Board 8 > Imagine you are a newly born pig.

(+) Yeah! (+)

LameJokeAlt posted...
Lettuce and tomato are not animals.

True but they are alive and have wants and needs just like the tasty pig.

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Don't mock me.

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Save the animals, go vegan.
I am a proud female furry American. http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/696/ntisunitedwskn5.gif

Well you did wish a violent death upon me and every other meat eater earlier.

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An eye for an eye.

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Save the animals, go vegan.
I am a proud female furry American. http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/696/ntisunitedwskn5.gif

But eyes are all slimy! How could you stand eating them?

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

LameJokeAlt posted...
An eye for an eye.

Seems a bit hypocritical telling me I can't eat bacon but it is ok for bacon to eat me.

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lordloki12 posted...
LameJokeAlt posted...
An eye for an eye.

Seems a bit hypocritical telling me I can't eat bacon but it is ok for bacon to eat me.

Well, perhaps LJA is doing you a favor by this, because if Bacon ate people, then it would BE people if you truly are what you eat. Therefore, eating bacon would be cannibalism and that is horrible!

Although, I suppose if people it bacon, people are bacon and you can then eat people without problem...

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

Can I wish death upon LJA and all her obnoxious, radical vegan PETA counterparts, for wishing death upon normal people? Eye for an eye, after all, and I wouldn't be killing an animal in their eyes.

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Captain Tracy Mombaro and Agent Mirasuke Inhara: Two of the toughest, hottest furrs you'll ever meet.

LameJokeAlt posted...
Don't mock me.

lol LameJokeAlt saying "Don't mock me." Being mocked is your only purpose on the board. That's like a farm animal saying "Don't eat me or consume my eggs/milk" or something!

Wait a minute... I think I just accidentally tripped over an irony and fell face first into "explains everything"

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RIP Caelus, 8/1/01-2/28/11
The old account had to be retired :D

Humans > animals.

So **** 'em.

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I ****ing love to cuddle.
I'm being oppressed!

From: PurpleMonkDish | #004
a holiday dinner, hot dogs, pork chops, or some other meat

Started drooling here, couldn't read the rest.

me too...

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"Different tempo ha ha ha, dearly beloved we are all gathered here now..." - Mike Love

I do not know how your sentience affects whether you can accept pain. There is no proof that you can feel pain that I can see. You could just be no different from a machine. Therefore, I should be able to eat you.

This is true: if you don't value human life, then you're free to try and eat me, much like since I don't value animal life, I eat animals. You'll be facing jail time, however, since more people agree with me!

this is where my rape analogy is useful again. I don't have to be worried about something happening to me to realize that it would suck. I don't want to be raped. I don't want to be eaten. I don't want my throat slit. I won't do it to anything else!

But your reasoning falls apart. I'm a tall, fairly strong guy, so if I applied your reasoning about animals to rape, it'd look something like this: "I don't rape girls because I wouldn't want to be raped!" Ridiculous- I run no realistic chance of getting raped. I don't rape women because I care about women and the suffering of people in general, not because of some fringe possibility that I get raped too.

They don't have to be expensive, though. Like I said, if people would feed people instead of feeding cows to feed people, we would be feeding more people.

Yeah, this is simply false. The feed needed to raise cattle is much less than the pounds upon pounds of meet you get- not to mention milk and other animal products. It's a simple inductive claim: if raising animals provided a negative net food result, then we wouldn't have raised animals in the first place.

I'm bored. I am going to go and kill someone on the street that nobody cares about, and who doesn't really have much of a desire to live. His or her suffering might be less than the pleasure derived from me killing him or her. Does this make it moral?

I wouldn't say so; then again, I value human life. If you don't particularly care about homeless people (or jail time), then there's nothing stopping you.

At this moment, my body is killing lots of harmful bacteria, and that is required for me to live. Not all life is worth the same to me. My life is more valuable to me than yours.

Glad you recognize this.

Still, I wouldn't kill and eat you if there's some other way to nourish myself. It is the same thing with animals. I have the ability to eat plants rather than animals, so I do. If I were in some situation where I had to eat animals or nothing at all, I would eat animals. If I were in a situation where I had to eat you or die, I would eat you.

Alright, so *why not*? You've already established that not all life is worth the same; where do you draw the line? I personally draw a clear line between people and animals- what about you?

There is no hope for me to convince you of anything.

I'm sorry if my consistency is frustrating you!

The same thing would happen if I ate nothing but celery for months.

So I'm not sure if you're trying to demonstrate your ignorance, or anything, but cannibalistic tribes don't only eat people.

Vegetarian diets are cheaper, at least in my experience.

Not if you consider the amount of time you need to invest!

Why are you guys even still arguing. It's a losing argument on both sides.

Uh, what? I'm pretty sure my side is winning!

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBpfwpOPXNc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
I watch Planet Chasers Starlight Excellent all day, every day.

I was hoping this would be a CYOA.

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I chose poorly. Black Turtle chose wisely.

LameJokeAlt posted...
An eye for an eye.

an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

a lot of people buy meat free-range because of the exact ethical concerns you raise.

don't be preachy. it's annoying.

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Black Turtle shoots the lights out

You troll on Board 8 advertising yourself as a lame joke alt.

And you have been doing this for years.

LITERALLY YEARS.

I've been off reshaping my life and identity, and I come back and you are still doing this.

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~ Team Tilde, director

But your reasoning falls apart. I'm a tall, fairly strong guy, so if I applied your reasoning about animals to rape, it'd look something like this: "I don't rape girls because I wouldn't want to be raped!" Ridiculous- I run no realistic chance of getting raped. I don't rape women because I care about women and the suffering of people in general, not because of some fringe possibility that I get raped too.

it's not about a fringe possibility of being raped, or a fear of karma. it's a realization that people besides me are living creatures and can feel pain/have desires/whatever. most people call that empathy. you twisted my post around quite a bit there, it's pretty hard to read it that way.

an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

I've always liked "an eye for an eye teaches the other guy not to mess with your eye"

LameJokeAlt topic

150+ posts

What the hell is wrong with you people?

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Ginhyun
'Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run

We got into a healthy debate on whether God thought it was cool for us to eat our babies.

I for one think it was a productive use of time.

I also think that was a very unfortunate typo.

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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE]
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Can I wish death upon LJA and all her obnoxious, radical vegan PETA counterparts, for wishing death upon normal people?

I am not wishing death on anyone. All of you interpreted it that way. How about if a meat eater dies from some natural cause, and is then fed to lions? Is that wishing death on that person? No, it is wishing for a particular type of disposal for the body.

This is true:

Glad you agree.

Yeah, this is simply false. The feed needed to raise cattle is much less than the pounds upon pounds of meet you get- not to mention milk and other animal products. It's a simple inductive claim: if raising animals provided a negative net food result, then we wouldn't have raised animals in the first place.

I hope you are joking. This post seems to defy many ideas common in biology and simple physics.

First, let's discuss why we raise animals for food. It's because, historically, we needed to eat animals to survive. It's why we are omnivores. I am not denying that eating animals is an important part of why we have survived as a species. Now, it is not really needed as much with modern agriculture. So, why keep them? Perceived nutritional value. I am not going to deny that there are nutritional benefits from meat, milk, eggs, and other products. But I will say that those nutrients can now be attained from other resources. Farm animals are now an artifact of the past in our human history. We continue to use farm animals for food sources because people like the taste, or they don't want to get nutrients from other sources.

However, meat is inherently more expensive to produce when it comes to the amount of plants used than it is for people to just eat those plants. Think of it like this.

A cow is impregnated, and is going to give birth to a calf. That cow will need to eat a lot of food to nourish that calf and itself, right? It will need to do so for months. Then, it gives birth. Awesome, you now have a calf. Still, it needs some type of food, milk initially. That requires even more feed for the mother. When the calf is old enough, it can eat feed on its own. It needs a lot of it to live and grow, right? Even if it is confined in a cage and cannot exercise, it still burns energy that requires feed. Not all feed is used to add meat to the cow. Need I remind you that cows do not absorb everything they eat and that they need to poop?

All in all, you are talking thousands of pounds of feed to raise the cow for slaughter. How much meat will it give? A lot, Google tells me around 700 pounds. Cows are larger animals than we are, so they need to eat a lot more. If Yahoo Answers is to be trusted, it takes 12 pounds of feed to get one pound of beef. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080905183919AAkuN3T

Now, here's a question for you from a physics angle, rather than a biology one. As you should know, matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. How do you explain a cow having more meat in pounds than what you give it in feed?

I wouldn't say so; then again, I value human life. If you don't particularly care about homeless people (or jail time), then there's nothing stopping you.

How about if someone goes and throws a bunch of newborn kittens off a building for fun? If that person feels like they enjoyed it more than the animals that suffered to bring that enjoyment, is it then moral?

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Save the animals, go vegan.
I am a proud female furry American. http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/696/ntisunitedwskn5.gif

Alright, so *why not*? You've already established that not all life is worth the same; where do you draw the line? I personally draw a clear line between people and animals- what about you?

You should consciously make every effort you can to reduce the suffering of others, whether it is humans or animals. Plants cannot feel pain, and do not suffer when you eat them. In fact, there is a reason why many plants have seeds in places where animals will try to eat the plants. The plants need animals to eat parts of it, so the seeds can be transported elsewhere so the plant's offspring can thrive somewhere else. Now, what benefit would eating an animal have? It's not a positive benefit or even a neutral benefit to an animal like it is to a plant. It results in death.

So I'm not sure if you're trying to demonstrate your ignorance, or anything, but cannibalistic tribes don't only eat people.

They don't have to. Too much of anything is bad. They should have eaten fewer members of their tribe. They should have had a more balanced diet and indulge in human flesh less often.

You troll on Board 8 advertising yourself as a lame joke alt.

And you have been doing this for years.

LITERALLY YEARS.

I've been off reshaping my life and identity, and I come back and you are still doing this.

So what are you doing back on this board, reshaped one?

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Save the animals, go vegan.
I am a proud female furry American. http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/696/ntisunitedwskn5.gif

it's not about a fringe possibility of being raped, or a fear of karma. it's a realization that people besides me are living creatures and can feel pain/have desires/whatever. most people call that empathy.

Having an empathetic impulse is not the same as having a moral obligation. One is just a blind feeling, the other a rational justification for the "rightness" of a behavior. Still waiting for a reason why animals deserve special treatment just because they "feel pain."

Glad you agree.

Ha! There was more to my point than that, but I like your style.

Farm animals are now an artifact of the past in our human history. We continue to use farm animals for food sources because people like the taste, or they don't want to get nutrients from other sources.

You didn't answer my original question: if a pound of meats is more costly to produce than a pound of plants, why did we become omnivores in the first place? The answer your argument seems to miss is that has a ton more fat, protein, etc. for cheap compared to plants, things that are essential to survive (especially short-term, which is why cavemen ancestors loved animal bone marrow); most importantly, meat has more calories!

In other words, a vegetarian diet is more time-consuming, more costly, is disproportionately difficult for the lower classes, and removes a tremendous pleasure- eating meat- from the human pallette.

Now, here's a question for you from a physics angle, rather than a biology one. As you should know, matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. How do you explain a cow having more meat in pounds than what you give it in feed?

Simple: plants have plenty of things we don't need short-ten, whereas meat is rich in fats and calories. Animal flesh gives people instant access to lots of key nutrients that plants don't, at least not without a ton of time and disposable income to spare.

How about if someone goes and throws a bunch of newborn kittens off a building for fun? If that person feels like they enjoyed it more than the animals that suffered to bring that enjoyment, is it then moral?

I already mentioned this: it's in society's best interest to curb this type of behavior, as it leads to violent acts against other people more often tha not. But no, nothing is "intrinsically" immoral with killing cats- or anything, for that matter. In case you couldn't tell, I'm a moral relativist who values human life first. If you want to keep the morality argument going, give me a basis for the morality of saving animals beyon emotional appeals.

You should consciously make every effort you can to reduce the suffering of others, whether it is humans or animals.

Typical utilitarian argument, but unfortunately I am not a utilitarian, nor do I see any reason to become one. Why should I concern myself with "total pain/pleasure"? Why not just human pain/pleasure?

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBpfwpOPXNc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
I watch Planet Chasers Starlight Excellent all day, every day.

Ry Senkari posted...
I was hoping this would be a CYOA.

Me too, dammit.

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http://www.celebrityclubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Sort_of_want.jpg

So vegetarians, what say you to the empirically proven, peer-reviewed work of Jagadish Chandra Bose, who in the early 1900s discovered that plants do, in fact, respond to external stimuli and show similar responses to being wounded as animals? I'm just saying, plants feel pain just like animals do and you should feel like a jerk for eating them.

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chumbucketeer fills cups like double-Ds.
http://img.imgcake.com/chumpngej.png - Art by BIGPUN9999

From: Ry Senkari | #163
I was hoping this would be a CYOA.

From: XIII_rocks | #172
Me too, dammit.

I'm on it. Give me a second!

EDIT: Got it.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/59665524

Let's stop using aloe because we are killing poor little plants

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My Japanese alter-ego.
Hey all this is Bartz btw.

So vegetarians, what say you to the empirically proven, peer-reviewed work of Jagadish Chandra Bose, who in the early 1900s discovered that plants do, in fact, respond to external stimuli and show similar responses to being wounded as animals? I'm just saying, plants feel pain just like animals do and you should feel like a jerk for eating them.

Curious about this. Aversion/inclination is found even in single-celled amoeba, but the difference between that and pain/pleasure is sentience, no? How does the research on plants account for that?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBpfwpOPXNc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
I watch Planet Chasers Starlight Excellent all day, every day.

This topic has made me hungry and has inspired me to go make a ham sandwich.

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*Lives in the Future*

I dunno man, it's been ages since I've read him up. It very well could simply be an aversion/inclination thing, though if my memory serves me correctly in some of the experiments the plants would shy away from people who had previously harmed them - specifically a case where a man burned a branch off of a bush and then two days later when he walked into the room with the bush completely unarmed the plant tried to get away from him as best it could.

On an unrelated subject, the best reasoning I've heard for being a vegetarian comes from a co-worker of mine who says that the reason he's gone veg is because he hates plants and wants to murder and devour as many of them as he can.

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chumbucketeer fills cups like double-Ds.
http://img.imgcake.com/chumpngej.png - Art by BIGPUN9999

@LameJokeAlt: You say you're moral, but you're a furry. I have the believe we should not like to have sex with non-humans. Furries are NOT fully human. And as such, if I was in charge of the world, I'd make yiff just as illegal as child porn and bestiality. Actually, I'd make all porn grounds for life imprisonment, humans are better than that.

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The official Big Eater of the Duodecim board.
*Takes a Luck Potion*

Mega, you're doing the same thing.

You have literally spent years of your life trolling this board.

YEARS.

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~ Team Tilde, director

[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

Years.

Of.

Your.

Life.

Trolling Board goddamn 8.

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~ Team Tilde, director

[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

From: MegaWentEvil | #183
At least I'm sexually ethical.

Sounds like a funk song title from the 60's

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My Japanese alter-ego.
Hey all this is Bartz btw.

And the f***ed up thing is, in all the years I've seen you do it, not a single person has bit or taken you seriously.

Even goddamn dogs figure out more quickly when to change tasks. Lab rats do.

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~ Team Tilde, director

Christ WVI, what's going on? It's all good man, relax.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBpfwpOPXNc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
I watch Planet Chasers Starlight Excellent all day, every day.

[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

It seems I've missed something amazing.

MWE Warned. An angel gets its wings, etc.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il-X-7d0pW4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This topic is the best topic...

aside from the CYOA.

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http://backloggery.com/shados
http://last.fm/user/ShadosNeko

FFDragon posted...
We got into a healthy debate on whether God thought it was cool for us to eat our babies.

I for one think it was a productive use of time.

I also think that was a very unfortunate typo.



That was pretty fun.

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Eff_Dee

plants show similar responses to being wounded as animals?

uh they don't? everything I've observed in life suggests that plans and animals act in ways that are not at all similar when damaged. animals and humans, however, much closer.

You didn't answer my original question: if a pound of meats is more costly to produce than a pound of plants, why did we become omnivores in the first place? The answer your argument seems to miss is that has a ton more fat, protein, etc. for cheap compared to plants, things that are essential to survive (especially short-term, which is why cavemen ancestors loved animal bone marrow); most importantly, meat has more calories!

Reread my post. I already said that meat has certain nutrients in it. Your point, again?

In other words, a vegetarian diet is more time-consuming, more costly, is disproportionately difficult for the lower classes, and removes a tremendous pleasure- eating meat- from the human pallette.

Time-consuming? How? To get certain nutrients, I can just pop a pill, which is faster than eating a steak.

Costly? Do you know how much meat costs? Meat is cheap, yes, but it can never be as cheap as the food that would normally go into a cow or whatever to produce that meat. When you hear people complain about food, what is it that they complain about? It's meat and dairy. They may complain about bread too, but mostly because the price for a loaf of bread is a common benchmark for food costs in general.

Lower classes can also eat plant foods. Why can't they? Before you say nutrition, many low class people are malnourished. They already can't have a proper diet. Not having meat won't really make that any worse.

Remember those people on YouTube that go around killing animals like kittens and puppies? They also had tremendous pleasure from it. Oh sure, you can say that that kind of behavior should be discouraged. But can't you say the same about how we treat animals in corporate farms? Watch Meet Your Meat before you debate me on this point any further.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm a moral relativist who values human life first.

Can I be a moral relativist, too? I value the lives of people with diets free of animal products more than those who eat animal products.

Typical utilitarian argument, but unfortunately I am not a utilitarian, nor do I see any reason to become one. Why should I concern myself with "total pain/pleasure"? Why not just human pain/pleasure?

I hate going back to this, but why should people in the past have cared about people seen as inferior beings? You know what I am talking about.

So vegetarians, what say you to the empirically proven, peer-reviewed work of Jagadish Chandra Bose, who in the early 1900s discovered that plants do, in fact, respond to external stimuli and show similar responses to being wounded as animals? I'm just saying, plants feel pain just like animals do and you should feel like a jerk for eating them.

Sure, you can try to use arguments like that. Right until you realize that by eating your cheeseburger, you have wounded many more plants than I have in an entire day of eating plants. Gotta factor in the plants needed to raise the cows that would make the beef and cheese in your burger. Don't forget the suffering that the multiple cows went through. One was slaughtered. The other was attached to a machine sucking it dry of milk. Meanwhile, some calf (or calves) were deprived of their mother's milk.

But nice try.

On an unrelated subject, the best reasoning I've heard for being a vegetarian comes from a co-worker of mine who says that the reason he's gone veg is because he hates plants and wants to murder and devour as many of them as he can.

And of course, this has to be a joke. If you really want to kill plants, eat lots of meat. Unless you think that raising animals for food does not require them to eat plants, that is.

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Save the animals, go vegan.
I am a proud female furry American. http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/696/ntisunitedwskn5.gif

animals and humans, however, much closer.

It should also be noted that humans are animals. Humans just have higher levels of intelligence, opposable thumbs, and other things that helped us in the evolutionary process.

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Save the animals, go vegan.
I am a proud female furry American. http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/696/ntisunitedwskn5.gif

This topic is still going?

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*Lives in the Future*

MWE has been warned. What should we do now?

A. Celebrate with hot dogs and beer
B. Celebrate with hamburgers and beer
C. Celebrate with chicken and beer
D. All of the above plus put it in
E. Celebrate by shooting a bunch of animals
F. All of the above

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RIP Caelus, 8/1/01-2/28/11
The old account had to be retired :D

They have corporate farms for guinea pigs? I didn't think the market for cui was that big.

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He died of cancer...which caused bullet wounds to appear on his body.
PFC: 0131 4016 5507

If wild carnivores were smart enough to breed animals and eat them, they sure would, too.

what are you guys doing? This topic is a CYOA now >_>

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RIP Caelus, 8/1/01-2/28/11
The old account had to be retired :D

G. Other

Hotdogs and Soda >_>

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Eff_Dee