Lurker > masterplum

SirChris posted...

https://news.gallup.com/vault/316130/gallup-vault-americans-narrowly-1964-civil-rights-law.aspx

You lead on civil rights, you don't follow.

By passing protections for people it makes it much harder for hatred to remain and fester .

Literally more than 30% of the country was against the civil rights act at the time of its passing.

There is a gigantic difference between 60% approve and 30% approve

Dancedreamer posted...

lol acting like Trump and DeSantis won't run on it anyway. Nobody's going to be like "I was going to vote for Biden, but he wants to let trans people play high school and college sports. So I'm going to vote for Trump." Because those people are already voting for Trump. Anyone who has that strong of an opinion on it is 100% a trump supporter already.

Except that isn't true at all?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/1/1/AANz_VAAEW6L.png

28% of voters vs 46% of voters

You have 18% of voters who oppose transgender professional sports and support joe biden

SirChris posted...

What does this "compromise" even compromise on lol

The problem is it isn't a popular opinion and he doesn't want to get blown out by Trump or desantis campaigning on it

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/0/6/AANz_VAAEW6G.png

That was a poll I found looking because I was curious why Biden would flip on this, but I doubt polling has moved that much.

I just don't see the point in ever signing up for a game if the plan is to sheep the entire way through.

Like sheep D1? Sure. Sheep the entire game? Why even bother showing up

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Getting rid of a kill would be nice.

Yeah ok

##Unvote
##Vote:Kirby

I think that post by kirby also defaults into the "Know too much" I was looking for.

And kirby has been triggering everyones scumdar

And Wallz hesitating on voting makes sense if he is on the same team as kirby.

We can Death tomorrow.

I have a question isquen

Isquen posted...

Plum: I will ask a direct question of you. I know you think Lopen is scummy, but do you think Lea has her hands clean too? Because I've slept on it but something was a bit weird with response timing day 1.

In point of fact...
##vote: Lea

Why did you watch lea N1 if you thought she was scummy?

This is probably superfluous but figure I might as well do my due diligence here

(By bad I mean scummy not actually bad. I don't think Death or Kirby has played poorly this game regardless of alignment)

htaeD posted...

Welp guess plum is scum for opening the can of independents.

Though honestly I'd say Sbell was probably (or at least partially) killed because his interaction with Ulti sorta townconfirmed him. Ben is the one thats giving me more to think about.

I just can't get over how not town of a post Death made at the start of the day

Kirby321 posted...

Plum, you never addressed the point Lopen brought up.

Did strongman never cross your mind at all? Why did you automatically default to one of those kills being third-party?

And this post by kirby is equally bad. This completely looks like one scum team hunting the other

I'm going to be honest. These players are both bad and we can kill either of them

Going to look back at the start of day 2 real quick before end of day

SirChris posted...

You are using nothing but hypothetical to in support of a bigoted bill. You crawl to the safety of science but if you had actually a shred of intellectual coherence it would be obvious to you that science does not support these measures against trans youth.

I literally posted a study with 80 sources

SirChris posted...

I don't have to prove a negative.

I dont have to argue with hypotheticals?

Thorn posted...

Supposing this is the case, wouldn't we have already seen this given trans athletes are already allowed to compete in certain sports where the governing bodies have said it's fine?

As been stated, Trans athletes are still extremely rare. As it starts to happen more you are going to see this become more and more plausible

SirChris posted...

Plum got real quiet about science I see.

Did you ever post a source?

Peace___Frog posted...

If the government should have it already, then why are the genital exams necessary to begin with?

I feel like I need more information about the law that was passed because that does sound unnecessary

Peace___Frog posted...

I've had physicians inspect mine before.

But plum, even setting that aside - are you really ok with that then being reported to the government?

Hmm

I don't see how it reveals any information they shouldn't already ...

Hmmmmmmmm

It might have changed in the last decade but it was pretty standard every physical I went to

ViolentAbacus posted...

Anyway, I'd be also okay with a Death lynch, but he's been a lot more inoffensive than KiDays?

