Lurker > Blackstar110

Im not trying to be alarmist but you guys do seriously need to come to some sort of understanding on this. That sort of tension will lead to resentment and can undermine a marriage in a hurry.

That doesnt mean you convince her to give her mouth up every night at 7pm sharp, but it should mean shes gotta be willing to play ball a little more frequently. Dress it up in the context of setting aside couple time for date nights. Thats important for emotional intimacy too and has an obvious opportunity to end the way you hope.

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-Shred

Yikes. Ive been there where shes not in the mood so we either dont do anything or its awkward because its clearly unenthusiastic, but I hope she at least is aware that intimacy is gonna be important in marriage.

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-Shred

TheGreatEscape posted...

My list would look like something very close to that, with Maria on top for sure. Gehrman was extremely easy for me though and I didn't enjoy him that much, even with the moon presence follow up. I'd probably put daddy G really high up if only because he's a really early boss and sets the tone for the rest of the game.

Big fan of Micolash too.

I put Maria 4th but Ive only done the DLC once and I was overleveled enough to spam her into the ground. Think I used all my vials but got her first go without really learning her so I dont have proper perspective. Heading to the DLC soon on my current replay and looking forward to it.

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-Shred

lww99 posted...

my birthday and Valentines Day already passed, and those should be two freebies tbh

anniversary in April, maybe Ill get lucky

If youre engaged and didnt get blown on your birthday or Valentines Day AND you dont feel comfortable communicating your needs to her, thats a red flag. Not like a BREAK OFF THE ENGAGEMENT!!! red flag, but something you two need to work on. Sexual needs are a thing. It slows down in marriage, trust me, but that doesnt mean it has to be or should be zero. You both should be getting what you need.

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-Shred

Xeon_Is_Back posted...

Friede being #1 is the right choice. That moment where she turns invisible I just stopped moving and waited for her to come to me.

I just learned to chase after her as soon as she turns invisible. You can usually catch up in time to see her jump, and if you look in that direction, you can see the puff of snow where she lands. Or she'll be clumsy and break furniture, which helps.

Xeon_Is_Back posted...

Bloodborne boss list when.

Completely off-hand and not counting Chalice bosses, been too long for me to remember them.

Witches of Hemwick
Celestial Emissary
Cleric Beast
Micolash, Host of the Nightmare
The One Reborn
Living Failures
Rom, the Vacuous Spider
Shadows of Yharnam
Blood-Starved Beast
Amygdala
Laurence, the First Vicar
Moon Presence
Darkbeast Paarl
Mergo's Wet Nurse
Father Gascoigne
Martyr Logarius
Vicar Amelia
Gehrman, the First Hunter
Lady Maria of the Astral Clocktower
Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos
Orphan of Kos
Ludwig, the Holy Blade

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-Shred

TheGreatEscape posted...

hell yeah, good thread TC

Thanks man! And thanks to all of you for following along.

Im probably going to shamelessly bump this here and there just to keep it alive since its already such a long topic, but Id love to facilitate discussion, see some other top tens, get your thoughts on anything particular in writeups, etc. General purpose.

Plus I dont want it to archive because Im gonna transfer it all to a Google Doc for posting elsewhere and for safekeeping

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-Shred

CapnMuffin posted...

https://youtu.be/sdhd04jdJaY

Loved that. Friede may have ultimately been damning the Painted World in her selfishness, but she was still hurting and had family who would want her remembered well. Very few characters are strictly good or evil in Dark Souls.

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-Shred

For posterity, and also because of the following comment:

Father Ariandel is a reflection of the player during this fight, screaming in despair, slinging estus like a madman, and flailing around fecklessly in his gaming chair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAuIY58nv_k

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-Shred

0 - Blackflame Friede (DS3 - Ashes of Ariandel)


"Leave us be, Ashen One. Sweep all thought of us from thy mind. As thy kind always have."
...

A secret phase. Those absolute monsters at FromSoft dropped a secret third phase. I think I moaned in disbelief. Just as you begin to celebrate, Ariandel starts talking, and you notice it's taking an awfully long time for your Souls to be awarded... and then you see her, rising in a swirling twister of black fire, and before you can say "oh, you've got to be f--", she leaps into the air and crashes down in a massive AoE. This is one of my absolute favorite moments in any game ever. I was absolutely juked out of my shoes by this, and I cannot begin to tell you how many times she killed me.

In a reprise of the first phase, you face her alone, but she's added a second weapon, a ton of dark magic on top of her ice, and she's infinitely more mobile. What makes this work is that she's got new moves, but she has still taught you the basics from her first phase. She's leveled up, but she's still Friede. It takes a minute to stop panicking, but once you do, you're in for one final duel that both pays homage to Lady Maria of Bloodborne while also feeling distinctly like its own fight. Her leaping attacks where she crashes down with an icy or abyssal explosion never, ever stopped freaking me out, but once you learn to stop letting her dictate the pace and set the terms of engagement yourself, you're likely to have a better time... as long as you don't get caught in that extremely badass throat-slitter animation. Blackflame Friede is very much a Bloodborne-influenced fight, and it translates remarkably well into a boss that had me jump off my couch in a silent scream, punching the air in a desperate attempt to not wake my sleeping wife in the next room.

