Lurker > HaRRicH

Here's a thing about eligibility. I titled it.....

ELIGIBILITY:

We're all going to be concerned about Sheik's eligibility, so let's talk. We do run the risk of SBAllen deciding later that only Zelda is eligible, yes. However, the revolution will not be denied by fear alone!

Here's our ultimate point about that risk: say it to our nominations after we out-nominate Zelda! If we can only have one of these two characters, then make SBAllen boot Zelda instead of Sheik. When we out-nominate Zelda, what other reason would there be to prevent Sheik's debut?

That said, we recognize were fighting against the odds -- not just to get Sheik in, but also to win in our position that Sheik should be allowed on top of Zeldas inclusion too. To understand our position, you should understand what we believe is a long-standing fallacy.

BOARD 8S FALLACY:

The common thought process here is Sheik cannot enter a contest because Sheik is Zelda and Zelda is already here, meaning Zelda represents Sheik.

That thought process doesnt satisfy us. Heres why: SBAllens history.

First, SBAllen never put Sheik in one of Zelda's Character Battle pictures before we messaged him about Sheiks eligibility. Sheik's appearance against Cloud in a Zelda-match was confusing since Sheik and Zelda have separated since SSB4. As someone who personally voted against Zelda in all of the second half of her 2018-run, I would have voted for Sheik in every single match Zelda had that contest...so it was weird to have one of my favorite characters represent a character I didn't care much for. Sheik and Zelda mean different things to other gamers too -- check any Smash-stream -- so allowing Sheik in as her own entrant will solve this confusion.

Before we messaged SBAllen about Sheik's eligibility though, she only got background cameos for Zelda once from the CJayC era. We wanted that level of representation to change by giving Sheik her own place in the bracket, and SBAllen's immediate response was to add Sheik in a Zelda match despite us saying beforehand that is not what we are asking for. Let us be clear: two rotating background shots for Zelda one day wasn't representation for Sheik then in 2006, and one rotating foreground shot for Zelda one day now in 2018 isn't representation for Sheik either. Now that SBAllen went on to do what we said we hoped he wouldn't do, it's on us to let him know Zelda-matches are not a satisfying place for Smash-fans to see Sheik represented. Give her a poll, not a picture!

Let's also look at SBAllens actions regarding another fighting game series: Soul Calibur. SBAllen featured both Nightmare and Siegfried in 2008's Character Battle, and then later in 2011 those two characters represented a rivalry together.

Let's compare these two pairs. Nightmare is a form of Siegfried = Sheik is a form of Zelda. Nightmare was once considered to be Siegfried, but they entirely separated in Soul Calibur 3 = Sheik was once considered to be Zelda, but they entirely separated in SSB4. Nightmare's play-style is significantly different from Siegfried's = Sheik's play-style is significantly different from Zelda's. SBAllen allowed Siegfried and Nightmare to represent themselves as separate characters, and thats all we want for Sheik.

We could nitpick their differences...but really, SBAllen has proven lenient. One of his first major contest decisions was allowing a tetromino in as a character. More recently, he shared he would relax on his usual nomination rules during 2018's Character Battle. Sheik's situation is more like Nightmare's than Spiderman's...so, respectfully, SBAllen should only care about Sheik's final nomination count like he did for Siegfried and Nightmare.

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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

AxemRedRanger posted...

I mean, Zelda's the name she's most known by regardless of nominations. This "outst the princess by outnominating Zelda" thing is a pretty funny and clever idea though, I will admit - especially with the potential victim being a contender for the #2 character on the site! It, uh, probably wouldn't be a good precedent to effectively allow people to have anti-nominations if they can beat the nominations of a popular character by nominating them under an obscure name and possibly guise, though. Rookie, Mr. L, Glenn, Iroquois Pliskin...there's no end to the mischief that could be done, so it probably won't happen. So I think your main hope would be that the latest Smash appearances or whatever are good enough to make SBAllen considering counting her as her own character.

It's a valid point about anti-nominations, but this rally is more about Sheik-fans being rejected their legitimate wish for representation until now moreso than tricking Zelda-fans out of their matches. If Zelda is the reason Sheik can't be represented though, what else are Sheik-fans to do?

And hey, last I checked Sheik was S-tier (again) in Ultimate so that's fine.
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

Kenri posted...

HaRRicH posted...

We're glad you're on-board! I'm about to address "precedent," but I think you're thinking of things like Aeris/Aerith and we have another perspective.

Specifically Tales of Symphonia. Mithos/Yggdrasil. Not to mention Ganon/Ganondorf.

There are others but I haven't played their games so idk how comparable the situations are: Ren/Joker, Naked Snake/Big Boss, etc.

I can't speak to Persona 5, but Naked Snake was basically just renamed at the end of MGS3 if I remember that right. Zelda/Sheik have significant differences outside of names!

EDIT: oh, and Ganon/Ganondorf...they struck me as intending to be the same character in spirit even if they were separate characters by technicality. I'm all for an education on the nuances for this one though if it was wrong to have Ganon represent Ganondorf. We also believe it was confusing for Sheik to have represented Zelda against Cloud in one of her pics.
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

WarThaNemesis2 posted...

HaRRicH posted...

WarThaNemesis2 posted...

I think we're looking at #1 overall seed Zelda.

Do you take Sheik as the #1 seed as well if and when she out-nominates Zelda?

I think they'll be combined nominations, personally, but if both are let in that opens the door for Dark Knight Cecil AND Paladin Cecil both being allowed in so I fully support the cause!

I can't speak to FFV's scenario, but we do believe Zelda/Sheik are less of a clone than most clones.
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

Shaduln posted...

In

My man. Thank you for joining the cause -- we're ready to go all the way with this and glad to have you here with us!

_SecretSquirrel posted...

I'm nominating Tetra.

I've seen you post that not too long ago -- good luck! I think Tetra is too similar to Zelda in a way Sheik is not -- the Smash-separation in playability and mechanics -- but love is love and it's your nomination. I just hope you find it in your heart to support Sheik too!
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

WarThaNemesis2 posted...

I think we're looking at #1 overall seed Zelda.

Do you take Sheik as the #1 seed as well if and when she out-nominates Zelda?
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

Kenri posted...

I'm down to try, but Sheik and Zelda are literally the exact same person. The precedent has usually been to combine those nominations. I can see Sheik's noms just getting wrapped into Zelda's total.

We're glad you're on-board! I'm about to address "precedent," but I think you're thinking of things like Aeris/Aerith and we have another perspective.
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

MetalmindStats posted...

Heyo!

I would personally prefer seeing Sheik in the field along with Zelda. To me, Sheik is distinct enough to merit a separate slot in her own right, and Zelda would be quite a snub.

Right on, that is this rally's position as well!

AxemRedRanger posted...

I think the appropriate thing is for SBAllen to just count all the Sheik nominations as Zelda nominations since they're the same character and disqualify the nominations of anyone who tries to cheat the system there by nominating both.

>_>

Even if Sheik out-nominates Zelda?

Logience posted...

I did what now? I didn't say Sheik should be nominated as separate from Zelda. I just said it would be a cute bonus match for ten seconds before I realized it would still end up with Zelda mauling Sheik.

I added your name from a previous blind rally-topic that didn't refer to Sheik or Zelda. Was this a mistake or did you intend this?
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

@Shonen_Bat
@TAFKAHurricane
@Logience
@Janus5k
@Dels
@WarThaNemesis2

Here's the rally you bravely jumped into -- thank you for your early support! Please share your opinion on contest philosophy regarding whether it is more appropriate to:

1) Allow both Sheik and Zelda into the same contests, or

2) Only allow Sheik in contests where she out-nominates Zelda.

We'll poll the board later but we're tallying Sheik-pledgers first...and either way we go, we're ready to get her in. What do you think though?
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

@Eddv
@AxemRedRanger
@MetalmindStats
@UltimaterializerX
@hombad46
@STEINER

Here's the rally you bravely jumped into -- thank you for your early support! Please share your opinion on contest philosophy regarding whether it is more appropriate to:

1) Allow both Sheik and Zelda into the same contests, or

2) Only allow Sheik in contests where she out-nominates Zelda.

We'll poll the board later but we're tallying Sheik-pledgers first...and either way we go, we're ready to get her in. What do you think though?
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

A DISCLAIMER:

Okay so listen, @ZenOfThunder and I are excited to get deeper into this rally, but we gotta be real with you now that we got our pitch out of the way.

We talked with SBAllen about Sheik's contest eligibility. After a few feedback tickets, he filed us away for future consideration.

It's not a no! ...but it's not a yes yet either.

The point is, this rally for Sheik might not work despite our best efforts -- for every Chester and WWF No Mercy, there is a Jay Solano and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. We believe in this rally succeeding with your help, but you should know that risk going forward.

We recognize this rally will lead to conversations regarding contest eligibility, and we welcome them in good faith.

So, as we begin, please note:

We are asking all people pledging for Sheik to also voice if they think it is more appropriate to:

1) Allow both Sheik and Zelda into the same contests, or

2) Only allow Sheik in contests where she out-nominates Zelda.

You will see our case for Sheik as we push this rally forward. Long story short though: we are advocating to allow both characters, but we're also out-nominating Zelda just to be safe.

We'll keep a tally in-house among Sheik-supporters, and then we'll take a broader board vote later on after we make our case public and talk about it awhile. We'll follow up with SB afterward for a friendly update on both Sheik's support and how the board feels about this issue of eligibility.

We're doing this, and we're doing this the right way.

Either way we go -- whether Sheik's debut requires breaking the nomination barrier or requires out-seeding Zelda -- we are not afraid. If SB decides later on to officially shut us down, c'este la vie...but while it's undecided and filed away for future consideration, this is our best chance ever for Sheik-fans to finally show she has legitimate support.

Let's help SB decide. =)
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

O P E R A T I O N O U S T :

vB) HaRRicH
vB) ZenOfThunder
3) Eddv
4) AxemRedRanger
5) MetalmindStats
6) UltimaterializerX
7) hombad46
8) STEINER
9) Shonen_Bat
10) TAFKAHurricane
11) Logience
12) Janus5k
13) Dels
14) WarThaNemesis2
15) A new legend.....

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/7a/76/067a765c276f3e51b91c82daabe3da27.jpg

BOARD 8'S STEPPING-STONE GOALS:
--> Five (5) blind pledges from Board 8 - DOUBLE SUCCESS
--> Ten (10) pledges within the rally's first week
--> Five (5) unique users adding Sheik-based signatures

BOARD 8'S MAJOR GOAL:
--> Eighty (80) pledges to support her getting into the contest by CB11's nomination-period
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KQAgzeuqhAk/maxresdefault.jpg

BOLD PREDICTION: Sheik beats Zelda one-on-one. Sheik is so much better than Zelda in every Smash-game and Sheik steals the show from Zelda in her strongest LoZ-game, so Sheik is taking this if given the chance to face her. It's too bad we might not ever get to prove that prediction though, due to some ineligibility rule...so if SBAllen must decide there can only be one of them in at a time, then Sheik will just have to kick Zelda out and prove her dominance through nominations.

For our closing argument...Epona proved something important in 2013: the Legend of Zelda has more to offer our Character Battles. Epona outseeded both Ganondorf and Zelda, and then she beat Ike by almost as much as Pikachu could. That isn't just the result of joke-support; that's legitimacy within the Nintendo fanbase. People love this series and its characters, so now we can prove it again with another fan-favorite named Sheik.

Its time for a new legend.

Rally for Sheik. Oust the princess.
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

*LoZ and Smash spoilers below*

From the user who brought you Team Chocolate, The Stable, and Metal Men...and the user who brought you Yoshimitsu, Corvo, and the Metal Sonic Army...comes the loftiest goal for a rally in Board 8 history.

Welcome to the official Sheik-rally! We have one goal: ensure Sheik (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate) gets in the next Character Battle by out-nominating Princess Zelda.

Dont think its possible? Epona out-seeded her in 2013...and we weren't even trying.

Somebody play Zelda's Lullaby, because we're putting her to rest.

https://pa1.narvii.com/6175/2a75f07aa76433c805cc1c791ce9afe5bd12a7a5_hq.gif

128 characters seen in Super Smash Bros. have been featured in at least one match. We have also seen 171 playable fighting game characters that are featured in at least one match. All of these characters have been given their chance before Sheik, a repeatedly top-tier fighting character in a repeatedly top-tier fighting series.

It's time we stop this injustice with a game-winning Bouncing Fish.

Cue music.



So why Sheik? Let's start with her origin. Sheik stars in Nintendo's all-time classic game, the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. She comes to Link's aid in a shroud of mystery, teaching you the songs you need for warping to each adult dungeon. Her reveal near the end is a memorable moment, forever reminding us about that one time in the 90s when Zelda was cool.

Sheiks impact allowed her to return as an alternate costume in the Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. We also saw her become playable in Hyrule Warriors. Thats pretty neat!

https://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/[email protected]

All that is hype enough as is, but also this rally began because Sheik kicks ass in Super Smash Bros. She just made it into Ultimate, the fifth game in the series...and yet, out of all the playable characters, Sheik is the only one left who's been in every Smash-game since Melee but has not made it into a match yet. She is also the highest-tier Smash-character we havent seen yet. This puts her lagging behind fifty-eight playable characters and seventy other characters seen in the series who made it in before her. Sheik deserves a chance!

Meanwhile, while we're talking about the Smash-series, do you know who's not that good? Zelda! Theres a good reason Nintendo completely separates Sheik and Zelda in the past two Smash-games: becoming Sheik was Zelda's best feature, and starting as Zelda was Sheik's worst problem. #DownB

Strength-wise, Sheik's a wildcard with a high floor. She's beating at least 80% of the characters we've seen in Smash before. Few characters we've seen in any other fighting game would stand a chance against her either. Meanwhile, from the LoZ-series, she crushes the likes of Tingle, Groose, and Midna. Sheik-fans are far more openly proud than Epona's fans, so chalk up a win there too. On the other end of the spectrum, Sheik would resist SFF against Link better than Ganondorf did either time due to Smash.

Whether we talk about LoZ, Smash, the fighting genre, or even GameFAQs contests in general, there is arguably no bigger snub than Sheik.
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O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png

B8 love and a GF contest update? Damn, what a topic.

Congrats on the good news!
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Nominate METAL MAN for 20XX!
https://imgur.com/Dr4NAeq