Lurker > Mal_Fet

UnfairRepresent posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

In the context of Mass Shootings, especially in an epididemic that is unique to one single nation. I strongly disagree.

I reject your notion that a correlation between America (arguably the greatest country in the world) and lower homicide/suicide rates than some other nations proves that gun-control doesn't work and wouldn't help stop mass shootings.

A correlation doesn't imply causation. Mass shootings in Australia were already rare before the gun ban, which means fewer mass shootings afterward is pretty statistically insignificant.

And by thew way, the homicide rate in Australia dropped at a slower rate than America's did in the time after their gun ban. Shall we take that to mean a gun ban will result in slower homicide rate decline? It's a correlation, after all.

I'd note every correlation but not view it as causation.

That's logic 101.

The key thing is I feel like you're ignoring that this is a problem that is literally unique to America purely because you feel that it reflects poorly on values that you like.

That's where the rest of the world comes in. Not on whether or not guns are good or bad or whether or not suicides rates will be in flux. But on the fact no one apart from the US has this problem where the population is in fear and knows that every few months or so some nut (who is always male) is going to massacre a bunch of kids for no good reason.

And the logic of "Maybe we should have efforts to make it hard for that nut to get guns." does not seem unreasonable. Especially after it was successful elsewhere. Going "Well if we make those efforts people will starting killing themselves in droves." however is unreasonable.

Look, as much as I'd love to continue delineating over possible statistical effects of gun control that ostensibly worked in other countries with far different populations and histories, it's 4:30 in the morning and I have math homework to do. So in my place, I will post this video of a guy only slightly less insufferable than me responding to many of the arguments you guys have been putting forward, including mass shootings, with more statistical data. Have fun


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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

The question you quoted specifically mentioned taking control away from corporations. That's how it's different from just social democracy.

No, social democracies do that.

How so, most social democrat countries have a lower corporate tax rate than the US, even after the tax cuts

And a few more regulations on minimum wage and the like isn't wresting control from them either
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

scar the 1 posted...

The socialism defined in the study is not the same as the ostensible socialism of Venezuela.

Mal_Fet posted...

Wresting control from the corporations for the purposes of providing services to everyone is exactly what the Venezuelan government did.

Social democracies don't involve the government taking control of the economy. They just entail more government services and wealth redistribution.

Wealth distribution definitely qualifies as "government to take a larger role in managing the economy to make sure that every individual has equal access to basic necessities and public goods, even if that means that some people have to transfer their wealth to others".

The question you quoted specifically mentioned taking control away from corporations. That's how it's different from just social democracy.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

In the context of Mass Shootings, especially in an epididemic that is unique to one single nation. I strongly disagree.

I reject your notion that a correlation between America (arguably the greatest country in the world) and lower homicide/suicide rates than some other nations proves that gun-control doesn't work and wouldn't help stop mass shootings.

A correlation doesn't imply causation. Mass shootings in Australia were already rare before the gun ban, which means fewer mass shootings afterward is pretty statistically insignificant.

And by thew way, the homicide rate in Australia dropped at a slower rate than America's did in the time after their gun ban. Shall we take that to mean a gun ban will result in slower homicide rate decline? It's a correlation, after all.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

The socialism defined in the study is not the same as the ostensible socialism of Venezuela.

Mal_Fet posted...

Wresting control from the corporations for the purposes of providing services to everyone is exactly what the Venezuelan government did.

Social democracies don't involve the government taking control of the economy. They just entail more government services and wealth redistribution.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

That it in no way supports the notion that Venezuela is the progressivist ideal

Socialism is the progressive ideal. Every major socialist praised Venezuela right up until their economy collapsed like every other socialist state's did. Ergo, Venezuela is the result of the progressive ideal.

UnfairRepresent posted...

You literally were arguing that it's acceptable

Wrong. I said that looking only at mass shootings rather than homicides overall is missing the forest for the trees.

You know for someone who constantly claims I can't see nuance you are really dense at parsing relevant information.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Thanks, Trump.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

No, I took issue with you falling into a trap of painting whole populations with views they don't have based on incorrect reasoning...

And I deferred to your judgment and replaced the example I used with one that doesn't have the issues you raised.

What's. the. problem?
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

ZMythos posted...

