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Pinkie

Network
Nightcrawler
Nocturne
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Omega Red

Denny's
Chili's
Red Robin
Red Lobster

Tri-Joey

Ernst
Fiz
Forearm
Gazing Nightshade
Gosamyr
Graymalkin

Sage
Scout
Sebastian Shaw
Shard
Shark-Girl
Shatterstar

Feud

Negasonic Teenage Warhead
Network
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Benjamin Deeds

swordz9 posted...

Because Hulk was free and Red Hulk potentially cost money

High Evo isn't free though

Genesis
Gorgon
Gosamyr
Graymalkin
Greycrow
Guardian (James Hudson)

I don't see any track. Maybe they took it down cause it was bugged

Sunfire
Sunpyre
Sunspot
Super Doctor Astronaut Peter Corbeau
Surge
Sway

Lucky

Sebastian Shaw
Shadowcat
Shard
Shark-Girl
Sharon Friedlander
Shatterstar

Network
Nightcrawler
Nocturne
Northstar
Omega Red

Fate/Stay Night
Steins;Gate
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney
G-Senjou No Maou

Genesis
Flubber

Wither
Wiz-Kid
Wolf Cub
Zero
Ziggy Karst

I'm like "why is everyone hating on Mega Man 3" and I see it's people from Poland upset there isn't more representation in their game again and I feel rejuvenated in my belief it's the best NES Mega Man.

Random
Rasputin IV
Redneck
Rockslide
Rubbermaid

Mexican girls love to arbitrarily gatekeep things from being "real" Mexican so I believe it was said but it also should be regarded as arbitrary gatekeeping as it is rather than credible information.

Kid Gladiator
Kid Omega
Kidogo
Kwannon/Revanche
Kylun

Viola had the orb things

That's all I remember

Soul Calibur IV was still fine I thought. I preferred it over III in fact

After that though have had trouble getting into any of them

Sebastian Shaw
Shard
Shark-Girl
Sharon Friedlander
Shatterstar

Tacos
Enchiladas
Tamales
Chile Rellenos

Wow no first place votes for punch out is a bit surprising. I would put it at second or third probably but it'd be in strong consideration for first

X-Men: Mutant Apocalypse (Super Nintendo)

Super Punch-Out!! (Super Nintendo)

Alien vs Predator (Arcade)

Doom II: Hell on Earth (PC)

X

I know this feeling from Skyrim

Needs combat/mechanic mods. It's a good game but I'll always mention the mods so it's full disclosure.

If I have to rate the game it'll probably be the modded score not the vanilla score, but mentally I'll assign it an arbitrary penalty. The game has native support for modding though so not a big penalty.

Most other games I've played the mods are just a fun diversion so they weigh almost nothing.

Id put that in firm exclusive tier 1.1 with Clayfighter 63 1/3 and Fighter's History

redrocket posted...

Virtua Fighter?

I don't think so. You'd want Tekken if you were going that way. Virtua Fighter was first but by not even a year-- and Tekken just crushed it in terms of success and didn't come out that much later at all.

It'd be like including Fatal Fury or Art of Fighting over King of Fighters.

Yeah SF4 is actually a good one. I'd probably include it before Smash Melee as well but I'd have to think about it

Games that I think are worth considering for this rushmore

Street Fighter 2
Street Fighter 4
Mortal Kombat
Mortal Kombat 2
Tekken
Tekken 3
Soul Calibur 2
X-Men vs Street Fighter
Marvel vs Capcom 2
Marvel vs Capcom 3
King of Fighters 94
King of Fighters 98
Super Smash Bros Melee
Super Smash Bros Ultimate

Don't think any others really should be in the discussion

And yes Ehrgeiz was a failure. The Star Wars game was too. Tournament Fighters I think did fine. The Marvel vs Capcom games were pretty good successes though and I think that's all the encouragement Square would need there. Again hard to know but the WELL MADE Fighters with licensed properties were having their share of success well before Smash came along so it seems wrong to say it pushed anyone aside from the straight knock offs.

