Lurker > XIII_rocks

Denzokuken posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hUCaeHkQfQ

This is perfection

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

Bah

Come on Rayman do the business

It's like the 3rd best game in the bracket

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"What are you doing? You've never even met this person."

OK sorry Cloud, jesus

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I was really pleasantly surprised by Cloud in original FF7. He's not as morose in it as later interpretations of the character make him appear. Conversely Sephiroth is extremely disappointing imo. I only really like him the first time you meet him at the northern crater, he had a few good lines I think? I can't remember. Great design though.

Red is probably my favourite character too, with I think Barret second and Cloud third.

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That opening theme really is a thing of beauty

I started up just now

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I ordered.

Had Eggs Benedict with a Hash Brown side.

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Alright downloading this later
I'm ready

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Was working until Sunday on reduced hours. Now working from home creating online lessons.

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3 Pancakes from batter I made the night before last
Was still pretty good

Topping: golden syrup

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This is fine

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Chocolate Cheerios

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The one I've played and enjoyed, then in matches where I've played neither; I vote the one I'd like to play/the one from a genre I like/bracket/interesting contest entrant/funny/any random reason.

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Eh I guess that could be worse
Not great though

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That was the best episode since Chicanery tho

Lalo is so fucking good

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Wow
Great episode

Anyone else watching?

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

Yeah I'd say be careful what you wish for on "more matches" like that in the future, WWE are great at running things into the ground. Part of me just hopes these two matches just stay as, like, historical curiosities for the rest of time.

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

Cena's instagram is now all pictures of Bray/The Fiend

https://www.instagram.com/johncena/

Also that match had me from the moment they had the Vince puppet appear to the "dun dun DUN" thing with matching zooms
Absolutely sold

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

MyMainAccount posted...

Personally, regardless of all this fuss, I found Undertale to be one of the best games Ive played this decade. It had a lot of heart and it made me laugh more than a few times. The extreme level of vitriol still here, Im surprised that Im actually a little surprised by how serious it is, but I am. Its a shame a game about looking past the surface and finding common ground through understanding is getting so many people to dismiss it without a second look. And hey, if you just arent interested, obviously thats fine. But dont let these polls dictate your taste, youre just making yourself angry and unhappy.

Sad thing is: I actually like the game quite a lot. Not even BSing. It was good, even though I've never been good at bullet hells. Had a lot of interesting and fun ideas and it was so...confidently made somehow. And good soundtrack.

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

TheRock1525 posted...

Or that it's okay to just admit that you hated a rally because something you didn't like won instead of trying to find some sort of "no this is DIFFERENT" reasoning for it.

Nobody needs to "try and find" that reasoning, it's self-evident. You were here in 2013.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

1) a very weak entrant becomes god-tier

I dont think this happens though? Tons of rallies were tried that would just get a bad character to the top because its "funny" i wont deny this is a percentage of undertale and draven votes but those votes wouldnt be there without the giant mass appeal of games

2) it brings a legion of trolls and bad feeling to the board with it (and no, b8ers aren't innocent, I'm certainly not)

This is kinda outside of "rallies" tho. This is contest season in general. Like undertale probably broughy less garbage users to the board than a 2006 contest did.

3) the rallied entrants actually wins the contest

Why rally if you're not aiming for the top?

4) most people aren't in on the fun

Man undertale was a blast, and probably the most fun this board has been. I mean the majority of people on this board seem to like it, or at least, played and not hate it.

5) they don't match b8 preference (again, nebulous, since even some people who enjoyed LoL started to get ticked off with Draven)

This kinda is the "not the character I like" argument so I'm not going to really touch it

OK I'm glad to see a post that actually gets into it a bit.

1) I'm not sure I understand. The rally made Draven and Undertale top-tier entrants in that contest when they were both handily losing their R1 matches. Are you denying that? I'm not saying the intent was to deliberately make a weak character strong but that is what happened.

2) The rally specifically caused that, especially with Draven. And when the board is quieter even a few trolls make a bigger difference than in 2006. We're talking about why people feel the way they do. It can't be separated - Draven's win and the shit it caused are intrinsically linked.