Your OP wasn't designed to "open discussion." It wad meant for you to patronize your opposition while standing on a pedestal made from the bodies of dead children.

I brought up zero dead children. In fact, it was everyone else who, in response to my statistics-based arguments, that were saying shit like "17 kids are dead and you think that's OK!!!!!!!!"

If that's not standing on the graves of dead children to push an agenda then I don't know what is.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

1) Admitted you don't know anything about any of the proposals we've had.

You're the one who brought up specific proposals, not me.

Zeeak4444 posted...

3) Been unable to explain why advocating/proposing legislation is a trait of a dictator

Yes I have. Dictators always do it.

Zeeak4444 posted...

4) Cite a single instance of an outright gunban being proposed on anything aside from
ARs.

Obama literally advocated for confiscation....
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

I didn't say anything about "progressives" I said you need to beware the notion that Corbyn reflects the views of the British population, which is false.

You took issue with how I chose to represent progressives, so I represented them in another way. What's the problem?
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

Ctrl+F Venezuela etc

What? Wresting control from the corporations for the purposes of providing services to everyone is exactly what the Venezuelan government did.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

But.... what does any of this have to do with Corbyn and the UK population? O_o

Wut.

You didn't like the Corbyn example because you say he doesn't represent progressives so I gave you en example that does. What's the problem?

Zeeak4444 posted...

"unconstitutional" proposals that make people dictators for considering them.

Such as Obama, yes.

ZMythos posted...

Mal Fet shitposting over the graves of 17 children.

Not surprising

I thought gun control advocates always complain that it's "never a good time" to discuss gun control...? Well here I am discussing it. I thought that's what you all wanted
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

So I asked for you to choose any of the 150 proposals that have been shut down and you countered that the opinion of someone (not the actual legislation) is what matter more?

And I said that was a non-sequitur. I don't know how many proposals they put forward were unconstitutional, but I can say that since 2011 Obama used Australia's confiscation model as an example for American gun policy, which would be completely unconstitutional.

https://www.rt.com/usa/165384-obama-australia-gun-law/

But let me guess, Obama doesn't count because he personally never submitted an unconstitutional proposal to enforce it even though he plainly called on Congress to do it.

UnfairRepresent posted...

The difference it makes is whether or not is fair to say that he represents the views of the average Labour party voter.

He really doesn't.

And that's not a defense nor an attack on either him or the Labour Party. It's just a fact. You're either lying or have been mislead or both if you think his views are a reflection of popular views in the UK.

What do you want, a cohesive poll of progressives who view socialism positively?

Ok then:

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/democrats-poll-socialism-219600

Over half of all Democrats say socialism has a positive impact. And considering how surely fewer than half of all Democrats are actually progressives, I think it;s fair to say that basically all progressives (in the US at least) want socialism.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

That's nice.

I hope he fries.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

byrone posted...

Because you're saying a section of England represents ALL "progressives"

The UK was one of the examples I was given. Don't blame me for using it.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

Here's my counter:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

Please tell me how that video shows something unconstitutional now.

Here's my counter:

I referred specifically to what the top Democrats want to do. It's great that they're so far powerless to enforce it, but that doesn't change that a total gun ban is what they want.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

byrone posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

byrone posted...

One person = all progressives?

An elected representative, by definition, represents his constituents.

If you're talking about Corbyn then the public didn't elect him.

Constituents vote for their local MP. The Party leader was decided by the official party and it was torn between 4 candiates who were all notoriously unpopular and nearly split the party.

Corbyn is not popular in the UK and it's a lie to say that he is. Both him and May have no faith from the general population.

Be careful what media sites tell you, its easy to fall for clickbait.

If you're not talking about Corbyn then disregard this

He's absolutely talking about Corbyn

@Mal_Fet

Ok so he was elected by people who represent their constituents. What difference does that make
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

scar the 1 posted...

I love LotR, but it's not really a great example of fiction dealing sensibly with race, lol. It's quite literally the story of bermensch fighting dirty Arabs. So eh

Ok, how about Kingdom Come Deliverance set in medieval Bohemia

https://www.facebook.com/kingdomcomewarhorse/posts/10202252144139136

Haven't seen it. What about it?

