Lurker > HanOfTheNekos

Like, here's the question I have:

Who here believes that Scum has an unblockable kill AND some redirection, when so far we've had, what, Cop, BP Doc, Neighborizer, and Weak Tracker. It's weird for them to have two roles in place to counter that.

Chaeix posted...

but it's really not

you have scum doublevoter, redirector/bd, likely godfather, and we're assuming some kind of unblockable kill. it's probably a 4 person scum team because 3/14 seems weak to me.

does town really only have 3 power against that?

I can't respond to this right now because I need to watch show but yeah, your analysis makes assumptions and I think ignores other things to consider.

Chaeix posted...

So really Han, my point overall, and you've kind of walked me to the exact conclusion, is that I could be scum in 2 scenarios - Option A and Option B as you've presented.

You voted me despite Option A not really making sense to you, because you didn't think Ulti was BP, and this scenario was, in your words, premised on Ulti being BP.

And you voted me despite Option B not making sense overall, because that means there's like 7 vanillas.

So I just don't understand how you actually came to a conclusion that I could have been scum, given what you were saying you believed at the time, and the game state.

I voted you because I was annoyed and you said something that was also bad.

Chaeix posted...

okay cool.

but again, Death being the NK means ctes is scum, and if ctes and I are both scum (as you were using option B as a scenario in which I was scum), then the game has like 7 vanillas. so option B just seems unrealistic.

Half the game being vanillas is fine balance, actually.

I haven't thought about it, but option b probably doesn't necessitate you both as Scum.

Suppose Ctes is Town and also Scum shot Death! Not very likely.

Anyway, the reason I'm engaging with these trains of thought at all in the first place is because we have claims that seems at odds with each other.

Chaeix posted...

oh you meant death instead of ctes for option B if i'm reading this correctly? you said ctes

ah yes, lol

I've actually mixed them up multiple times while typing it so far

But yes Ctes, I am sorry for taking it too far with the whole eyes thing, I intentionally went overboard with something that caused me to cringe heavily irl because I wanted to drive in the point.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


If anybody has seen me an Lopen in a game recently and thinks I enjoyed it, then they're absolutely barmy.

Chaeix posted...

option a - but you yourself have admitted that you don't believe ulti is bp to the best of my recollection?

option b - i'm afraid i'm just not following here and will need to be walked through this

It's a theory. I didn't believe Ulti was Doctor yesterday. It's possible Scum didn't, either! Or that he just isn't. But yeah, BP Doctor is protection that is just unkillable except through lynches. It's a bit beyond the pale of OP.

HOWEVER I could be wrong, in which case it's a total possibility.

B - Last game, Peaf coasted by the entire game as Town-confirmed because he didn't vote to save himself. Death didn't vote Chris to save himself. It's possible Scum saw that and thought that he'd be Towncleared.

Or they shot Death planning to claim vig on it since it is such a bad Scum shot.

Chaeix posted...

my comment was less about the content of what you were saying and more that you literally brought up "scum me wouldn't do this" which is kind of the definition of wifom

and yes you're correct that most mafia is wifom

No, the definition of WIFOM is "I know you would think I'd do such as Scum, therefore I'd do the opposite" and then it repeats.

A defense is just a defense.

Chaeix posted...

But if I was a scum scanner, I still would have to have targeted Crescent to know she moved.

So me having information on Crescent, and being scum scanner, are mutually exclusive concepts.

The other option is that it's possible that Ulti is BP and that Scum shot him.

Or that Scum shot Ctes.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Han, I voiced that I thought you could be scum and given what I'm playing a game here where the purpose of one faction is to lie, I want to be able to do this to any player in game regardless of how town confirmed anyone might believe they are without being insulted like this.

You can tell me why I should think otherwise of course, but accusing me of saying you would actively harm yourself is rude and also a bit against the spirit of the game.

It's the truth though. I hate defending myself against bad arguments and that's what Chris had for me. If I'm in a Scumchat with Chris and he does that to me, I both engage less because I know it's not a big deal and also I don't endorse it because it would mean I'm willingly diving into engagement that I hate.

But here's the response without aggression:

I am most Townish based on Chris's flip because me and Chris engaging like that can't be Scum/Scum. Ergo, you not putting me on your townlist makes me suspicious of you because it's nonsensical.

Chaeix posted...

If I didn't target Crescent I couldn't have known she moved.

A Watcher would know.
A psychic would know.

Like there's options.

Thing is JC, you're probably just Town. But it's fallacious to say that any action on you is based on you scanning BCT for a point of fact. That's the key point I'm what I've said.