3) Sure, but, again, we're talking about perception and feeling towards rallies. Not the aim of the ralliers/rallied themselves.

4) Undertale as a contest entrant is not Undertale the game. And the game only just came out when the rally happened so less of the board had played it.

5) Absolutely is, yes, because like I said it's not not a factor, just not the only factor.

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

Hbthebattle posted...

Again, you're assuming bad faith by eliminating the possibility that Draven or Undertale voters were genuine in their love for the character or game. You've said multiple times that you think Undertale voters at the time must have been "lying" in thinking that the game was the "best game ever". That is absolutely still viewing the voters to be voting in bad faith.

No, because voting for something because you think it's funny is totally normal and not at all "bad faith". You're still not understanding the Undertale point but that's ok since we went over that yesterday.

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snake_5036 posted...

Pointing out a difference in motivation for two rallies =/= not supporting one rally

It seems the only side that lacks nuance and understanding is the side that's been wrong for 5 years and counting.

Ah well done you've successfully avoided hb's ire with this vital information - I'm sure he was just about to line up a post castigating you so well done

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Hb since snake is parading around this topic with an Undertale quote in his signature and trying to point out a difference between rallies, will you now criticise him and his hypocrisy, or are you too busy not properly reading my posts?

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Hbthebattle posted...

Why do you assume that every Draven voter was voting in bad faith? You did it with Undertale's voters, too. Why do you assume that they're just trying to wreck the context for your own amusement?

Where did I assume that? I'm not saying "joke" like they're doing it to screw b8, I mean "joke" like Draven was literally a meme more than anything else. It's "Man it'd be hilarious [to us and us alone] if Draven won this!" not "it'd be hilarious to piss off all those gamefaqs nerds!".

Hopefully you now stop with the weird assumptions and misreadings - I see now I'll need to make my points extra clear.

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Hbthebattle posted...

If most people weren't "in on the fun", as you put it, no rally would have won. You're saying, once again, Board 8 was not in on the fun, but the contest wasn't made for Board 8. If that was the case, why would unregistered people even be allowed to vote?

The hell is this?

We're talking about the reaction of users on b8 to rallies.

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Hbthebattle posted...

Snake isn't exclusionary like Draven is (Snake is a well-established gaming icon),

What point are you trying to make here? Draven is an inside joke (admittedly an inside joke for a very large fanbase, but an inside joke nonetheless). Snake is definitely not. That particular point is nothing to do with sheer preference.

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For the record I would prefer if my words/posts weren't used in the pca

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Let me just restate/expand a little then:

Rallies become "bad" when:

1) a very weak entrant becomes god-tier
2) it brings a legion of trolls and bad feeling to the board with it (and no, b8ers aren't innocent, I'm certainly not)
3) the rallied entrants actually wins the contest
4) most people aren't in on the fun
5) they don't match b8 preference (again, nebulous, since even some people who enjoyed LoL started to get ticked off with Draven)

Draven did all of these things. Undertale did all of these things but did some of them...less. L-Block didn't do 2 or 4 (or 5, obviously). No other rally has hit all 5 of those.

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

Hbthebattle posted...

So, essentially: Snake rallying is ok because I like Snake and he's already popular.

Holy fuck.

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Hbthebattle posted...

How big of victim complex around this do you have? Pointing out that you have a double standard with rallies is not persecution in any way, shape, or form.

But you're clearly more interested in attacking people who are against it, branding them as hypocrites, than actual discussion. That became clear when you chose to "boil down" what I said.

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

SantaRPidgey posted...

So its a scale thing? So David Hayter rallying for the contest was bad? Thats your claim?

My post covered that already.

Snake isn't exclusionary like Draven is (Snake is a well-established gaming icon), didn't turn the board into any more of a toxic soup than Draven's rally already had done, and didn't actually win. Also Snake didn't have the Draven downtime stink around him.

And also, yes, Snake is heavily favoured on the board. It's not not a factor, it'sjust not the only factor.

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

Hbthebattle posted...

Dude, you said on discord that Undertale's fans were liars and that implying that Board 8 screencaps whining about the game helped push the rally further was "victim blaming". Don't try to take the moral high road in talking about nuance.

I laid out a multitude of reasons and example and you dismissed it with a post that LITERALLY STARTED with "that list boils down to". You are absolutely anti-nuance here.

You have no interest in discussion, just persecuting and accusing people who weren't in love with Undertale's rally. That is the stall you have set out here. It's like a weird type of tone policing, where everyone not in favour of this rally you enjoyed must be persecuted and not discussed with in real terms.

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NFUN posted...

Undertale is very esoteric yes. Truly inscrutable

I mean
It was a cult indie game released literally weeks before the contest started with a small but passionate fanbase and not much mass appeal. The average person sees Mario in a contest and they're like "oh, Mario". They see Undertale and at that time you'd be more likely to say "wtf is Undertale".

Am I using the word wrong?

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Hbthebattle posted...

That list literally boils down to

...ok so

XIII_rocks posted...

This is the shit I'm talking about
Wtf is this? Is there no room for like nuance or difference?

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Uglyface2 posted...

It's a vague term that doesn't really mean anything.

Partly this

I think the behaviours that are most often described as toxic masculinity are... a problem to society, I guess? The answer to the TC's question is, in theory, yes - if something is toxic, it's bad - but without a proper definition it's too nebulous.

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

XIII_rocks posted...

No it's not. Melee was already a very strong game and was largely being rallied to deal with an even bigger rally. It rallying its way past Chrono Trigger is annoying for some people, sure, I get it, but it's hardly some ridiculous thing for SSBM to beat CT here. And, ultimately, SSBM's rally failed.

It has been very clear for like 7 years - for some, as many as 13 - what kind of rally this site and this community will accept and what kind it won't. Those lines in the sand are very clearly drawn by now.

1) don't be a really shitty weak entry that suddenly gets propelled to god-tier. This is made especially worse if you then completely abandon it later.
2) don't have a trollish fanbase on this board/don't help turn the board into a toxic soup
3) don't be too esoteric and exclude the majority of people, especially the majority of people who play close attention to the contests.

L-Block admittedly does #1 but is absolutely not guilty of 2 and 3 since almost everyone was in on the joke.
SSBM doesn't fulfill any of them.
Undertale very obviously does 1 and 3, and during the contest there's an argument for 2 as well.
But it was still better than Draven, which ticks all three boxes a dozen times over.

Admittedly the list isn't exhaustive and there are slight exceptions; Draven had other stuff on top of those such as the downtime during Link/Draven/Shephard fuelling the hate for his rally, but that's a unique situation so I couldn't list it. And Mario is in no way esoteric but some people turned on him in 2018 after he rallied his way past Samus. But he still only lost to Cloud by a hundred or so, so who knows how much that was actually a factor.

Probably you could add "don't actually win the contest" to that too. If Undertale lost to SSBM its rally would be more accepted, and SSBM's would be less accepted. Starcraft's in 2004 is mostly remembered fondly, even though it actually cheated, and part (not all) of that I'd say is because it didn't actually win or even threaten to win.

Acting like all rallies are equal when they all have very different effects on people is silly. And yes, sheer game preference is a factor, I won't pretend it isn't.

I don't see how I can lay it out any more clearly than I did here. If the actually sane "there's no middle ground" people want to actually refute this stuff then great, otherwise it's just thoughtless.

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

SantaRPidgey posted...

I'm saying just because things have differences doesnt make them fundamentally different concepts

I mean duh? I'm not against - or for - the "concept" of rallies. I'm not sure anyone is? It's had some effect on literally every match ever. It is just a thing that happens. It's like being for or against the concept of match pictures.

It is laughable that a match with a vote difference of less than a thousand between two strong entrants is even remotely comparable to an esoteric sub-Chie character becoming an unstoppable god. Those are just so obviously not the same thing, or even close to the same thing, and the idea that you cannot enjoy one and dislike the other makes no sense.

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Rthan posted...

loses...either your for something, or against it

This is the shit I'm talking about
Wtf is this? Is there no room for like nuance or difference? Why do you have to go straight for the perjorative "nope you're just a massive hypocrite despite the clear differences"

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I'm not saying you have to be against rallies, against the Draven rally or any other rally. I'm saying maybe stop disregarding people's dislike for them so flippantly. It's pig-headed at this point.