What makes Friede so magnificent to me is what might understandably cause her to annoy some others -- when you account for all three phases, she is truly the "final exam" for basically every kind of Souls boss. PvP-style? Check. Huge, slow monster boss? Check. 2v1 O&S-style? Check. Invisibility? Check. Duelist? Check. Magic? Check. What DOESN'T this fight have? It has everything! Naturally, though, that means if there are some kinds of Souls boss fight that you don't like, Friede is going to have that too, and you're going to have to deal with it every attempt in a very grueling battle. So, if that's not your bag, I can understand. For me, though, she is just an absolutely masterful combination of lore, setting, music, and pretty much every kind of boss you've ever fought for three games, made even more special and memorable by the pantsing of the century with the Titanite Slab gotcha-gimmick. I. Love. This. Fight.

In a way, given that Gael's corruption was an intentional sacrifice, Friede is not only a Gwyn parallel, but arguably the last actual villain you face. If you have defeated both Friede and Gael, you can return to the Painted World and find it beginning to burn as you give the young painter the Dark Soul. Thanks to you and Uncle Gael, she can paint a new world. What kind of world will it be? A world friendlier to humanity? A world that will never rot? A world without 92 soul-crushing bosses? It is impossible to know for sure, but I choose to believe it is as happy of an ending as this trilogy could have... no one knows what the future holds, but maybe you can say goodbye to this fading, doomed world and begin a new one.

A cold, dark, and very gentle place.

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-Shred

"When the Ashes are two, a flame alighteth. Thou'rt ash, and fire befits thee, of course..."

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-Shred

1 - Sister Friede and Father Ariandel (DS3 - Ashes of Ariandel)


"I see flame... flame, flickering, once again. Not enough blood yet shed! My flail... bring me my flail... ahh, Friede! What stops thine ears? Please, my flail, right away..."
...

After a harrowing journey through the increasingly disturbing and decaying Painted World, you finally find a wheel among a pit of rotten flies, opening the way to whatever lies underneath the chapel. You hear a loud noise thundering from somewhere the first time you arrive here... and let me tell you, I was not prepared to find a huge, twisted shell of a man whimpering for his flail, and that the sound you had heard earlier was him lashing himself to drown an emergent flame in his blood.

The Painted World, in many ways, serves as not only a home for lost souls, but an allegory for the cycle of fire and darkness the "real world" has found itself embroiled in. Over time, the Painted World rots, just as our First Flame fades. However, when the rotting really takes hold, the Painted World is burned and a new one is reborn from a fresh painting. This runs directly counter to Gwyn's choice to link the flame in desperation to fight the natural order and cling to his Age of Fire, and as the Corvian you can speak to says, "it's the one thing we do right, unlike those fools on the outside." This was how the Painted World operated until the arrival of Sister Friede, the eldest sister of the Sable Church of Londor. Lost and dispirited after her to failure to usurp the flame, she was eventually drawn into the Painted World... but rather than accept the natural order of things in this world, she was determined to never lose this home she had found. She became a figure of worship for the people of the Painted World, even for Father Ariandel, the painter himself. She fashioned herself as the leader they wanted (her similarities to Priscilla aren't a coincidence) and convinced them to suppress the flame with Ariandel's blood, to cling to their home, to resist the natural order. In this sense, the chance to intervene and stop Sister Friede is the closest thing we will ever have to the chance to stop Gwyn from linking the first flame and dooming our own world. Every choice in Dark Souls 1, 2, and 3 feels false. That world is finished, one way or another. All roads lead to your fated duel with Slave Knight Gael upon the ash of a world brought to ruin. This, in my opinion, is your best chance to make it right, to stop the same thing from happening again, to stop a fearful, selfish, and insecure ruler from dooming a world. Gael wants to gather the Dark Soul to paint a new world using that, with unknown but hopefully positive results, but that's no use if Friede is preventing the old world from burning. He can't beat Friede. We can. And so we arrive.

The first phase against Friede, for starters, has easily one of my favorite OSTs in the trilogy. It's hard to beat Gwyn's theme, but Friede's haunting, strange, and downright creepy theme is absolutely perfectly suited for the scene you find yourself in after discovering Father Ariandel's sorry state. This portion of the battle channels Priscilla, with her scythe sweeps and ability to turn invisible, a mechanic which is maddening at first but rewarding once you've solved how to know where she is. She attacks quickly, but can be backstabbed, giving the fight a twinge of PvP flavor. It's a great duel that will probably kill you once or twice, but you'll get it down and kill her.

Father Ariandel does not like that.

Once her blood is spilled, Ariandel looses a harrowing scream of misery and unleashes the flame, making all of his self-torture for naught, just to bring Friede back. It's really quite sad, the spell she has these people under, the devotion they have for her, so much so that he's willing to let all of his pain be for nothing to rekindle her. But rekindled she is, for lest we forget, Friede is Unkindled Ash herself, just like us. This makes for a second phase that is a bit more like an Ornstein and Smough situation, with Friede darting around and delivering quick strikes while Ariandel drags his kiln around and tries to pulverize us into mush. Luckily, Friede is way less aggressive in this phase, and it's not too hard to keep them separated. As long as you're mindful of your surroundings, you should be able to either hit Ariandel from range or get up close and bail before he smashes you. His moveset is also just wonderfully deranged, capped by him pouring molten lava all over his own head.

Ultimately, if you keep at it, you will prevail. Father Ariandel is put out of his misery, and Friede's reign of cult-leader tyranny is brought to an end. Fire for Ariandel! The combination of the fascinating lore and two excellent, difficult, and fun phases earns this boss the #1 spot on our list. Thanks for reading!