I don't agree. I think Ehrgeiz existing and predating Smash kinda refutes that one-- Square was already experimenting with putting its characters in fighters. Unless you're saying fighters never experiment with alternate damage systems without Smash? I don't really agree there either-- Square made the Bushido Blade games which were experimenting with weird damage systems too. Mixing franchises? Again the Marvel vs Capcom games were already doing that. Heck there was Star Wars Masters of Teras Kasi experimenting with that kinda stuff too. You yourself mentioned TMNT Tournament Fighter, even, which was an early example of using established characters for a fighting game.

I mean it's hard to know but I just think Smash was late to the party to really put much of the appeal to it. It's not like the games before it doing the same kinda things were flopping.

HaRRicH posted...

Final Fantasy and Playstation All-Stars to Warner Bros. and Nickelodeon

Final Fantasy? I don't consider Dissidia to be remotely Smashy.

Leonhart4 posted...

I dislike using sales numbers as a barometer of impact. That feels like least common denominator stuff.

I agree and only went into those weeds cause Ulti did to be clear.

Though a straight "sales" rushmore isn't too bad. You'd basically want a rep from SF, Tekken, MK, and Smash. Which is fine, just not the one I'd pick

Kanz is arguing the same factual data I am though in saying 3d fighters are the most popular subgenre. (Which is not an actual argument I care a lot about but yeah, he's not wrong)

UltimaterializerX posted...

you're a waste of time because I don't waste mental energy debating proven factual data

UltimaterializerX posted...

You actually are right

Lol

I'm not saying Tekken is more popular than Smash

Just that Tekken is a big deal as a series and even a purely sales argument (which is the only one Smash really has) doesn't put it out of the running against Smash

I mean

You do realize Tekken as a series (alone) has sold pretty close to what Smash as a series has right Ulti. Add in Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive, Virtua Fighter, and whatever other ones did anything and 3d fighters probably beat platform fighters in terms of total sales pretty convincingly

Granted Tekken has like 3x the games Smash does but it shows your ignorance to say 3d fighters don't have any ground to stand

Art of Fighting and Fatal Fury deserve probably more credit for supers existing conceptually. Which is another nod to why KoF98 is a good rep. It kinda gives a nod to all of SNK's contributions to the genre, which are a ton and way exceed Smash's island of well received games

WhiteLens posted...

Clearly it was The King of Fighters '94. Kids seeing all those SNK characters together in a fighting game must have been a treat to them.

Honestly feel KoF94 unironically deserves credit for the crossover stuff and team based stuff that's why I was thinking about KoF to begin with. Just think 98 kinda "represents" that influence about as well and was way more popular (kinda like Melee is, rightfully, getting votes over Smash 64)

I guess I just think X-Men vs Street Fighter and all its follow ups (they were 3 games deep before Smash) means Smash was wholly unneeded for that

I mean Ehrgeiz came out before Smash!

Side note I actually think X-Men vs Street Fighter is a better rep than Marvel vs Capcom 2/3 because of this but no one is voting it.

Leonhart4 posted...

I'd say games like that where you're getting fanfiction wish fulfillment in a fighter is what Smash really created

I would say Smash helped that along but that actually started with X-Men vs Street Fighter

If I were to include X-Men vs Street Fighter or Marvel vs Capcom 2 on the list it wouldn't be because they "invented the tag fighting genre" but they do have elements that permeate into fighting games as a whole, tag fighting being one of them.

Assists, absurd combo counts/visual effects, and using multiple IPs would be almost more notable though.

2d fighter
2.5d fighter
3d fighter

For me that's basically it.

Like I guess you could dig up specific things like "tag fighter" or "gory fighter" or "crossover fighter" which to me is the finer subdivisioning where you start putting platform/party fighters aka Smash in. But even those subdivisions have more "genre" cred than platform fighting cause they exist in more than one series that was successful