Lurker > NBIceman

Not sure if you have a favorite thing about me but I'll give it a shot!
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voltch posted...

I guess the main takeaway is that Jericho wasn't an undercover agent that would bring Omega to WWE for the rumble and Mania.

Wait, did people actually think this?
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Wouldn't be surprised if his contract goes all the way to 2020. It's been confirmed that the prior one only just now ended, which means it was for two years all along and the noise he made about being a free agent last year was a work. History could be repeating itself.
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KujikawaRising posted...

you guys do know I'm too lazy to host this and just wanted somebody else to take it, hence being so edgy, right?

I'm just being a caricature of myself since it's fun. Sorry if anyone was offended.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/341/503/397.jpg
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Those of y'all that watched and enjoyed Jericho/Omega last week, I can't recommend the newest Talk is Jericho enough. Omega's on as a guest and they go into a ton of detail about what led up to the match and a lot of what they did in it. Really great stuff.
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Tales of Berseria
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Sol
Spike
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Bishop
Faye
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Jet
Jubal Early
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Mega Mana posted...

needsmore keith lee and david starr

Starr was on my shortlist for Most Improved and Lee would have been a no-brainer for breakout star if that was a category.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

A lot of stuff was completely ignored.

Including the winners of the awards :(

Yeah, sorry. We've definitely hijacked the topic.

Appreciate all the work you did to put this together, Scarlet. Most of the categories had pretty reasonable winners I think.
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FFDragon posted...

NBIceman posted...

How can you be independent if you're owned by a major corporation?

now see this is a bad argument

see: ring of honor

Ring of Honor is also not an indy for that exact reason. They may not be major league, but there's a difference between "not major league" and "not an indy."

If MWC wants to argue NJPW isn't major league, he'd still be wrong, but at least he wouldn't be fighting against a literal definition.

NBIceman posted...

What does make you not an indy, then? Like, I'm looking at your list and I'm genuinely confused as to what criteria you're using.

This has been completely ignored, by the way.
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Remember that "indy" is short for "independent."

How can you be independent if you're owned by a major corporation?
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What does make you not an indy, then? Like, I'm looking at your list and I'm genuinely confused as to what criteria you're using.
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I should clarify that I'm not trying to discount Jericho's importance. The NJPW World subscriptions are more valuable than the attendance jump. But he wasn't responsible for the latter. Okada and Naito were.
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Jericho was working when he said that and I don't know who my god is supposed to be. Meltzer? Because a) he's wrong a lot when it comes to New Japan and b) I disagree with his opinions about wrestling more than I agree with him.
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You're actually delusional if you think Jericho sold more than a thousand tickets to WK. He sold a TON of NJPW World subscriptions, but he was a complete nonfactor for attendance.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Also any metric that gets ECW into the non-indie category gets NJPW into the non-indie category.

Silly. You're forgetting about the metric where ECW was in America.
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NJPW is owned by a major corporation, has a TV deal in Japan and America, and draws over 10k fans multiple times a year, including two days ago when they drew 45,000.

But you already know all that, you're just mad because grrrrrrr Japan.
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UInstinctVegeta posted...

NBIceman posted...

Omega's current Indy career

lol

Did he end up in AWA or WCW somehow? Cause I know he's not in WWE...

This is hilariously petty. NJPW isn't an indy and you know it.
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Omega's current Indy career

lol
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UInstinctVegeta posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Why does it matter that he likes Japanese wrestling? I like it too. I voted NJPW-related stuff in several categories.

Nothing against that...

Very much something against your entire ballot being what it was.

At that point in time you should just fly to Cali and such Dave Meltz...

I probably watched a greater variety of wrestling than Meltzer this year. Matter of fact, I'm positive of it.

I feel like that variety was pretty well represented in my ballot, really. Sure, NJPW dominated MOTY, Best Feud, and I guess Best Wrestler (even if my Ospreay vote was heavily based on work outside of Japan), and I'm not counting Best Theme Song because I can't imagine anyone actually cares about that much, but the rest was pretty damn spread out.
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This is the part where everybody posts their ballots and MWC gets mad at me for being a biased Japan smark, right?