People made a stink about how the game featured only white people. What I linked to is the dev's response to it.

Ok. What about it?

Just pointing out to someone who thinks people have a problem with Black Panther having a majority black cast that there are actually only people who have a problem with settings with mostly white people.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

scar the 1 posted...

I love LotR, but it's not really a great example of fiction dealing sensibly with race, lol. It's quite literally the story of bermensch fighting dirty Arabs. So eh

Ok, how about Kingdom Come Deliverance set in medieval Bohemia

https://www.facebook.com/kingdomcomewarhorse/posts/10202252144139136

Haven't seen it. What about it?

People made a stink about how the game featured only white people. What I linked to is the dev's response to it.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

So back on topic. How is wanting gun control now equate to people wanting Trump to be a dictator?

Because the sort of gun control top Democrats want is unconstitutional.

We've had over 150 proposals since 2011.

Can you cite the ones that are unconstitunal for me please?

Mal_Fet posted...

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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

So back on topic. How is wanting gun control now equate to people wanting Trump to be a dictator?

Because the sort of gun control top Democrats want is unconstitutional.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

The23rdMagus posted...

I didn't name any of them, nor mention Venezuela. Please try to stay on track.

Mistook you for someone else.

Anyway, suffice to say progressives will not be happy with a handful of extra government services. They aren't in Canada, or Sweden, or Norway, etc etc.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

byrone posted...

One person = all progressives?

An elected representative, by definition, represents his constituents.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Mal_Fet posted...

You got fooled because you weren't paying attention. Carry on now.

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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

byrone posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Venezuela is the progressive ideal. Not any of the countries you named.

According to you. You're incredibly delusional.

Mal_Fet posted...

The top leftist in the UK government openly and proudly advocates socialism, and once praised Venezuela as an ideal socialist state.

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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

You realize I was reinforcing his "stricter background checks" statement right.

You know that the background checks at fairs are no less strict than they are at any gun store, right.

What about this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

?

That article references private sales, not sales through a gun show proprietor. And if you watched the video I posted, you'd know why the statistics cited are nonsense.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

The23rdMagus posted...

Or keep trying to improve the place they live.

You know that the UK, Canada, Germany, etc. all have progressives rallying no less feverishly to impose the laws they want, right? The top leftist in the UK government openly and proudly advocates socialism, and once praised Venezuela as an ideal socialist state. Venezuela is the progressive ideal. Not any of the countries you named.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

You realize I was reinforcing his "stricter background checks" statement right.

You know that the background checks at fairs are no less strict than they are at any gun store, right.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

byrone posted...

How's Canada, France, Norway, Germany, the UK doing?

Not embodying all progressive ideas, that's for sure. If more restrictions on firearms and "free" healthcare is all progressives wanted they'd all have already moved to those places.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Background checks, on the other hand, is something that most Americans agree with, however the people paying Congress politicians don't.

Background checks are required to buy a gun in every state in the country.

At fairs also? Although I think that what I'm referring to is stricter background checks.

You are. He's trying to deflect as he did when I said gun control and he read it as gun ban.

Ouch...
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

The23rdMagus posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

The23rdMagus posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Further, progressives (in general) want free healthcare, free housing, free tampons, free sex changes, and little or no work required of them. Where do you find all these things?

Prison.

You aren't by chance implying prisoners have a better quality of life than the average lower-class person that would be in need of such things, are you?

No, because I recognize that progressives' ideas won't lead to a better quality of life.

By all means, elaborate.

How's Venezuela doing
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

The23rdMagus posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Further, progressives (in general) want free healthcare, free housing, free tampons, free sex changes, and little or no work required of them. Where do you find all these things?

Prison.

You aren't by chance implying prisoners have a better quality of life than the average lower-class person that would be in need of such things, are you?

No, because I recognize that progressives' ideas won't lead to a better quality of life.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

Background checks, on the other hand, is something that most Americans agree with, however the people paying Congress politicians don't.

Background checks are required to buy a gun in every state in the country.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

We don't know that.

On a global scale there is a debatable correleation according to some sources. That's all we know.

Ok, post those sources.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

I responded to your own words.