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-Shred

2 - Slave Knight Gael (DS3 - The Ringed City)


"Ahh, merciful goddess, mother of the Forlorn, who have no place to call their own, please, bear witness to our resolve... fire for Ariandel.... fire for Ariandel... and the ash to kindle flame..."
...

Like many Souls fans, when I realized that Slave Knight Gael was going to be the final boss of the trilogy, I was confused and underwhelmed. "Didn't we just meet him? Isn't he kind of a nobody?" The answer to those questions is yes, and yet it is what makes him so effective. Gael isn't inherently special; he's just a man who wants to save his world, and overcomes the odds for so long and defeats so many enemies that his power grows to dwarf what anyone would've thought possible. Does this sound familiar? Gael is a kindred spirit to the player character of all three Dark Souls games in this way, and at the end of his own journey to gather the Dark Soul, we meet him as he loses his sanity. He has led us here, leaving notes and scraps of his cape to mark the way -- he knows this task will be the end of him, and he knows he will very likely need to be put down. And so, our one-time ally meets us at the end of all things, the ultimate convergence of time and space on an ashen wasteland, possibly even the last two people to draw breath, and duel to the death for the very thing that struck such fear in Gwyn's heart and started it all... the Dark Soul.

Before we dive into the mechanics of the fight, I wanted to take a moment to acknowledge one of the most perfect stage-settings in the trilogy. The cinematic where you shatter the egg, the reveal of the wasteland, and the pygmy lord crawling towards you muttering about how "the red hood is come to eat us" is just so great. Once you find Gael and he throws that corpse at you (evoking Artorias), and you then realize this entire area is your boss arena, you know you're in for a treat. Pair all of this with a phenomenal OST that immediately communicates both bombast and deep tragedy and you've got a winning setup right from the jump.

Gael's whole fight is great, but I actually like his first phase the best, where is a little more frantic and animalistic. He needs his second phase, because he would be too easy without it, but there might not be a more satisfying combat loop than Gael's first phase in the whole trilogy, for my money. He gives an absolutely perfect amount of leeway to dodge and get your hits in, and once you've got the flow down, the dance between the two of you is absolutely exquisite. This is another boss where as I was fighting him, I was immediately reminded of my favorite Sekiro bosses and how they flow so smoothly from attack to attack, like Owl (Father) -- you can absolutely see how Miyazaki and his team were trending in that direction. I love every attack he does in this phase, but I am particularly partial to the Manus throwback, where he roars and then thrashes out in a killer multi-swing tantrum combo. Fitting, given the "Dark Soul unleashed" theme.

Phase two begins, and there aren't very many more impressive-looking arenas at this point. The storm rolling in as you clash with this knight of old leaves an imprint on your mind immediately, especially once the lightning strikes start factoring in. He adds a follow-up to all of his swings via his cloak dealing damage, which is a real bear to adjust to, and on top of that, he's got a boomerang effect miracle and a freaking semi-automatic crossbow. Speaking of Sekiro influence, this phase reminded me of Sword Saint, and just like that fight, I had the slightest niggling thought of "does he have too much going on?" There comes a point where you have so many things to track that while it ramps up the challenge, it takes away from the smoothness and the poetry of the fight a bit, but as I adjusted, I definitely found this to be more true of Sword Saint than Gael. Once you get through another third of his health or so, he tends to put away the miracle and the crossbow and get back to just jumping and diving and flipping and trying to lop your head off with his sword, and that's where I think the fight really shines. He is such a great duel, and to this day I'm not sure I've really mastered how to dodge all of his stuff. I got good enough to know when I had an opening and to know when I needed to simply get as far away as possible, but some of those follow-ups with his cape are TOUGH. It makes for a truly awesome fight and a fittingly excellent 1v1 to end the trilogy.

Gael features some of the trilogy's most exceptional combat, a uniquely massive arena, and tells a great story. Thanks to his sacrifice, finding and gathering the blood of the Dark Soul, he has helped us to plant a tree in whose shade he will never sit. The world we fight him in is lost. The world he cares so much, the world of his Lady, might still have a chance... if, as he wanted so badly, you have given "fire for Ariandel... fire for Ariandel..."

Which brings us to...

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-Shred

MildEnergy posted...

Yes I'm sure women will be lining up to date a dude who weights 300lbs and has no hair because looks are subjective

At 300 pounds and patchy hair, youre communicating a lack of taking care of yourself. Looks dont matter is more about if youre naturally the most handsome guy or not. Be in some vague semblance of shape, or even average, and have some confidence and a personality.

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-Shred

im married and I love it

just dont get married for the sake of getting married. Marry someone because theyre your best friend and you wanna live together and be partners in everything

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-Shred

meralonne posted...

I can see why you went this route. Personally, I still think hes better than Freide, but thats just me.

Needless to say, given that shes top two, but Ive got a lot to say about Friede and love her fight to bits. Everything everyone has been saying about how great Gael is is also completely 100% correct. Itamazing they sold these two characters no one had heard of as the last two big bosses of the whole trilogy and they turned out as amazing as they did.

Think I said it a couple days ago but Ive had 1 and 2 locked down since I made the list, its just whos on top that Ive wavered on a couple times. They both check so many boxes for me. Excited to write em up and reveal the big winner, despite both being completely worthy.

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-Shred

Very interesting points against Nameless King from some of you, and totally valid. I just dont find them to meaningfully detract from a killer fight.

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-Shred

AlisLandale posted...

Yeah the lack of pausing in the souls games annoys the fuck outta me. Sometimes you just gotta put a game down for a minute to handle something. >_>

Luckily in the console versions bringing up the home menu can work as a pause lol

Tell that to my dude who died while I was in the home menu

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-Shred

3 - Nameless King (DS3)


The Nameless King was once a dragon-slaying god of war, before he sacrificed everything to ally himself with the ancient dragons. His golden crown, buried amidst long strands of bristling ash, is said to closely resemble that of the First Lord. The Sun's firstborn was once a god of war, until he was stripped of his stature as punishment for his foolishness. No wonder his very name has slipped from the annals of history.
...

Very early on in the first Dark Souls, you can come across the Altar of Sunlight and find a curious statue crumbled to ruin. Later, in Anor Londo, you can find the Ring of the Sun's First Born, which details an unknown son of Gwyn, exiled and stripped of deific status, and notice missing statues in areas where they clearly resided. This served as a major point of speculation for who Gwyn's eldest son may be, and it wasn't until Dark Souls 3 that we finally received an answer. At the top of Archdragon Peak, a far-flung refuge for dragons, the Ashen One encounters a thundering warrior atop a stormdrake, perched upon a thick bed of cloud, wielding a spear and hurling lightning. No doubt remains that this Nameless King is indeed the mysterious firstborn of yore, the man exiled for befriending dragons and the mentor that Ornstein eventually abandoned Anor Londo to find. If you manage to kill his drake, the King pauses somberly before absorbing his fallen companion's energy in a manner that is clearly evocative of Ornstein and Smough, and from there, the fight truly begins.

Mechanically, the first phase of the fight with the King of the Storm is the less impressive portion due to a somewhat unwieldy camera, but I didn't find it to be a significant detriment to the experience of dodging not only the drake's attacks, but the sweeping strikes of his rider. Tracking the actions of both as you learn the moveset for this portion is a neat challenge, and any issues with the camera can mostly be alleviated by not locking on, which is true for many large bosses. Minor gripes about the camerawork aside, the King of Storms phase also has one of the coolest looking attacks in the trilogy as the drake circles above you while the Nameless King does his best Zeus impression, chucking lightning bolts from on high. That attack is absolute gold for my nerd-brain and I geek out a little bit every single time.

Of course, once you enter phase two, that's where this fight truly elevates itself to legendary status. The Nameless King's moveset is simply phenomenal. He will sweep at you with his spear, he will impale you, he will summon a lightning strike from the sky on a delay, he will smash with his spear or stomp the ground with his feet for an AoE explosion, he will dash across the arena and whirl around to give you a smackdown... his pool of attacks is essentially unparalleled, and learning how to dodge each one makes the run where you finally defeat him likely one of the most rewarding moments in the entire trilogy. He's hard, but he's not unfair -- mastering his timing is difficult, but once you've got it, the dodges and windows to punish him are clear. I did the Ashes of Ariandel DLC before Archdragon Peak on this playthrough, and Sister Friede made the Nameless King feel like he was moving in slow-motion by comparison. He is aggressive, but not so aggressive that you can't find time to heal or get in your attacks. He's just going to mess you up if you get greedy or don't play smart.

The first phase of this fight is less strong than the second, which makes it a mild annoyance to do repeatedly if you're stuck on phase two, but spending 30 seconds beating up his dragon (and seeing that one super cool attack in the process) is a miniscule entry fee for the fun of taking on one of the coolest bosses in the trilogy. His lore is fascinating, his arena and OST are awesomely unique, and and he's tough as nails but completely fair. It's a marvel the Dark Souls bosses get any better, and as a matter of fact, for my money, they did not get any better... until this final game received its two DLC packs.

Hail to the King, baby -- the best boss in the (base game) trilogy.

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-Shred

Bloodborne

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-Shred

Hades

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-Shred

Phew, I got four. MGS3, FO3, Metroid Prime, DKCTF

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-Shred

orcus_snake posted...

so TC's doing #3 on page 8 and then waiting till page 10 to end the list or wait till page 9 and then end it on 10 to milk the thread, worth.

You seem really preoccupied with the fact that I cant do a post for you every two hours. Youre free to not read it, you know!

Mormaurd posted...

i hated Nameless King only because the camera sucked shit in phase 1. That godawful camera and the lack of a reference point to know placement on anything were the real boss fights with him.

Obviously well talk about NK when he comes up, but I agree the camera isnt great in phase one. That said, it was easy enough that it didnt bother me too much and he has some really cool attacks imo

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-Shred

meralonne posted...

Honestly, it's been one of the best "Top" lists I've read on this site. Kudos!

That's awesome! Thanks.

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-Shred

Reminder that I'll post #3 separately when I write that up but then #1 and #2 will be posted simultaneously to not ruin the suspense. #3 will come either later tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone for tagging along on this so far, it's been fun. I'm glad that you've obliged me taking my time with it -- I only wanna do a ranking writeup when I really have time to get my thoughts out in a way I'm satisfied with as opposed to just crapping out the list, especially for the top 12. I love doing this kind of thing so it's been neat having an audience for it.

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-Shred

Fresh page recap.

TOP THREE FOR BEST BOSS IN THE DARK SOULS TRILOGY (alphabetical):
-Nameless King, DS3
-Sister Friede, DS3AoA
-Slave Knight Gael, DS3TRC

BEST DARK SOULS 1 BOSS:
-Gwyn, Lord of Cinder

BEST DARK SOULS 1 DLC BOSS:
-Knight Artorias

BEST DARK SOULS 2 BOSS:
-Darklurker

BEST DARK SOULS 2 DLC BOSS:
-Fume Knight

BEST DARK SOULS 3 BOSS:
-Nameless King

BEST DARK SOULS 3 DLC BOSS:
-TBD

RANKINGS (92nd-4th):
Centipede Demon
Royal Rat Vanguard
Demon Firesage
Prowling Magus & Congregation
Pinwheel
Belfry Gargoyles
Twin Dragonriders
The Gank Squad
Royal Rat Authority
Blue Smelter Demon
Dragonrider
Ruin Sentinels
Covetous Demon
Mytha, the Baneful Queen
Scorpioness Najka
Giant Lord
Iron Golem
The Bed of Chaos
Lud & Zallen, the Kings Pets
Skeleton Lords
Old Dragonslayer
Deacons of the Deep
Halflight, Spear of the Church
The Last Giant
Moonlight Butterfly
The Pursuer
Flexile Sentry
The Rotten
Guardian Dragon
Demon of Song
Ancient Dragon
Nashandra
The Lost Sinner
Bell Gargoyles
Throne Defender & Throne Watcher
Ancient Wyvern
Looking Glass Knight
Vendrick
Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin
Asylum Demon
Stray Demon
Capra Demon
Taurus Demon
Ceaseless Discharge
Seath the Scaleless
Nito
Crystal Sage
Old Iron King
Yhorm the Giant
Elana, the Squalid Queen
The Dukes Dear Freja
Velstadt, the Royal Aegis
Crossbreed Priscilla
Sanctuary Guardian
Executioners Chariot
Curse-Rotted Greatwood
Gravetender Greatwolf
Dark Sun Gwyndolin
High Lord Wolnir
Gaping Dragon
Chaos Witch Quelaag
Iudex Gundyr
Smelter Demon
Vordt of the Boreal Valley
Aava, the Kings Pet
Old Demon King
Darklurker
Black Dragon Kalameet
Dragonslayer Armor
Oceiros, the Consumed King
Aldrich, Devourer of Gods
Sinh, the Slumbering Dragon
Demon Prince
Great Grey Wolf Sif
Four Kings
Dancer of the Boreal Valley
Sir Alonne
Soul of Cinder
Burnt Ivory King
Ornstein & Smough
Manus, Father of the Abyss
Fume Knight
Darkeater Midir
Abyss Watchers
Twin Princes
Gwyn, Lord of Cinder
Pontiff Sulyvahn
Champion Gundyr
Knight Artorias

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-Shred

UnholyMudcrab posted...

Yet another fun fact: You learn from the description of his sword in later games that Artorias is left-handed. His left arm is broken and hanging limply during the fight, which means that he's kicking your ass with his off-hand the entire time.

Probably my second favorite fight in the series behind Raime

Right, which is all the more reason to leave the shield to protect Sif. Dude only had one functioning hand.

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-Shred

4 - Knight Artorias (DS1 - Artorias of the Abyss)


Artorias, deeply scarred by the Abyss, used his greatshield to form a barrier to protect his compatriot Sif. The legend that Artorias repelled the Abyss only told half the story. It seems that he was defeated, and his honor preserved, by some unsung hero, who is the true victor of the Abyss.
...

While all three Dark Souls games have memorable characters, the first comes out on top, headlined by beloved icons like Solaire, Andre, and Siegmeyer, supported by others like Big Hat Logan, the Primordial Serpents, and Lautrec. Those characters are all interactable NPCs, and their unique VA and sidequests elevate them to those heights. What makes Artorias so unique in that regard is that he places among that pantheon of the most memorable Souls characters with no sidequest, no dialogue, nothing at all to give him a boost. Fittingly, Artorias is held in such esteem by the Souls community for the same reason he is held in such esteem by others in-game -- his legacy. The world believes Artorias sacrificed everything and successfully defeated the abyss, a hero and a martyr to go down in history. We, however, know the truth. He failed. He was corrupted and needed to be put down, killed by us and his work finished by us. We revere him nonetheless, partially for the tragic failure of his heroics, but also because of his bond with Sif, who he laid down his shield to protect as a final act. This knight of Gwyn might not be the abyss-conquering hero the people of the Souls world remember him as, but he is made no less brave by us knowing his secret, and no less noble for his defeat. We preserve his honor, and that makes for an extremely iconic moment in Souls.

But enough about that nerd crap, let's talk combat.

Artorias is a beast. The granddaddy of aggressive duelists, you can pick up traces of Artorias influence in fights like Gael, Gundyr, Nameless King, Abyss Watchers, Fume Knight... basically all of them. When they designed Artorias, they set a precedent for a change of pace from the bosses of the base game. Allowing clear windows for estus? Forget it. He's coming after you and he can close the gap in a heartbeat. He can leap in the air, he can whirl around, and of course, he can just clobber you the old-fashioned way. Gwyn has shades of this, but is easily parried and a touch less acrobatic while being in a larger arena. I also love how you are presented with a difficult choice when he goes to buff himself up -- this is one of your only clear opportunities in the whole fight to re-buff your weapons, heal up, anything you need to do, but you might regret letting him get that ability off rather than staggering him out of it, not to mention the free window to pummel him a bit. In this sense, good play rewards more good play. You don't need to spend that time getting your own act together if you've been playing well up to that point.

Knight Artorias is one of the most iconic fights in Souls history for a reason. He's a phenomenal lore figure, a great tragic character, and an absolute monster of a fight that blazed the trail for so many of the best FromSoft has ever done. No list would be complete without him in the top ten at minimum, and I couldn't see putting him any lower than five. He's that good.