The other key point is that Scum with redirector/bus driver and unblockable doesn't quite make sense.

Chaeix posted...

Han, what are your thoughts on the game state logic that I presented - beyond the fact that I stated things from the perspective of my operating assumptions.

Like, I need you to explain why I'm scum despite the N1 actions.

Crescent being the N1 kill requires Ulti being Doctor and Ctes being Vig. Did you for sure target Crescent? There are possibilities where Scum would.

Truth is, JC, right now I'm a little annoyed and I'm sorry for that. But if any simple defense is called WIFOM, then everything you're saying about game state right now is just WIFOM so I shouldn't even engage.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I did not ever do this.

If I'm scummates with Chris, it means I willingly endorsed and engaged with dealing with shit that I *hate*. So yes, you did say it.

I guess you also said I deserved an academy award for acting, so good and bad, sure.

Chaeix posted...

N1 myself and Ulti targetted Crescent. Ctes claimed the other NK.

Like, you can't blame me for hopping on sentences like this when JC is saying, for a fact, there was a second NK. Even if it is most likely that Ctes is Town, it's still odd phrasing.

ctesjbuvf posted...

And this is just needlessly insulting.

JC is not wrong about mentioning wifom. I do not want to think you would not use these arguments in bad faith but that also just means it's problematic to bring up ever.

You can't call every defense WIFOM.
Needlessly insulting is you accusing me of self-harm.

I had a post typed up but lost it to refresh so e/e

There's a reason Lea is who I trusted to keep sanity and why she's not engaging with this all right now. It's dumb and probably all wrong and in spite of JC's knowledge of Scum's beliefs being something that SHOULD be pressed.

##Unvote: JC

Whatever I was working on in my head is out of it so I'll return to this later.

UltimaterializerX posted...

##Unvote
##Vote: Han

Ive seen enough. Accusing the only protection, uncountered protection no less, of being mafia is just atrocious. There is no way you actually make that play as town.

JC didn't claim protection.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I'm not saying what you're saying can't be true and that you can't be town, don't act like you aren't an established enough player that it's unreasonable to still suspect you. For all I know you could be legitimately frustrated as scum with Chris.

I think getting this frustrated that someone is suspecting you (or hell, not putting you on their certain town list) despite that interaction ridiculous to state as either alignment. In itself I always think players pointing to behavior specific reasons for why they can't be scum is super suspicious. Like I guess I'm sorry if you're being honest here, but I want to be able to voice my suspicions even if you don't think they make sense.

I'm not frustrated that someone suspects me, I'm frustrated that someone suspects me because "1+1=3".

I know it's a part of these games, but I don't play them to be accused with arguments that actively avoid intellect.

Chaeix posted...

well let it be known that Han is currently voting the only other claimed town scanner who targeted the scum n1 kill target

this is clearly an excellent vote

han/Isquen are probably where Id be comfortable voting at the moment but honestly I feel worse about Han after this whole deal. Like really for me to be scum relies on ctes actually being the N1 scum night kill, which means that both the claimed town vig and weak scanner are scum and the game is like 7 vanillas at that point.

thats just nonsensical

If you're Town, you still shouldn't think I'm Scum. Even with me getting annoyed here. It's more nonsensical than Scum knowing you targeted BCT for sure no matter what

Chaeix posted...

engaged with a fellow scummate"

now this looks like a scumslip but I cant tell who hes referring to lol

You need to learn how quotation marks work before you start posting on the internet

Chaeix posted...

someone call the WIFOMbulance we have an emergency

##Vote: JC

"lol it's totally within Han's wheelhouse to, at work, take a knife and slowly peel layers of his eyeballs of in front of all of his coworkers when he could have just not engaged with a fellow scummate"

I'm done. Bye.

Like, there's a reason Lea, Ulti, and even Crescent weren't entertaining me - it's absolutely ridiculous to look at Chris/me from D1 and say "hurr durp sure is scum han who would agree to have Chris drive him fucking insane day 1 when it's also strategically stupid as all fuck"

Because if the answer is no, then it's fucking ridiculous for you to think I would.

ctesjbuvf posted...

What kind of an argument is this

Like seriously, I actually don't understand it.

Ctes - smash your face into your desk hard. Enough to draw blood.

Will you do that for a mafia game?

ctesjbuvf posted...

Why are you pushing him so hard

Because I'm trying to win? No shit?

Chaeix posted...

good job Han, you caught my scum slip

scum never could have guessed that I, the dude being insulted for not scanning a vanilla, would try to scan the vanilla

ace detective work

How many possible other scan options were there last night? And as you already proved, you don't give a damn for scanning claimed vanillas, so really, why would you scan BCT?