That is part of the argument. Death has been... around

You made me check to see of I was crazy

https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/expert-testicles.html#:~:text=A%20testicular%20exam%20can%20make,part%20of%20a%20physical%20exam.

Kenri posted...

I'm sorry but what the fuck?

Is that not part of a normal physical for you?

And genital inspections is a ridiculous strawman. Pediatricians inspect genitals every visit. That it totally normal if they are signing off on it

A high schooler would have gone through puberty.

Younger than that I agree it shouldn't matter much

SirChris posted...

Great, but given actual science has come back and said "this isn't conclusively an advantage" then I am sticking with science and saying they should be allowed into youth sports. What international bodies do with their pro sports at a private entity level is more up to debate and also up to them, but given science has given me a big shrug emoji and that trans athletes lose all the time just like cis athletes and win sometimes just like cis athletes it seems clear to me that this is clear government overreach and bigoted.

Arent most youth sports mixed gender until post puberty anyways?

LightningStrikes posted...

Shooting, Archery, many winter sports. All of which have men and womens categories. If you really are interested in truth maybe that will change your mind.

I was curious about this and looked it up, and on a quick glance it looked like archery was not equal and male categories had stronger world records.

SirChris posted...

They aren't men though.

But they arent exclusive. Women have competed in mens sports before.

Samurai7 posted...

He's already stated that if the 'scientific' community believes certain categories of people are generically superior that the other classes of people don't deserve a chance to compete with the superior demographic. I don't get what the point of debating him anymore is.

The fuck is this. Everyone can compete in mens sports. Nobody is not getting a chance to compete

CelesMyUserName posted...

plum keeps using the word men in place of trans women as if they mean the same thing huh

also repeatedly using the word "biological woman" despite it repeatedly being pointed out that's a transphobic dog whistle and not an actual term

How exactly are you supposed to say that term. I was just using the term from the scientific paper

LightningStrikes posted...

Women arent a minority. Also while women are marginalised you are basically just doing hierarchy of discrimination nonsense. All while still ignoring the simple matter that it is not true for many sports and many transgender athletes at most levels!

At what sport does it not matter? If chess can have a female league then literally any sport can.

And its not like this even shuts individuals out of sports. Mens teams can have female players. Vanderbilt had a female kicker on their American football team at one point.

SirChris posted...

Every time I look into this, especially at a youth level, I get back that it is inconclusive if there is a competitive advantage.

They don't care about youth sports, Plum. It's a useful lie. There are barely any trans athletes to begin with.

I dont care what they think. These are two completely independent things.

There arent many trans athletes, but there have been some extremely high profile ones such as the NCAA wrestling champion. People are teetering extremely close to Womens sports dont matter in the name of transgender rights here which is just slandering one minority for another.

Serena Williams, the greatest female tennis player of all time, got smoked by the #200 ranked mens player. You cant just brush it all aside and say its just too bad for biological women. People have been saying that for the last 6000 years

I think Kirby is a good lynch but death is better. His cult comment makes zero sense from a town perspective

SirChris posted...

Yeah I just wish you would use your brain to realize that these type of laws aren't about youth sports and are about making it more palatable to target "transgenderism"

the science on this is pretty much "it's minimal except at the extreme highest levels if an effort is made to make it matter" and then you run into different hormone bans at like, the international level anyway.

also you never responded to my quote from someone who helped sign the bill into law that this ends racism.

Chris, I am capable of having two opinions in my head at the same time.

I both believe

1. The vast majority of laws targeting transgender individuals are bad and are hurting transgender individuals
2. Science has indicated transgender athletes in female sports have competitive advantages over biological females which is unfair to biological females who are also a historically marginalized group

Both of these things can be true

SirChris posted...

So the problem is the difficulty?
No plum, that's not the problem.

Obviously if you segregate it enough it no longer is a sport. A classification of one person is not helpful.

But sport is entirely based on segregation. Age, gender, weight, nationality are all segregations commonly used

Samurai7 posted...

Hypothetically if there were statistical data that proved a particular ethnicity were worse at athletics would you support support segregation by race?

That is much harder to segregate. Are you doing dna tests on everyone? How much of an ethnicity is necessary to classify someone as an ethnicitity?

