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Topic	Do you frown upon people who vote third party?
joe40001 07/22/20 1:57:27 AM #58:	Notti posted... I'm not sure people do understand spoilers. (I'm sure this vid has been posted 100 times, but lets make it 101) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo I'm confused you are explaining this to me like I'm 12. It's pretty clear what "spoiler" votes are and they derive from 2 main assumptions: 1. The votes for a 3rd party will come almost exclusively from one party. 2. In a FPtP system, it is impossible for a 3rd party to ever win. Not sure why that makes 3rd party voting smarter. You can't know for sure how close the vote will be. If everyone does that, then the spoiler effect takes place and you get less than what you could have if both your first and second choice loses. No, if everyone does that then the 3rd party wins. If even a third of the people do that, the 3rd party wins. ... Being part of the 5% that loses means almost nothing. See this is where I think we are talking on a very low level. It means a huge amount. Firstly if a 3rd party got 5% in 2016 for one it would give them millions in FEC grants for 2020, secondly if 2 parties lose 5% of the vote the next cycle people will know "1. hey it's not pointless to vote 3rd party" and "2. The two parties need to do a hell of a lot better job fighting for those centrists" It's not a false binary, it's a realization that splitting your vote (in the current First-Past-The-Post voting system, see video) is self sabotaging. i want 3rd parties to thrive. They SHOULD matter. And I want people to make that choice intelligently. (they SHOULD matter, but don't. Should vs Is) But in the current system (let's assume a purple battleground state in the national US election) it is not a smart move. I wouldn't even call it brave. It's not self-sabotaging, it uses your vote to most effectively communicate. The only reason you believe that it's pointless is because of the narrative people push that it's pointless. You are promoting a self-fulfilling cynicism as wisdom. When it simply isn't. Turtle and Owl never needed to switch, they could've unified, they could've done a lot. It is the "throw your vote away" lie that entrenches the 2 party system. A system a HUGE majority are unhappy with. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/04/11/public-trust-in-government-1958-2019/ https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx If we didn't buy into the lie and just looked at Hillary and Trump and say "nope" and voted "anybody but Hillary or trump" by percentage that would win by a landslide. You claim to hate the 2 party system but you are promoting it's favorite lie. That "you don't have a choice". But any vote sends a message, and in a country where the approval of the government never hits 50% and can hit as low as 15% or worse, it is insanely clear that the majority are quite dissatisfied. It is factually untrue that a majority can't win in a democracy. Let's approach the question from a different angle: Let's assume literally what happened in the Simpsons happened. 2 Aliens came in, hell bent on taking over and oppressing humanity, they replaced the 2 candidates leading the 2 party system. They were the nominees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7NeRiNefO0 Who would you vote for? I'm asking sincerely. Because if your answer is anything but Kang or Kodos, you acknowledge that in dire enough circumstances 3rd partying voting is valid, and that in dire enough circumstances 3rd party voting is the only responsible thing to do. --- "joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9 <cite>joe40001 posted [p:942425778] in Do you fro... [t:78839759]...</cite> <quote>Notti posted... </cite> <quote>I'm not sure people do understand spoilers. (I'm sure this vid has been posted 100 times, but lets make it 101) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo</quote>I'm confused you are explaining this to me like I'm 12. It's pretty clear what "spoiler" votes are and they derive from 2 main assumptions: 1. The votes for a 3rd party will come almost exclusively from one party. 2. In a FPtP system, it is impossible for a 3rd party to ever win. <quote>Not sure why that makes 3rd party voting smarter. You can't know for sure how close the vote will be. If everyone does that, then the spoiler effect takes place and you get less than what you could have if both your first and second choice loses. </quote>No, if everyone does that then the 3rd party wins. If even a third of the people do that, the 3rd party wins. <quote>... Being part of the 5% that loses means almost nothing. </quote>See this is where I think we are talking on a very low level. It means a huge amount. Firstly if a 3rd party got 5% in 2016 for one it would give them millions in FEC grants for 2020, secondly if 2 parties lose 5% of the vote the next cycle people will know "1. hey it's not pointless to vote 3rd party" and "2. The two parties need to do a hell of a lot better job fighting for those centrists" <quote>It's not a false binary, it's a realization that splitting your vote (in the current First-Past-The-Post voting system, see video) is self sabotaging. i want 3rd parties to thrive. They SHOULD matter. And I want people to make that choice intelligently. (they SHOULD matter, but don't. Should vs Is) But in the current system (let's assume a purple battleground state in the national US election) it is not a smart move. I wouldn't even call it brave.</quote>It's not self-sabotaging, it uses your vote to most effectively communicate. The only reason you believe that it's pointless is because of the narrative people push that it's pointless. You are promoting a self-fulfilling cynicism as wisdom. When it simply isn't. Turtle and Owl never needed to switch, they could've unified, they could've done a lot. It is the "throw your vote away" lie that entrenches the 2 party system. A system a HUGE majority are unhappy with. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/04/11/public-trust-in-government-1958-2019/ https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx If we didn't buy into the lie and just looked at Hillary and Trump and say "nope" and voted "anybody but Hillary or trump" by percentage that would win by a landslide. You claim to hate the 2 party system but you are promoting it's favorite lie. That "you don't have a choice". But any vote sends a message, and in a country where the approval of the government never hits 50% and can hit as low as 15% or worse, it is insanely clear that the majority are quite dissatisfied. It is factually untrue that a majority can't win in a democracy. Let's approach the question from a different angle: Let's assume literally what happened in the Simpsons happened. 2 Aliens came in, hell bent on taking over and oppressing humanity, they replaced the 2 candidates leading the 2 party system. They were the nominees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7NeRiNefO0 Who would you vote for? I'm asking sincerely. Because if your answer is anything but Kang or Kodos, you acknowledge that in dire enough circumstances 3rd partying voting is valid, and that in dire enough circumstances 3rd party voting is the only responsible thing to do. --- "joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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