Lurker > averagejoel

well if nothing else this topic has been cathartic.

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Irony posted...

You mean by making claymores and IEDs?

those would certainly be effective tools, yes. I remember reading about other specific things they were doing and it seemed interesting. gonna have to look for it now

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Veggeta X posted...

The problem now is people are seeing small businesses as victims so they aren't willing to stand against them at this point and time. There are times to call them out for being evil but during this crisis it is not one of those times.

and there you go twisting my words again.

averagejoel posted...

I wasn't even leveling criticism at small business owners! only at the romanticization of them; at people who bring them up as a talking point.

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Anteaterking posted...

You've taken a premise that has some meat to it, "We should stop romanticizing small business owners" where you could point to practices of small businesses that make things worse for their employees such as avoiding minimum wage restrictions in some states, etc.

while I do take issue with such practices, they don't apply to all small businesses

But instead you've reduced it to an instance of a black and white maxim you hold "All businesses are exploitative".

It just seems like if you believe that, it's silly to be upset that people romanticize small businesses because those people don't believe "All businesses are bad except for small businesses".

the point is that "small businesses", despite not being any less "bad" than other businesses, get a lot of slack simply because they're small. also that the term itself in common usage is extremely vague

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Monkey D. Luffy (One Piece)

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Samurontai posted...

Imagine being anti capitalist in 2020

imagine not being anti capitalist in 2020

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NeoShadowhen posted...

I didnt put words in your mouth.

many people did

So all you are saying is that when other people say oh man, its a shame that those small businesses are getting destroyed, you are annoyed and frustrated because you feel that those businesses also exploit people.

Is that the romanticizing you are referring to?

most of the talking points boil down to that, yes. though the phrasing isn't usually that blunt, and generally involves a lot more cursing protestors and saying things like "the community will suck without this specific business"

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NeoShadowhen posted...

Nothing was unclear about your initial post. It was nice little micro-thought. People are just curious if you can expand on it at all, and are trying to determine if you have any solutions. Or even a concept of what a solution might somewhat look like.

then they probably should have phrased it that way to begin with instead of putting words into my mouth.

I'm just frustrated; this topic was largely for the purposes of venting.

I don't think it's necessarily even a problem in the systemic sense here. the solution would just be... for people to stop romanticizing small businesses

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pinky0926 posted...

So you are self employed, or work through a program?

I mean it sounds like you are a small business owner, although you probably don't have a business premises to burn.

well I do both. but yes, functionally I am a small business owner.

I can see the point that we shouldn't dismiss the riots because "but objects are being destroyed" is a weak rebuttal to social injustice. It just seems odd to level the criticism at people who are self employed.

I wasn't even leveling criticism at small business owners! only at the romanticization of them; at people who bring them up as a talking point.

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pinky0926 posted...

I promise you I didn't bring it up to mock his lifestyle or career choices or whatever. I'm just curious what kind of person he is. How you discuss employment practises with an anarchist versus someone who just wants to reform employment law in a democratic socialist way is obviously going to be different.

fine.

as someone said, I do do music. mostly teaching. I perform and write too though. everything is drastically reduced because of the global pandemic, so I'm largely subsisting on the CERB right now (a temporary UBI-type service for Canadians).

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Balrog0 posted...

You're just assuming it's being brought up in bad faith, though. I don't assume that's Pinky's reasoning, is there some reason I should?

I just generally assume that people putting words into my mouth are not acting in good faith

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NeoShadowhen posted...

What alternative do you suggest to the overall concept of businesses? Please dont tell me you are not here to offer an alternative and are merely pointing out things you think are bad.

answer my question first and I might consider answering yours.

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pinky0926 posted...

It's not about making an ad hominem, it's about providing context to your argument. "All businesses are evil" is a pretty astounding position and needs a little more clarity on where you're coming from if you want to discuss it.

I agree it is a pretty astounding position. but I never said anything was evil.

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yemmy posted...

I'm really beginning to think a lot of you guys really want government bread lines.

are government bread lines worse than privately owned bread lines where not everyone can afford the bread?

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NeoShadowhen posted...

Of course you didnt say those things. You havent said ANYTHING.

I said plenty, and I was not ambiguous.

If you dont clarify your position, other people will fill in the gaps.

what about my initial post was unclear?

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Crash posted...

Like all basement-dwelling commies, he's probably unemployed. He'll never admit it either way, though. It's always hilarious to me when they begrudgingly do actually have a job. How do you like contributing to capitalism, commies?

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Romes187 posted...

im sorry your topic was so stupid i figured you didn't mind

I do mind.

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pinky0926 posted...

Seems pretty relevant to understand where you're coming from politically

it isn't

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pinky0926 posted...

What do you do, averagejoel? Like for money, etc.

Curious. Seems like of all the people to cast your rage at, the mom and pop cafe is not one of them

irrelevant. stay on topic please.

Romes187 posted...

he sells his services as a music teacher i believe

the only true noble profession that should be allowed tbqh

these other people who don't have the artistic skill to sell their creativity are just exploitative murderers

you stay on topic too. also please don't put words into my mouth

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Happy_Tristesse posted...

Dude I get your frustration and where you're coming from. The narrative has been shifted over to small businesses, and it needs to go back to the real issue of police brutality and authoritarianism.

This does not make the grievances of small businesses invalid. Confirmation bias does you no favors. There's a liquor store by my complex owned by a family and prolly friends, immigrants. Every day they provide food to the homeless. If their store was destroyed in a riot, are they still some evil robber barons or is their suffering valid?

Fucking acknowledge the grievances of the people and move on. Being sociopathic about it does us no favors. Get better at changing the narrative back.

where did I say that anyone was an "evil robber baron"? where did I say that anyone's grievances were invalid?