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-Shred

KINDERFELD posted...

The backtracking isn't fun though. Just tedious. You're way overleveled when you have to run back to these areas to buy spells, do covenant stuff etc.

I don't agree. Dark Souls 1 is fantastic because it feels enormous and connected, but once you know where you're going and have shortcuts unlocked, you're probably never more than five minutes away from one end of the world to the other on foot. I love that. It's the #1 thing I miss from DS1. The instant warping is the following games is made necessary by their more linear worlds and by the fact that you can level up at any bonfire rather than needing to come back to Firelink, but the original system of there being no easy "escape to home base," you're out there in the world and your only refuge is this bonfire... I miss that a lot in the newer games.

Also DRUMROLL

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-Shred

Joel95 posted...

all live matters basically means only white lives matter.

I dont think it means only white lives matter. I do think it means what about ME?! What about WHITE PEOPLE?! I matter! Look at MEEEE! which is why you wont see them chime in on this.

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-Shred

Ive never tried SL1 runs but they sound like a good challenge for sure. Maybe someday.

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-Shred

5 - Champion Gundyr (DS3)


Once, a champion came late to the festivities, and was greeted by a shrine without fire, and a bell that would not toll. The Belated Champion was bested by an unknown warrior. He then became sheath to a coiled sword in the hopes that someday, the first flame would be linked once more.
...

The passage of time is always a bit of a nebulous concept in Dark Souls, whether that be when we are ripped into the past by Manus and become the unsung savior of Oolacile, or in the cataclysmic melting pot of time and space that serves as the backdrop for the Ringed City content. Perhaps the most jarring and unexpected of all instances of time-travel occurs right after the fight with Oceiros, when you drop through an illusory wall and end up in a version of Firelink Shrine from the past. You find a world where the fire was not linked in time and the onset of an Age of Dark has begun -- and who else awaits you but the tardy would-be-firelinker himself, Gundyr. We know that the choice at the end of Dark Souls 1 is a false one; link the flame and it will one day fade again, let it go out and it will one day spark from an ember. This implies that after this champion failed to link the fire in time, he was fated to serve as an iudex (judge) for a hopefully more successful champion in the next cycle after being put down by... the same Ashen One who traveled back in time to defeat him in the first place? It's all a bit arcane and hard to discern, but for those who relish the trippier aspects of Souls lore and the concept of light/dark cycles, the Untended Graves and Gundyr make for quite a meal to sink your teeth into, providing a wide base for endless speculation.

However, while I find that kind of thing pretty cool to think about, Gundyr's lore is not what draws me to him. While his lore and "spectacle factor" are all well and good, Champion Gundyr has a worthy claim to being the best pure 1v1 duel in the trilogy. I can't decide if I would quite go that far, but I would have to think long and hard about it when simply taking the flow of combat in isolation. Right when the fight begins, he'll put you on your heels with an impressive step up from the Iudex version of the battle, but you haven't seen anything yet. He pauses, his eyes flash red, and this guy goes absolutely Super Saiyan. You are given virtually no time to breathe, and if you want to down an Estus Flask, you better be sprinting at full speed away from him and hope you bait one of his (ever-so-slightly) slower recoveries and hop right back into it. He can close gaps with the best of them, and every split second counts.

What really makes him stick out to me among the "Rest of the Best" is that when I beat him, I had no idea whatsoever what his health was at. I couldn't spare the glance down to the bottom of the screen. I think I used no estus, maybe one flask. He'd flattened me several times, and in the take where I emerged victorious, it was just me and him right up in each other's grills and the fight ended in what I'm guessing was less than a minute, given that my Carthus Flame Arc lasted a good bit after his death. That, to me, is the ultimate compliment to the fight, where truly being in the groove is this electrifying high-stakes duel where there is no retreat, there is only aggression and outpacing your deadly opponent. In fact, on this playthrough of the trilogy, Gundyr (and later Slave Knight Gael) struck me as the first steps in the development of Sekiro -- not necessarily in raw mechanics, but the relentless flow of the combat and breaking his poise by being just a sliver even more relentless clearly comes from the same inspiration that led to future bosses like Genichiro and Owl.

Gundyr does not quite have the chops in his story or his spectacle to be as phenomenally memorable as the remaining four on this list, but as far as combat is concerned, I couldn't really argue with anyone who thinks he's the best pure duelist in the trilogy. He's got a case, and he's a TON of fun. All that said... damn that kick of his straight to hell.

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-Shred

orcus_snake posted...

TC you spend more tiem doing recaps every couple of post than doing the actual ranking, this feels liek anime filler :V

I do one recap every 50+ posts for a fresh page and it takes about 12 seconds. The rankings posts (smaller groups of ten or one big writeup for the top 12) usually take 20-30 minutes where I can sit down uninterrupted, gather my thoughts, and write


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-Shred

Morning bump, well start the top five today.

How would you guys like the end of the list to be revealed? Obviously I think if I post #2 separately from #1, its a little anticlimactic because everyone will know who won. Should I just post the last two simultaneously? Last three? Open to thoughts.

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-Shred

radical rhino posted...

Artorias was really cool at the time but is a lesser version of a handful of duel fights that came later and are already in the top 10.

He gets a little boost for being one of the coolest lore figures in Souls and being the OG aggressive high-speed duelist that inspired SO many others on this list. Otherwise you're right that mechanically he's probably outclassed by Sulyvahn.