Best Wrestler
1. Kazuchika Okada
2. Kenny Omega
3. Will Ospreay

Best Match
1. Okada/Shibata @ Sakura Genesis
2. Okada/Omega @ Wrestle Kingdom 11
3. Okada/Omega @ Dominion

Best Event
1. Wrestle Kingdom 11
2. AAW Jim Lynam Memorial Tournament
3. PWG Battle of Los Angeles

Best Feud
1. Okada vs Omega
2. Ishii vs Omega
3. Naito vs Tanahashi

Best Promotion
1. NJPW
2. PWG
3. wXw

Best Tag Team
1. Young Bucks
2. Speed Muscle (Masato Yoshino and Naruki Doi)
3. South Pacific Power Trip (Travis Banks and T.K. Cooper)

Best Personality
1. Young Bucks
2. Hiromu Takahashi
3. Tetsuya Naito

Most Improved
1. Takehiro Yamamura
2. Jeff Cobb
3. Kenoh

Best New Character
1. Time Bomb Hiromu Takahashi
2. VerserK Eita
3. Roppongi 3K

Best Theme Song
1. Kazuchika Okada - "Rainmaker"
2. Nakamura - "Rising Sun"
3. Hirooki Goto - "Hadou"

Worst Wrestler
1. Jinder Mahal
2. KM
3. Yos***atsu

Most Embarassing Wrestling Fiasco
1. The various misadventures of Michael Elgin
2. Paige nude leaks
3. I dont know, the JBL bullying thing I guess
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Bishop
Faye
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Jet
Jubal
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Yeah, and I was the one who nominated Fight, X.
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Sol
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Bishop
Faye
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Jet
Jubal Early
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SmartMuffin posted...

Vegas' best player, whom you may remember as a third-liner on a Florida Panthers team that missed the playoffs :)

You also may remember him as a 30-goal scorer last year who's on pace to do it again while putting up a point per game.

Being Vegas' best player isn't the backhanded compliment you think it is. Anyone who's actually watching the games sees Marchessault is blossoming into an excellent hockey player. It's not his fault Florida didn't recognize his potential.
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I love both games, but they are kind of same-y. XD is definitely more polished and probably better overall, but it's also longer. There's some cool things about Colosseum, though, too. The fanbase has always seemed kind of split down the middle as to which is more preferred, at least to me.
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I've got a ton of thoughts on WK12 but if we're going to hold off on the last match for a couple days, I might as well hold off on everything. I wanna see what happens at New Year's Dash anyway. My one hot take today is that I might be the only person on the planet who actually liked Okada's new pants.

Also, this probably doesn't mean much, but I really appreciate everyone who tuned in to watch, whether it was for the whole thing or just a match or two. Don't know how many new fans were created or anything, but y'all tried something new and that's all I can ask for. Thanks for the support.
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pjbasis posted...

Man dragon roost is a town theme.

That one felt weird to me too, gotta say.
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Marchessault extension, 6 yr./30 mil.

Hell yes.
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Sol
Jet
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That got longer than I meant for it to, but I wanted to make sure I covered it all. And if I missed something and anyone has a question, just ask.
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- Okada won the title back a couple months later, after goading Naito into sending his stablemates backstage for the rematch. Without LIJ, Naito just wasn't good enough, though he did become just the second person to kick out of Okada's Rainmaker lariat.
- He then set his sights on the IC Title, not because he wants it, but because he hates it for stealing his WK main event years before. He does his best to destroy this physical belt as well, as a symbolic destruction of his old character that never accomplished anything.
- As the IC champ, Naito is challenged by Tanahashi, who angles for another fan vote. Naito rejects the idea in a petty fit of revenge, making sure Tana wouldn't headline this WK. And then, to complete his vengeance, he beats him.
- Now, one year later, Naito sits on the precipice of his career-defining moment. He's finally going to main event WK. He's beaten Tanahashi, who stole the last one from him. He beat Kenny Omega, the man who kept him from winning last year's G1, in this year's tournament. The only remaining obstacle is the nigh-unstoppable Kazuchika Okada. Naito won't have LIJ with him this time, either. He'll have to do it on his own. We'll see if he's truly grown enough.

Traditionally, the ace doesn't lose at Wrestle Kingdom. Tanahashi didn't lose until it was time for him to pass along the reigns to Okada. But Naito is peaking right now. He's the hottest he's ever been. If he wins, he could potentially become a draw at or beyond the level of even Okada. If he loses, he may never recover.