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Well yeah of course you would simply ignore very obvious, reasonable factors

Like the most obvious one is how esoteric it is. The vast majority of people didn't play Undertale. What was essentially an in-joke took over the contest, and shut out the majority. But L-Block was fine.

Are you really saying you don't understand the difference between those two things?

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

SantaRPidgey posted...

Outside influences is like, a defining feature of the contest, so yeah its pretty darn wild when people are upset by it.

I made a post on the last page that clearly defines why some rallies are ok and some rallies aren't

I think the worst part of the discourse has been posts like this where the difference between rallies can be clearly pointed out like multiple times and pro-rally people are like "NO", and stay on the line that they must all be equal and it must just be some hypocritical double-standard.

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shane15 posted...

Either that or nerf the suplex.

...

I've been on GameFAQs for over 15 years and this is officially the worst, most blasphemous post I have ever seen

Good job dude

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It still holds up tbh like pj said

I don't see a need for it to be remade, but I'd still play it

Code Veronica remake I would play to death though

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aw man

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.

Hbthebattle posted...

Melees is absolutely the same thing, it just didnt make the finish line.

No it's not. Melee was already a very strong game and was largely being rallied to deal with an even bigger rally. It rallying its way past Chrono Trigger is annoying for some people, sure, I get it, but it's hardly some ridiculous thing for SSBM to beat CT here. And, ultimately, SSBM's rally failed.

It has been very clear for like 7 years - for some, as many as 13 - what kind of rally this site and this community will accept and what kind it won't. Those lines in the sand are very clearly drawn by now.

1) don't be a really shitty weak entry that suddenly gets propelled to god-tier. This is made especially worse if you then completely abandon it later.
2) don't have a trollish fanbase on this board/don't help turn the board into a toxic soup
3) don't be too esoteric and exclude the majority of people, especially the majority of people who play close attention to the contests.

L-Block admittedly does #1 but is absolutely not guilty of 2 and 3 since almost everyone was in on the joke.
SSBM doesn't fulfill any of them.
Undertale very obviously does 1 and 3, and during the contest there's an argument for 2 as well.
But it was still better than Draven, which ticks all three boxes a dozen times over.

Admittedly the list isn't exhaustive and there are slight exceptions; Draven had other stuff on top of those such as the downtime during Link/Draven/Shephard fuelling the hate for his rally, but that's a unique situation so I couldn't list it. And Mario is in no way esoteric but some people turned on him in 2018 after he rallied his way past Samus. But he still only lost to Cloud by a hundred or so, so who knows how much that was actually a factor.

Probably you could add "don't actually win the contest" to that too. If Undertale lost to SSBM its rally would be more accepted, and SSBM's would be less accepted. Starcraft's in 2004 is mostly remembered fondly, even though it actually cheated, and part (not all) of that I'd say is because it didn't actually win or even threaten to win.

Acting like all rallies are equal when they all have very different effects on people is silly. And yes, sheer game preference is a factor, I won't pretend it isn't.

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Averia posted...

There are sites where Fortnite would stomp Zelda into the ground.
So i'm not sure comparing to other sites is particularly meanginful.

It is when I'm dealing with a post that says "GameFAQs' only "right time" is the 90s". To which I say - ok, fine, so if I'm wrong and Undertale is more than just a "right place, right time cult hit", where else would it be crowned "best game ever"? Would the fanbase still mobilize to push it over the line as it did then?

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Hbthebattle posted...

Ah yes famously hated character Mario never won a match since his 2002 rally. or just look at the double standard for Melee's rally, because if Undertale didn't win, it would have.

That's not the same thing and you know it

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Hbthebattle posted...

I think its absolutely possible it could, or at least do very, very well. Remember the reaction Sans getting just a Mii Costume got? With places with a younger demographic than this one, Undertale is still extremely popular and beloved.

Sounds pie in the sky to me. Could you define "very, very well"?

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Undertale is still one of my favorite games at least. Not my FAVORITE game. Maybe top 5, top 10 at worst.

I lose track. Are you LtM?

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So on other sites, do you think Undertale would win a "best game ever" or "game of the decade" contest?

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Not to be confused with XIII_Stones.