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nemu posted...

Landlords are evil, small family businesses are evil, big businesses are evil, and the government is evil. Do these people think everyone in the world will just move into millions of tiny, self-sufficient hippie communes or something?

where did I say any of that?

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Happy_Tristesse posted...

... what the fuck is a small business to you?

if you had read my first post before responding, you would know

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teepan95 posted...

Businesses in the US are shitty. That doesn't mean businesses the world over are shitty

Capitalism with a sense of ethics, enforceable by law if necessary, can and already does work.

again, I don't care about "shitty." "shitty" is only slightly less vague than "bad." it's meaningless. factually, they are exploitative.

doesn't matter if there's a "sense of ethics." businesses are still inherently exploitative. capitalism is still inherently exploitative.

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darkprince45 posted...

This is a shit take. You guys have some crazy delusional rambling about capitalism. Whats wrong with yall. There are plenty of small businesses owned and operated by hard working people. Some people spent their life savings on it

oink oink

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TheApexPredator posted...

So because you know of one small business that is bad, that means all small businesses are bad too?

no one is saying that they're bad though. I don't care about "bad." "bad" is even more vague than "small business." I'm saying that they're exploitative, which is an objective description of the way they function

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Happy_Tristesse posted...

I don't think you should paint them all with the same brush. Are Delis and Barbershops really where you want to take the anti-capitalist fight to?

Making us look bad, bruh

I'm not painting them at all, and you're the first one to mention Delis and Barbershops

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quoting so it's on this page too

averagejoel posted...

burning random buildings is a demonstrably effective means of protest. it creates a social and economic crisis for the mayor, forcing them to deal with it. it forces accountability

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Romulox28 posted...

socialists hating workers they pretend they do everything for, must be a day that ends in Y

that's quite a bit of a leap there

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Balrog0 posted...

Yeah, most people aren't communists and don't think like you do. I figure you'd be used to it

as shocking as it may seem, talking to a brick wall gets frustrating sometimes

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monkmith posted...

another guy gets killed by the cops, and i've been pulled over for bad tickets, i'm gonna change the system by burning down my neighbors house!

burning random buildings is a demonstrably effective means of protest. it creates a social and economic crisis for the mayor, forcing them to deal with it. it forces accountability

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"small business" is a vague concept. it's nothing but a neoliberal talking point.

businesses are capitalist institutions. they are exploitative regardless of their size. many of them do shitty things to their workers to get by, and many of them get away with it for no reason other than their size

seeing so many people like "tHeSe PrOtEsTs ArE hArMiNg SmAlL bUsInEsSeS" makes me want to pull my own hair out

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I've had sex while listening to Philip Glass before

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the protests are violent

but their violence is in response to the systemic violence that black people face from police

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the only good cops are the ones not doing their job

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seems bad, imo

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neat

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The23rdMagus posted...

No, please do. I just get upset when I'm presented with half an argument and told "do your research", usually in a condescending/dismissive tone. It's not personal, but it is frustrating and I'd actually like to be educated, because who the fuck knows what kind of garbage I'll get on a Google search.

if you've seen my posts on major socioeconomic issues, you'll know that it usually involves me educating some brickhead while that brickhead "argues" against me using various combinations of logical fallacies and blatant lies about me.

using "emotional labour" the way you did does not bode well for the prospects of our exchanges, so forgive me for being jaded.

anyway, Antifar knows what he's talking about when it comes to these issues. I haven't read that book he linked to, but it's probably a good starting point.

alternately, I worked Patrol when I was in university -- a security team which is called "campus police" at some other institutions -- and I do have some thoughts, based on my experiences there, about what things could look like.

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The23rdMagus posted...

I respect your perspective, but I'm not going to use my emotional labor to help you make your point. That's on you.

jesus dude I was literally just typing up a response to your previous post. I guess that's my mistake

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The23rdMagus posted...

I mean to say, how would enforcement of said laws work without a police force?

do you know how laws were enforced before the police existed as an institution? if not, google is your friend.

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The23rdMagus posted...

In a nation of laws, what then?

the institution of the police has not existed forever. they are not necessary in order to have laws.

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AbstraktProfSC2 posted...

When they wanted the 3 other cops to be arrested for not stopping Derek Chauvin murdering George Floyd for one

wanting cops to face consequences for their actions (or, in this case, their inaction) is not the same as asking for cops to "protest the bad cops and call them out."

wanting cops to face consequences is also not the primary goal here

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CanuckCowboy posted...

Cops standing with the citizens and denouncing all the shitty cops is exactly what is needed.

no. abolishing the institution of the police is what's needed.

Any cop that does that when 99.999% of em refuse to deserves to be praised for t.

if cops support the protests, great! good for them! they should know that people are rightfully distrustful of cops. if they want to help the protests, they should organize with other cops and get them to stay home.

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AssultTank posted...

But these cops are protesting the bad cops and calling them out. Just like the acab crowd keeps asking for them to do.

when has "the acab crowd" ever asked cops to do that

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Vicious_Dios posted...

Because hurting innocents, and destroying both public and private property will surely get those who remain indifferent truly sympathetic to your disorganized cause.

Fuck outta here

protests (and I mean actual protests that the cops aren't in control of) are demonstrably an effective means for enacting change.

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the only real way for police to support a protest is to stay at home. if police are part of it, it's not really a protest anymore

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hey TC I noticed that you haven't addressed post 13 yet

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umax555 posted...

Please explain how they're helping the cause

destroying random buildings is a demonstrably effective means of protest

it creates an economic and social crisis that the mayor has to deal with. it forces accountability

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no

umax555 posted...

But I also feel like the riots are stupid, dangerous, and not helping the cause in any way (probably doing the opposite actually).

well they are dangerous. that's 1/3

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