No matter what, though, the match is going to be amazing.
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IWGP Heavyweight Championship: Kazuchika Okada (c) vs Tetsuya Naito
If you're at all familiar with me, you probably know that Okada is by far my favorite wrestler in the world. His ability to have incredible matches with every single wrestler he faces is unparalleled, and he also just led NJPW to their second-most profitable year in history.

That said, he shouldn't win this match. It's Naito's time.

Really, the best thing you can do to prepare yourself for this match is to watch these three videos. They're exceptionally well done and cover pretty much all the most important info.



In case you don't want to, though, I'm gonna try to hit the cliffnotes. First, Okada's side.

- In 2012, Okada returned from excursion as a cocky young prick and won the title from Tanahashi in his second match back. This was a shocker, as Tana was on a legendary run at the time.
- Over the next few years, the two traded the title back and forth (only being interrupted a couple times by AJ Styles) in one of the greatest series of wrestling matches ever.
- At Wrestle Kingdom 9, in what looked to be Okada's crowning moment, he was instead reduced to his lowest. He left the ring actually sobbing as Tanahashi taunted him, saying he would never be the ace.
- During this period, Okada grew as a character, learning how to be a true champion, earning the respect of the crowd, and gaining a passion to lead New Japan into new prosperity.
- With his newfound attitude, he finally put his feud with Tana to rest at WK10, taking his deserved spot at the top of the company.
- Since then, except for a brief couple of months where he lost the belt to Naito, he's established himself as almost unbeatable. He bends but doesn't break. He always finds a way to win. His current reign sits at 563 days, and a not insignificant amount of people believe that, because of both the incredible match quality and the fact that he's sold out every big show he's headlined, it may be the greatest title run in wrestling history.

I could write pages and pages on Okada's character development, but that's enough for now. On to Naito.

- Naito spent several years as the NJPW equivalent of Roman Reigns. Pegged as a star but could never really get over the way the company wanted. Also, despite being ostensibly a babyface, he was kind of an asshole.
- The biggest disaster of this era of Naito was Wrestle Kingdom 8. He defeated Tanahashi in the G1 Climax to earn a title shot against Okada at WK8. However, the fans still didn't care. Tana was still the company ace at this point, and he was coming off what was to that point his best matches with Okada. Fans didn't like that Naito was getting in the way of that.
- Tana, in a last ditch effort to earn the main event spot at the Dome, challenged Shinsuke Nakamura to an IC title match and suggested that fans vote on which match they wanted to main event.
- The IC title match won the vote. As if that wasn't humiliating enough, Naito lost to Okada in a pretty forgettable match.
- After this, Naito floundered until he took a break and wrestled in Mexico for a while. While there, he aligned with a heel stable called Los Ingobernables. Upon returning to New Japan, he kept this heel attitude and became a massive dick, eventually forming his own Japan branch of Los Ingobernables.
- As the months wore on, something amazing happened. Naito got over. Fans identified with his "tranquilo," ungovernable attitude, relating to his feelings of being disrespected by the front office, his peers, and the collective public.
- In April 2016, Naito finally accomplished his dream of winning the IWGP HW championship, but he had to rely on a ton of LIJ interference to do so. However, he mistreated the physical belt, implying that he was bigger than the championship itself.
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IWGP Intercontinental Title: Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Jay White
I'm gonna take an Austin Aries-style victory lap here. Back in July, at the G1 Special shows in Long Beach, Jay White was booked in multi-man tags for both nights. He scored the pin in each of them. I said that was significant and signaled that the company had big plans for him. A couple of people in this topic argued with me, saying it didn't mean anything and that he was probably going to be a Jr. Heavyweight. Well, I was right, and y'all were wrong. This company doesn't do anything by accident.

First things first. Tanahashi claims he's got an injured leg. I don't doubt that's true to an extent, but he has a habit of exaggerating his bumps and bruises around this time every year to add a nice, built-in story to his matches. Expect Jay White to almost immediately go after the leg.

This is White's first match back after his excursion, and it's a sink-or-swim moment. He's facing the man who almost single-handedly saved NJPW from death, and he's doing it in front of a crowd that's several orders of magnitude bigger than the biggest crowd he's worked previously. He also doesn't look absolutely comfortable in his new gimmick yet, which I could best describe as "guy who may or may not shoot up a school one day."