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-Shred

Recap for this page on 92nd-6th:

Centipede Demon
Royal Rat Vanguard
Demon Firesage
Prowling Magus & Congregation
Pinwheel
Belfry Gargoyles
Twin Dragonriders
The Gank Squad
Royal Rat Authority
Blue Smelter Demon
Dragonrider
Ruin Sentinels
Covetous Demon
Mytha, the Baneful Queen
Scorpioness Najka
Giant Lord
Iron Golem
The Bed of Chaos
Lud & Zallen, the Kings Pets
Skeleton Lords
Old Dragonslayer
Deacons of the Deep
Halflight, Spear of the Church
The Last Giant
Moonlight Butterfly
The Pursuer
Flexile Sentry
The Rotten
Guardian Dragon
Demon of Song
Ancient Dragon
Nashandra
The Lost Sinner
Bell Gargoyles
Throne Defender & Throne Watcher
Ancient Wyvern
Looking Glass Knight
Vendrick
Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin
Asylum Demon
Stray Demon
Capra Demon
Taurus Demon
Ceaseless Discharge
Seath the Scaleless
Nito
Crystal Sage
Old Iron King
Yhorm the Giant
Elana, the Squalid Queen
The Dukes Dear Freja
Velstadt, the Royal Aegis
Crossbreed Priscilla
Sanctuary Guardian
Executioners Chariot
Curse-Rotted Greatwood
Gravetender Greatwolf
Dark Sun Gwyndolin
High Lord Wolnir
Gaping Dragon
Chaos Witch Quelaag
Iudex Gundyr
Smelter Demon
Vordt of the Boreal Valley
Aava, the Kings Pet
Old Demon King
Darklurker
Black Dragon Kalameet
Dragonslayer Armor
Oceiros, the Consumed King
Aldrich, Devourer of Gods
Sinh, the Slumbering Dragon
Demon Prince
Great Grey Wolf Sif
Four Kings
Dancer of the Boreal Valley
Sir Alonne
Soul of Cinder
Burnt Ivory King
Ornstein & Smough
Manus, Father of the Abyss
Fume Knight
Darkeater Midir
Abyss Watchers
Twin Princes
Gwyn, Lord of Cinder
Pontiff Sulyvahn

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-Shred

I've gone back and forth on #1 and #2 a lot. One's been set at #1 for the majority of the time, so I will probably stick with my gut, but I could have a change of heart. It's definitely between the two, though.

5th, 4th, and 3rd I've got pretty locked in.

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-Shred

DeadBankerDream posted...

Well the only ones of those that belong in a top 5 (because only my opinion matters) are Champion Gundyr and Knight Artorias, so those will be one and two.

That's funny, I kind of assumed Gundyr making the top 5 would be more controversial than the others. Of course that's only one opinion but still.

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-Shred

WE'VE REACHED THE TOP FIVE! Get in your guesses now. First to get them right wins, uh... probably nothing, but I'll give you a shoutout when the list is done!

Your finalists, in alphabetical order:

-Champion Gundyr (Dark Souls 3)
-Knight Artorias (Dark Souls: Artorias of the Abyss)
-Nameless King (Dark Souls 3)
-Sister Friede (Dark Souls 3: Ashes of Ariandel)
-Slave Knight Gael (Dark Souls 3: The Ringed City)

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-Shred

6 - Pontiff Sulyvahn (DS3)


Sulyvahn was born and raised inside the painting yet had little use for his frigid homeland, since he had not yet experienced loss. Long ago, when Sulyvahn was yet a young sorcerer, he discovered the Profaned Capital and an unfading flame below a distant tundra of Irithyll, and a burning ambition took root within him.
...

Born in the Painted World of Ariandel, Sulyvahn embarked on a journey that likely began with a search for purpose and ended with the conquering of Irithyll and the dismantling of the royal family of gods. Using a combination of his own natural sorceries and the fires of the Profaned Flame, Sulyvahn stands with Saint Aldrich of the Deep and rules Irithyll as a tyrant. Similarly to the comments about how Gwyn's presentation is used to such great effect, Sulyvahn gets a similar treatment as the choir quietly accompanies the glow of his weapons alighting in the distance. His character design is fascinating to look at, too, both graceful and violent. The branches sticking out of him always struck me as a unique and odd choice, but knowing he hails from Ariandel, they make all the sense in the world due to his resemblance to the tree women. The grand majesty of the cathedral in which you fight makes the whole thing a home run in presentation right off the bat.

As combat goes, Sulyvahn falls at about the same junction of your journey as Ornstein and Smough did in DS1, and similarly serves as a fitting test for all you've seen so far. He's a definite step up from anything you've encountered up to that point, and learning to duck, roll, and weave through his series of sweeps and gap-closers is very rewarding. A lot of the same perks from the Dancer fight are true here as well -- the battle is so graceful. Learning the timing to perfectly dodge his five-hit combo and following it up with a punishing attack of your own? That's the kind of stuff where Soulsborne combat really sings. Of course, as soon as you've gotten the hang of it, he channels his inner Darklurker and splits into two, and it's everything I wanted the Darklurker fight to be. You can make a choice to focus on Sulyvahn and disregard the clone, due to both being slightly less aggressive while the clone lives, or burn down the clone as quickly as possible so you can get back to your 1v1 with Sulyvahn. It's a neat gameplay choice where both options feel valid and purposeful. Emerging victorious leads to one of the biggest fist-pumps of DS3.

Sulyvahn isn't the hardest boss in DS3, but that doesn't mean he isn't hard. He's a big challenge presented in a phenomenally memorable fashion, and just as the Abyss Watchers prepared you for Sulyvahn, Sulyvahn is preparing you for aggressive bosses like the Nameless King and Champion Gundyr. If you're keeping score at home, the only five bosses that end up higher than him are all DLC or end-game encounters that pose a masterful challenge on top of the juicy lore. As such, everything about Pontiff Sulyvahn comes together in a cohesive package, one that makes him my favorite mid-game boss in the entire trilogy.

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-Shred

Six left. Fume Knight topped off DS2s offerings at #11. DS1 only has Artorias left. The other five are DS3.

Another entry in a couple hours.

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-Shred

TheGreatEscape posted...

i'm almost 100% certain Gwyn is the only boss you can parry in DS1

Which is an interesting choice, isnt it? I imagine it was done for lore reasons, to show how far he had fallen to being basically on your tier as a hollow, but unfortunately its pretty unremarkable mechanically.

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-Shred

UnholyMudcrab posted...

I think Gwyn might be just a tad too aggressive. It's hard to find healing windows, which makes the temptation to parry even stronger. It's really hard (for me, at least) to resist the urge.

Now that I think about it, can any other boss be parried, or just him? I can't think of any others offhand.

I think on NG, he's very fun and well-paced to not need to parry/riposte. On NG+ when I was getting my platinum, I essentially had to. I'm sure it's technically doable, but it felt impossible without it.

Pretty confident Gwyn is the only DS1 boss that can be riposted at least.

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-Shred

MorganTJ posted...

The lack of fanfare for Gwyn is the best part, it's just sort of sad.

100%. If he had big trumpets and a "mwahahaha, you've come so far only to fail!" cutscene, his fight would not be good enough to carry him this high.

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-Shred

Obligatory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB6sOhQan9Y

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-Shred

7 - Gwyn, Lord of Cinder (DS1)


"Lord Gwyn trembled at the Dark. Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans, and the Dark Lord who would one day be born amongst them, Lord Gwyn resisted the course of nature. By sacrificing himself to link the fire, and commanding his children to shepherd the humans, Gwyn has blurred your past, to prevent the birth of the Dark Lord."
...

Discoverer of the Lord Soul. Eradicator of the everlasting dragons. Subjugator of humanity. Perpetrator of the First Sin. Linker of the Flame. Gwyn is such a key figure in the Dark Souls mythos that attempting to do justice to his role in a short writeup is nigh impossible. Not only can everything that has happened in Dark Souls by the time you face him be traced back to Gwyn, everything that happens in Dark Souls 2 and 3 can as well, despite him being long dead. His fear of the passing of the Age of Fire and unnatural repression of the ages threw the world into a perpetuating loop of madness that only became less and less stable, more and more untethered from tangible time and space. The linear passage of time became more like a loop, the loop became more like a spiral, and we're all along for the ride down the drain that eventually drags the Souls world to the Dreg Heap and the wastes that host the Ashen One's fateful clash with a slave knight. It is a fascinating moral question whether Gwyn's actions were at all justifiable. He is clearly a selfish and self-obsessed man -- can you even justify killing the Everlasting Dragons if you're simply going to attempt to install an "everlasting" age of your own? -- but we've seen enough of the Abyss to at least understand that his fears of an Age of Dark were not without merit. All these years later, lore junkies remain fascinated by Gwyn.

What makes him so memorable, though, is that when you do finally clash with him, he's not a thundering Zeus clone as you expected, hurling lightning bolts from on high. He's gone hollow. He's not awe-inspiring or magnificent, he's a shell of a once great being clinging to the fading embers of his fire. Most powerfully in terms of how he is presented, there is no cutscene, no dialogue, no boasting or bragging, and no bombastic score. He simply does what he feels he must; defends the fire from this intruder as the iconic, haunting piano score accompanies what is a rather tragic and dictionary-definition pathetic duel. It makes Gwyn a standout, and it is the fight that originally sealed Dark Souls in my mind as truly, absolutely special. I wasn't particularly versed on any lore during my first playthrough (who is?), but there is an unspoken, non-verbal communication of the gravity of the situation. Games like Hollow Knight wear the influence of this encounter on their sleeves as well in their own climactic battles. To this day, it gives me chills.

The only thing keeping Gwyn tethered at #7 instead of climbing into the top five is that mechanically, he has a great moveset and provides a good challenge (if you haven't mastered the parry), but we're getting into the true master-classes of combat design that FromSoft only got better at with time. Additionally, "he's fun if you don't parry" is a rather notable black mark, given that if you HAVE gotten that down, he's a total joke of a fight and can even be looped into the same telegraphed attack over and over until death. It doesn't ruin him, but it does keep him out of the tip-top fights.

All told, as I said, Gwyn's fight elevated Dark Souls from "I'm having a blast with this" to "I think this was a top five game ever for me," and unlike the First Flame, my appreciation hasn't faded with time.

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-Shred

The level design and enemy placement is so far better in DS1 that it makes going straight into DS2:SotFS very difficult. Once you get a little ways in to adjust (and you get enough health to make the Effigy mechanic less of a hurdle), the game still has a lot of good stuff in it, but yeah.

And actually, for the above post, I prefer the weightiness of DS1. DS3 has "fluidity and motion." DS2 feels a little bit like you're on skates, imo.

ALSO, DRUMROLL

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-Shred

UnholyMudcrab posted...

Replaying Dark Souls, and I died to the fuckin' Moonlight Butterfly. I don't think I've ever done that before, and I have no idea how it happened.

That things magic hits hard!

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-Shred