LogFAQs > #976784783

" Gaza is not under occupation "

• The land, sea and air borders is under lockdown for the past 20 years.
• The water, electricity and imports are controlled by Israel
• According to wikleaks leak, Israel calculates the calorific requirement of the gaza strip to keep gaza on the 'brink of collapse'
• Israel steals gaza's water and sells it back to them. They do this by building deep wells around the gazan border, sucking out the ground water from gaza. The result is that gaza's own tap water is undrinkable, contaminated by raw sewage and sea water. Many in gaza cannot afford to buy clean water. 25% of illnesses in gaza is caused by tap water. Gaza has constant cholera outbreaks as a result. https://climate-diplomacy.org/case-studies/israel-palestine-water-sharing-conflict

" Israel gave them Gaza in good faith, and look how that worked out for them "

The 2005 disengagement of gaza was based on demographic engineering. The core issue is that a democratic jewish state requires a majority jewish population. But there are more Muslims than Jews in the region. So Israel needs to expel muslims and draw it's borders around any community that is majority muslim. Palestinians are first and foremost a demographic threat.

The Israeli priminister Olmert put it quite eloquently:

"More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish state. The parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians."

Israel regards palestinian integration and equal rights as an existential threat. This is also why palestinian enclaves in the west bank are isolated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

According to wikleaks leak, Israel calculates the calorific requirement of the gaza strip to keep gaza on the 'brink of collapse'.

" Palestinians are terrorist sympathisers. They voted for Hamas. "

• They are traumatized and desparate. Each one of them has witnessed things that would break anyone of us.
• They are taunted by the Israel government, who is openly starving them out of their land.
• All peaceful reosltuions are blocked by the UN veto
• They join Hamas because they need money. Hamas pays people $10 a day to dig tunnels. They risk their lives to dig tunnels to pay for food and water. They need to pay for water because Israel steals it and sells it back to them. I think if these people had some better source of employment, they would take it. Social Justice will not end terrorism completely. But creating alternatives to Terrorism will work to weaken it.

" Hamas uses human shields "
Hamas do not control the airspace. They cant just go set up in an open field somewhere. They have to hide to survive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMTuRM8d28o&t=70s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l78dOLxt6_g

" Palestinians should reject Hamas "

• Palestinians have no leverage, no power, and no legitimate route to solutions. You cannot require they give up their only weapons
• You cannot require they turn on each other as a precondition for peace talks
• You cannot require they deradicalise while they live in such crisis and desparation.
• Unarmed civilians cannot overcome an armed terrorist group. Not even America was able to defeat the Taliban for example.
• This is all an excuse. Stop stealing their water and land.

" Israel are 'minimising civilian casualties' "

If their strategy is to eradicate terrorism by bombing a city, then they are not minimising civilian casualties. You cannot bomb terrorism away, unless you kill everyone. Phoning sometimes with a bomb-warning rings pretty hollow in this context.

" So you think the attack on the 7th Oct was justified ?!!!??? "

The massacre on the 7th was absolutely disgusting. Everyone must be held accountable. Not just those who were directly involved, but also everyone who has been complicit in allowing this atrocity to occur.

Those who object to Israel are not justifying or glorifying terrorism. We are demanding FULL accountablility. Not just of Hamas, but of the governments who have repeatedly disregarded peace efforts. Netanyahu held peace in the palm of his hand, and he threw it away. He mocked it. He promised to bring 'fear and collapse' upon palestinians. He must be held accoutable also. So must the governments of the west who blocked every UN resolution.

" A peaceful Solution is impossible. "

Wrong. This is the dangerous lie we must overcome. We must remember that Olmert came very close to a deal in 2008, before crooked Netanyahu scrapped it. Many in Israel support a solution. Amongst Isreali voting citizens, 21% are Arab. Netanyahu clings to power with a fragile cooalition of fringe parties. Unite around a single candidate with a clear mandate for peace.
A 2-state solution is the answer. But it will not happen immediately. It will take decades to implement. Israel cannot open it's borders in the near-term. A major sticking point for Israel are their defence concerns. The west bank is geographically a nightmare to control. There is the worry that concessions will only allow militants to gain strength. Isreal must be re-assured of it's national security by the international community.
imo, the steps are:

• Ceasefire
• Netanyahu must go, and be replaced with a leader the palestinians could trust. Netanyahu's presence in office (and his crooked cronies) destroy trust
• Israel must first demonstrate good faith by the following measures
• Announce a halt to settlements, and a reformation of property laws which encourage Jews to sell up and leave the west-bank.
• Seek a neutral UN poeacekeeping force in the west bank
• Dismantle some acquifiers north of the gazan border. This would allow the gazan groundwater to recover so the tap water becomes drinkable.
• Allow some palestinian enclaves to connect.
• Scrap the graded ID system, which currently only allows palestinians to downgrade their residential status
• Reform the selective policing of sectarian violence
• Cool the rhetoric

And what does Israel get in return for this?:

• A reformation of the Hamas charter
• A change to public rhetoric
• A ceasefire
• Hostages back

To be clear, it is impossible to agree to this all at once. This is the end goal which would have to be implemented in a careful step-by-step manner. Peace is a process, not a single legal agreement. At each stage, each side must be very careful not to push beyond the limits of public opinion. Public opinion limits what each side can offer at each stage. Hamas cannot change their charter immediately, as the leader would be swiftly removed. Neither can the new Israel prime minister cannot annouce all those concessions immediately as he he wouldnt have the politcal support.