Luckily, he's a great wrestler, and there aren't enough superlatives in the world to describe Tanahashi's ring prowess. This has all the makings of an absolutely awesome match, especially as it's gotten more personal. Tana doesn't seem to be taking the youngster that seriously, even though he's "injured" and has been laid out by White twice. This has turned White from an angry psychopath to an angry psychopath with something to prove.

I wouldn't be absolutely shocked if New Japan pulls the rug out from under us, though, in favor of making a star overnight. I could see White winning this match in about five minutes after relentlessly attacking the injured leg. That would be pretty much unprecedented, but it would potentially set up a fantastic story for the rest of the year.

Either way, this will be a spectacle.

IWGP US Heavyweight Championship: Kenny Omega (c) vs Chris Jericho, No Disqualification Match
This is what y'all came for. I don't imagine I have to say much more about it. You've seen the angles, presumably.

I'm interested to see how this match goes, though. Kenny's gimmick, for all intents and purposes, is that he's obsessed with having a MOTYC every time he wrestles. He claims, though, that this is going to be a straight fight, which means that we could see a very different Omega. Which would probably work to their favor anyway. I don't think Jericho could keep up with Omega's normal style of match at this point in his career, so going with a more story-based grudge is likely a good decision.

And make no mistake, Y2J can win this. I wouldn't bet on it, but it's a possibility.
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IWGP Heavyweight Tag Titles: Killer Elite Squad (c) vs Los Ingobernables de Japon (EVIL and SANADA)
EVIL and SANADA won the World Tag League to earn this match. They're both excellent singles wrestlers, but they haven't quite found their groove as a tag team yet. This is as good a spot as any for it to happen. The two guys that make up KES both spent time in WWE as David Hart Smith and Vance Archer, respectively. They're a high-floor, low-ceiling kind of team, which is probably perfect for this spot on the card. I don't have much to say here, but there's no reason this can't be a very good match.

NEVER Openweight Title, Hair vs Hair Match: Minoru Suzuki (c) vs Hirooki Goto
We're in the meat of the card now. These two actually feuded for a few months in 2017 already, where Suzuki won the title from Goto through various methods of underhanded chicanery, mostly involving interference from his Suzuki-Gun stable. Goto has been angling for a rematch for the last month or so, and Suzuki finally agreed with the condition that Goto puts his hair on the line. For whatever reason, he put his up as well, so there's no small amount of pride and personal beef here.

A lot of fans expect this to be a crappy match, and I get why. Goto's gimmick of being a guy who never quite reaches expectations has people kind of writing him off as a loser sometimes, and Suzuki's reign has been marred by really, really bad gimmick matches. Really, though, Goto is a fantastic wrestler, especially in big spots, and Suzuki has vowed that no interference will take place in this match. I expect this to surprise people and to be the first truly great match of the night. Suzuki proved in two matches with Okada last year that he can still bring it when he tries, and I believe he'll definitely be trying here. It will be violent and intense, because that's pretty much the name of the game for these two.

IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title: Marty Scurll (c) vs Will Ospreay vs Hiromu Takahashi vs KUSHIDA
This is gonna be wild. Ospreay and Takahashi have absolutely no regard for their bodies, KUSHIDA can get crazy with the best of them, and Scurll is a very smart wrestler who will know exactly how to fit in.

To set up this match to a satisfactory degree, I need to go back to 2016, because that's the year when KUSHIDA established himself as the "ace" of this division. He had a reign that lasted almost all year, elevating the title as much as himself in the process by having great matches and actually main eventing a smaller show or two. Two of his defenses were against Ospreay, which I'll come back to later.

Last year at Wrestle Kingdom 11, he was defeated by Takahashi, who was returning from excursion. Takahashi more or less dominated the match, and further cemented his spot as the new top dog when he again beat KUSHIDA in the rematch a few months later, this time in about two minutes. KUSHIDA would redeem himself, though. He won the Best of the Super Juniors by again defeating Ospreay (in a match I gave five stars) and finally overcame Takahashi at Dominion.

Which brings me to Ospreay. His story, not just in NJPW, but all over the world, is that he's an amazing wrestler who can just never win the big one. That is, until he finally beat KUSHIDA at King of Pro-Wrestling to capture the title. He was finally on top of his mountain. Unfortunately, his reign lasted less than a month, as Scurll took the title in controversial fashion with a roll-up. This is part of another ongoing worldwide story where Scurll always manages to find a way to outsmart Will.

Ospreay immediately demanded a rematch, claiming his shoulders were actually up. KUSHIDA stormed out and made the same claim, due to his never getting a rematch with Ospreay. Takahashi, after having been denied challenges in hilarious fashion for months, angrily did the same. Scurll, cocky to a fault, stated he'd be glad to beat all three at once. And so, here we are.
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So I don't know how many folks in here are planning on watching WK, and who among them care about anything beyond Omega/Jericho anyhow, but I figure I might as well do a preview post for anyone who's interested and knows little to nothing about NJPW.

First of all, here's a step-by-step guide to signing up for NJPW World.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/7nqds6/with_wrestle_kingdom_12_less_than_32_hours_away/

And here's a match-by-match breakdown:
Pre-Show Match: The New Japan Rumble
Think Royal Rumble except that superstars can also be eliminated by pinfall or submission. It's for the leftover guys that don't have a match on the show proper. It probably won't be good and there's not much reason to watch it.

IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Titles: Roppongi 3K (c) vs The Young Bucks
The simplified version of New Japan's method of developing young wrestlers is to essentially make them jobbers in mostly meaningless matches for a year or two so they can learn from the experienced wrestlers on the card, and then, when they're ready, they're sent on "excursion" somewhere else in the wrestling world. Yohei Komatsu and Sho Tanaka were two very highly regarded young boys who spent an inordinate amount of time at the bottom of New Japan's cards before their excursion to Mexico, and when they returned as Roppongi 3K, they made an immediate impact. They won these titles in their first match back and, shortly thereafter, steamrolled through the Super Jr. Tag Tournament.

Here, though, they'll face their toughest task yet in the Young Bucks, who have held the titles a record six times. If you've seen the Bucks elsewhere, you may or may not be rolling your eyes already, but don't worry. They tend to tone down the goofiness and wrestle much more seriously in NJPW, especially on big shows like Wrestle Kingdom. This will be very good at minimum with the potential to be great if it gets time.

NEVER Openweight 6-Man Tag Team Titles Gauntlet: Bullet Club (c) vs Taguchi Japan vs CHAOS vs Suzuki-Gun vs War Machine and Michael Elgin
I'm not gonna waste my time or yours trying to break this down. It will have bright spots when certain wrestlers are in the ring (namely Tomohiro Ishii of CHAOS, Zack Sabre Jr. of Suzuki-Gun, and Juice Robinson of Taguchi Japan), but for the most part, this is a get-everyone-on-the-card match that probably will drag.

Cody vs Kota Ibushi
Along with the previous match, this is the other that doesn't have much of a story behind it, but there's a little more than there was before since Cody lost the ROH Title. See, originally, this was an ROH title match, and now that it's a regular singles match, Kota has publicly questioned a couple of times why they're even bothering. This, obviously, has rubbed Cody the wrong way, and it's become something of a grudge match now.

I'd much rather see Ibushi doing something else, but if anyone besides Okada can pull a good match out of Cody, it's probably the Golden Star. I expect Ibushi to win this, so if Cody's in a bad mood and doesn't bring his A-game, this could get ugly, but if he has his working boots on, it also could end up being very good. The biggest obstacle to overcome will probably be the crowd, because no one in Japan gives a damn about Cody, but he's standing across the ring from one of the absolute best in the world so I'm not writing it off.
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70's
Band: Kansas
Song Title: Carry On Wayward Son
Youtube Link:

80's
Band: Savatage
Song Title: Gutter Ballet
Youtube Link:

90's
Band: Queen
Song Title: The Show Must Go On
Youtube Link:

00's
Band: Avantasia
Song Title: The Scarecrow
Youtube Link:

10's
Band: The Dear Hunter
Song Title: The Moon/Awake
Youtube Link:
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Bishop
Faye
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Might even be closer to 9 from when you asked. Show doesn't even start for another 5 from now and it's the second to last match on the card.
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Jam
Jubal Early
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Scaramouche (Samurai Jack)
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Posting to remind myself to do this when I'm at a computer tonight.
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ScareChan posted...

to be fair Joe definitely slacked off a lot at the end of his TNA run and I recall him struggling a bit in NXT. He may be reverting back to being good but its improved from where he was previously

That's a good point. I only saw bits and pieces of his NXT stuff but as I think about it, his brief return to ROH wasn't all that great either.
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Samoa Joe seems like an odd Most Improved vote considering he had an argument as the best wrestler in the world for part of his career.
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Jolteon
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