If there was some long lost city of Atlantis people who were 8 feet tall, then yes I think segregating them out would make sense, but isnt really a practical problem right now.

Honestly moreso than anything else Im pro science. I have been pretty distraught by the attack on truth by the far right.

So regardless of politics I believe in experts.

LightningStrikes posted...

The answer on sports and prisons is literally the answer in place. Experts decide on a case-by-case basis. No reason for governments to try and shoehorn in blanket bans. I thought you were a libertarian?

Isnt that exactly what I just posted? Experts decided there was a competitive advantage by trans-males?

It should be pretty easy to confirm poison. If corrik protects me again tonight I basically can't die.

If I do then huge red flags

Hmm

As far as I know nothing bad happened to me

Samurai7 posted...

Yeah. Telling women they aren't good enough to compete with men is the non-misogynistic take.

Is this a serious post?

Look at world records in anything

Huh

Backup and doctor 2 I have a hard time believing also exist

Hmm

And I want to reiterate that in 99% of cases this does not matter at all, and it is absolutely wrong for people to attack transgender individuals for living their lives.

But in two situations I can think of, Sports and Prisons, there are serious conundrums that dont have easy answer and you cant hand wave away the issues and act like everyone conscerned about them is transphobic.

Caring what bathroom someone uses all alone = Transphobic
Being concerned that disadvantaged group is in danger of losing their safe space =/= transphobic

TheRock1525 posted...

Do we have weight classes in sprinting?

No, but sex is a masssive advantage.

Even in sports where there isnt an obvious advantage, mens world records are dramatically different from womens.

I was curious and checked, the world record for marathon running is 12 minutes faster for men.

The frustrating thing about these arguments is they often feel like they boil down to womens sports dont matter anyways so who cares. Why even have the WNBA exist? Its just worse basketball than the NBA. Its a very misogynistic take.

Consider that some events that have absolutely zero difference from sex like Chess still have womans leagues. Why? Its not because women or men are better, but to give a traditionally repressed minority a chance to succeed.

What you dont want to have happen, is the 100th best mens tennis player in the world decide to just sign up for a womans tournament to win, so obviously you need some sort of rule against that. So what exactly then is the rule? Even if you dont care about competitive balance which I think is a mistake, how do you stop griefers from ruining womens sports? (Because you know Republicans are going to start doing this for no reason other than to be asses)

Samurai7 posted...

I never understood why this matters anyway. Short guys have a disadvantage in basket ball. Should we have separate basketball divisions based on height? I mean really so much of someone's athletic potential is genetic. Why is that only important when it comes to gender?

We have weight classifications in many sports

SirChris posted...

Plum what would you do if a grown man asked to see your child's genitalia in the name of this bill?

What is the process around this? I assume you could get it certified by a doctor

SirChris posted...

How do you enforce this, Plum.

I have no idea

its why I said its a tricky one

Paratroopa1 posted...

lol plum just throwing down some casual gc shit

gc?

This is just science

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#:~:text=Males%20have%20much%20higher%20arterial,oxygen%20carrying%20advantage%20over%20females

Peace___Frog posted...

If I were a parent in Kansas and had children of any gender or age, I would definitely not want them to play sports right about now.

Sports is such a tricky one.

We know that even with hormone treatments biological males have advantages over biological females

There really isnt a good answer to this one.

i found that write up quite helpful actually.

I like the arguments against Kirby. I think death is still a better option but I wont be mad at a Kirby lynch. I agree the 6 vanilla thing was kind of odd

Isquen posted...

##unvote
##vote: Dumey

I don't care how pro-town that role looks; if it's too good to be true, it probably is.

Its very possible its fake, but I think its a bit early to call it fake for existing

Yeah, he claimed when his result was stolen

for some reason

So if I save dumey and dumey targets me we are just invincible forever?

Hmm

Leafeon13N posted...

Dumey showing up claiming a scum role unprompted.

If town has a vig unclaimed then pop him.

A scum role that can redirect shots with two teams would be one of the most broken roles of all time.

If town has no vig this potentially fills the same role with two shots a night