No, it was Aspirin who described physically shutting down speakers as "dismissing ideas"

You got fooled because you weren't paying attention. Carry on now.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

You're literally arguing that mass shootings of schools in America is A-okay

Look if you're just going to keep lying about what I have clearly written in this topic for everyone to see, then there's no use continuing.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

I haven't made an argument other than saying the mass shooting epidemic is unique to America.

And I have made the argument that dividing out mass shootings from the overall homicide rate is meaningless.

UnfairRepresent posted...

So it's cool to have children mowed down over and over and over and over and over and over

No it isn't. And since we know that banning guns doesn't actually prevent homicides, it would be pertinent to come up with some other, better solutions then, right? Like better policing and more mental health services.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

The Gun Worship from people like TC and the gun Fear from Liberals means neither "side" is rational and nothing is done as Children are routinely mowed down.

In all my experience debating gun control, one thing has been consistently and abundantly clear: all the relevant knowledge about firearms and the statistics thereof are on the side of gun rights supporters. People who advocate gun control are largely slacktivist keyboard warriors who need it explained to them what the difference between an "assault rifle" and an "assault weapon", that a semi-automatic isn't a machine gun, that we already require background checks for gun purchases, and that the AR in AR-15 doesn't stand for "assault rifle".

I need to explain these things to people without fail every time gun control becomes a hot topic again, and these are the things the left wants to legislate on. Things they are completely, blindingly ignorant of.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

No, I responded to a single post where you said conservatives never dissmissed ideas without giving them considerate thought.

He was referring to my post about leftists shutting down speakers. You got fooled by his attempt to soften what crazed leftist protesters are doing.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

Okay now show me the graphs for mass shootings, specifically focusing on school shootings worldwide.

Why, because the graphs for the overall homicide rate completely blows your argument out of the water?

It's not worse to be killed in a mass shooting than it is to be killed in any other circumstance. That's why the homicide rate is what matters.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

scar the 1 posted...

I love LotR, but it's not really a great example of fiction dealing sensibly with race, lol. It's quite literally the story of bermensch fighting dirty Arabs. So eh

Ok, how about Kingdom Come Deliverance set in medieval Bohemia

https://www.facebook.com/kingdomcomewarhorse/posts/10202252144139136
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

Dude. Where the fuck did the idea of someone physically trying to shut down a speaker come from.

Mal_Fet posted...

Tell you what: for every zero cases you find of a right-wing group attempting to shut down a leftist speaker, I will find you infinite cases of a leftist group trying to shut down a right-wing speaker. Ready, go:

It's a good thing I never responded to that post in any way, shape, or form.

Not my fault you butted in on argument without knowing what it was about.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

Dude. Where the fuck did the idea of someone physically trying to shut down a speaker come from.

Mal_Fet posted...

Tell you what: for every zero cases you find of a right-wing group attempting to shut down a leftist speaker, I will find you infinite cases of a leftist group trying to shut down a right-wing speaker. Ready, go:

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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

UnfairRepresent posted...

"This has worked in every other nation on Earth except Switzerland and they don't have these problems."

Nope.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

"Where did all this talk of gun bans come from??"

"From some of the highest-ranking Democrats in Congress who openly declare they want to ban guns"

"That's what you're gonna pull. Really reaching hard now aren't we??"

This topic is almost going as badly for you as that other topic about shutting down speakers is. Almost.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

Since you continue to ignore gun control (this being the third mention now) I'll change it up.

Ok, show us an example of right wingers trying to shut down a speech/debate on gun control since you wont for any of those others.

Zeeak4444 posted...

Sexual revolution. If you need some time to read up on that before we begin go ahead. I'm not gonna break it down for you here but you can use any of the issues there you find to refute it.

You literally need to go back half a century to find a single example of right-wingers shutting down a speaker?

How embarrassing...
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

Where does this gun ban shit keep coming from.

Democrats


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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

Was this supposed to be witty or something?

No I was genuinely asking why you wouldn't just post specific examples when any debate regarding those things gets shut down by right wingers.

It's rather suspicious, bro. It's almost like you're just making shit up and praying I will believe it.
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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

Zeeak4444 posted...

I wasn't aware passing/advocating for legislation was something dictators do.

Passing legislation that bans guns AND going directly against the Constitution is a hallmark of dictatorship, yes.


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Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell