have different strengths and weaknesses as leader

The Legion is truly a superior team. Hell, Polar Boy had a short run as leader which was pretty great. The original unbroken run of Legion from the beginning until 1994 was a phenomenally consist tale where the few deaths that happened did actually matter.

Then Zero Hour. Lol.
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Theres still some solid stuff after Zero Hour since Levitz gave that title so much stability when he and Giffen were at the helm.

New 52 completely murdered his momentum and he was never given a consistent artist and now here we are in a world with no Legion.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

But comics never go for actually in-depth explorations of this AND the fact the status quo is so unbreakable makes it so you don't have credit with the audience that yes, these decisions mean something.

This is my reason for asking "why do people like comics"
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Oh, I was specifically hating on Earth-198 Legion. They took forever to find a voice and when they did it was immediately torpedoed. There were so many good, wasted concepts in that era.

When Johns brought back the OG team, I was all for it, and I greatly enjoyed the return of the team to a regular title for the, like, 10 months before New52. And, by the way, fuck DC for ruining that team again.
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Yeah Earth Boy....what a fucking great story that was.
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pjbasis posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

But comics never go for actually in-depth explorations of this AND the fact the status quo is so unbreakable makes it so you don't have credit with the audience that yes, these decisions mean something.

This is my reason for asking "why do people like comics"

Because not all comics are Marvel Comics. You have your Starman, Sandman, Fables, Transmetropolitan, The Wicked and the Divine, Preacher, Hellboy, Y: The Last Man, Planetary, Authority, Top 10, Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Zenith, Chew, Locke and Key, Hellblazer, Saga, Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Spectre, Unwritten, DMZ, Nextwave, etc., etc. too.
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Eddv posted...

Yeah Earth Boy....what a fucking great story that was.

Earth Boy was super-minor in the Levitz run.
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Are we thinking of the same story? The one where the dudes all xenophobic about aliens and then ends up on the team and all that?
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Eddv posted...

Are we thinking of the same story? The one where the dudes all xenophobic about aliens and then ends up on the team and all that?

That's just the Action Comics storyline though. I'm thinking of the run that starts in Adventure.
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pjbasis posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

But comics never go for actually in-depth explorations of this AND the fact the status quo is so unbreakable makes it so you don't have credit with the audience that yes, these decisions mean something.

This is my reason for asking "why do people like comics"

When you say "Make mine Marvel" what youre really saying is "Tell me a short story over the course of a year and then pretend it never happened" .

Of course with rebirth DC is getting to be much the samw.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

pjbasis posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

But comics never go for actually in-depth explorations of this AND the fact the status quo is so unbreakable makes it so you don't have credit with the audience that yes, these decisions mean something.

This is my reason for asking "why do people like comics"

Because not all comics are Marvel Comics. You have your Starman, Sandman, Fables, Transmetropolitan, The Wicked and the Divine, Preacher, Hellboy, Y: The Last Man, Planetary, Authority, Top 10, Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Zenith, Chew, Locke and Key, Hellblazer, Saga, Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Spectre, Unwritten, DMZ, Nextwave, etc., etc. too.

I'm a filthy casual. I only heard of the ones made into movies.
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Also are any of those long-running? Short complete stories are good, but as dirty manga enthusiast I still like my long serialized epics. I just want them to feel like they have concrete beginnings and ends with a single creative vision.
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pjbasis posted...

Also are any of those long-running? Short complete stories are good, but as dirty manga enthusiast I still like my long serialized epics. I just want them to feel like they have concrete beginnings and ends with a single creative vision.

Starman has about 90 total issues over 7 years. Sandman was 75 issues over 7 years. Hellboy has been going for about 20 years with the same creator. Hellblazer was well over 200 issues over 20 years.
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Cool.

I'll keep them in mind when I decide I want to try something out. How's Walking Dead? I like the tv show, and it's got this manga-to-anime relationship that makes me interested in reading, and it's wayyyy past the show from what I saw.
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pjbasis posted...

Cool.

I'll keep them in mind when I decide I want to try something out. How's Walking Dead? I like the tv show, and it's got this manga-to-anime relationship that makes me interested in reading, and it's wayyyy past the show from what I saw.

It's pretty far past the show. Not as far past as it used to be. I used to enjoy it greatly but over time I just got tired of it. I read it in chunks from time to time.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

That's actually a lie, I just wanted to lure people into this topic to let you all know that Jean Grey and Cyclops are the worst Marvel characters ever created.

I've never really cared for either of them, so I approve of this topic.
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Cyclops was used as a writer's mouthpiece in a storyline that undid Beast being gay.

This isn't why I dislike him - I dislike him because he's a massive jerk no matter what adaptation he's in.

But still, it's rather telling that when a writer has a chip on his shoulder, he uses Cyclops as his mouthpiece.
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