You're talking as if any and all actions Scum took were based solely on the premise that you were scanning BCT no matter what.

It's either a slip or you're not thinking critically about possibilities here.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I am concerned about you, Han, my dear mason vig pal. When I day 1 considered you and Chris putting on a show I wasn't really kidding. I held back because you buried him, but I don't think that's out of your game. I don't feel like most of your detective work is done in good faith while you're usually all over trying to push for information. I know because it tends to get on my nerves lol (in a good way).

Also the more jokey reason is that you haven't really been suspecting me early on like you have done literally ever other game we have played together (I have never played with scum Han before).

Ironically except the one time I was actually scum, so maybe I really am the scum lol.

There is no reason anybody who has seen me in a game with Lopen thinks I'm Scum for real here.

That I wasn't on your Town list at start of day is why I've been pursuing other avenues that could point to you being Scum - because you certainly aren't thinking like Town.

If Bus Driver (and protecting BCT), Scum just flips BCT and Crescent. This didn't happen. So Bus Driver is false.

This means it would HAVE to be a Redirector. But a Redirector would have 0 to do with BCT... except JB is letting slip they would know BCT would be tracked.

Chaeix posted...

There are two options that are equally probable at this point - that scum didnt want BCT tracked nowhere because hes town, or scum didnt want me to scan him because hed move.

Okay JC is Scum because he's confirming Scum knew he would "track" BCT.

Easy game.

Chaeix posted...

Okay, and what would your thoughts on BCT be given that it would confirm scum redirected a scan from him? Would they change or stay the same?

If it's a Scum redirector, then BCT is not connected.

If it's a Bus Driver... they don't swap BCT and Ulti. Ever?

She said "my read is every claimed power is Town so far".

But like, too much obfuscation on JC if she did scan him. If she did, it's just bad play.

Chaeix posted...

Han, if I flipped town what would your scum setup be at that point and why?

Honestly, probably still Isquen. I would examine Ulti there because I'm not sure how sensibly he fits in.

She didn't scan Ulti for sure.
She didn't scan anyone Scum, or else she'd have claimed, position she was in.
Seems like she didn't scan Wall either.

I mean, yeah, the post where she says if she were Cop she would have just screams a claim. I might be overthinking it.

I just have trouble there because... not out and saying it was pretty bad play. Like, either claimed Doctor would be RB'd/dealt with in some way and she'd be shot, or she'd be RB'd/dealt with in some way and Ulti would be shot (with unblockable).

Live reactions to JC claiming to have scanned Crescent.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Yep.

But to scan me of all people last night after a vote that essentially sealed Chris' death?

That sounds like something scum does, not town. I actually thought there was a good chance I'd get shot.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/8/4/AAOJ0pAAERVg.png
Crescent-Moon posted...

And this is why it feels far more likely scum would scan me, unless JC is the one town in the game dumb enough to keep spouting arguments for me being scum that I've already answered without acknowledging I've already answered them.

Like if this isn't scum this is horrendous town play from someone who really isn't even trying.

This reads pretty clearly like she didn't scan JC.

EDumey posted...

I think if Crescent knew she was bus driven, she could have stated that without giving up her role, since we already knew she was someone that moved. I don't see any reason for her to withhold that if she had a direct contradiction to JC's claim.

There was no reason for her to hold any information back after she was revealed as going somewhere... especially as a Scanner.

It's why I was sure she was protection until she made the "If I were cop, I scanned JC" post, which then as I just posted, she did not confirm.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/7/2/AAOJ0pAAERVU.png
At the least, we can say that group of players does not include one she scanned as Scum.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/7/0/AAOJ0pAAERVS.png
It was this response. I asked her "I thought you were confident in your read on JC" and her response ended up not being "yes".

Her calling it circumstantial introduced doubt into the read.

ctesjbuvf posted...

It's her replying to you asking jer of how bad she thought JC looked end of d1

She says

"Bad enough that if I were cop I probably would've scanned him."

Yeah, and if anybody didn't pick up on that live then y'all don't read close enough.

Let me find the post where she seems to counter that it was her scan.

There was a post she had that heavily implied she scanned him yesterday. I picked up on it live. I then asked for clarification as best I could - and she backed down from the certainty in a way that implies there wasn't a scan there.

Crescent didn't vote Sheep, but she didn't defend him enough to prevent the mislynch, so that clears Sheep from being scanned by her.

Can we remove the possibility she scanned herself? Would mean she got bus drove with her target, and JC's scan claim would prove that wrong... and Crescent would have maybe said something about that?

ctesjbuvf posted...

I think Crescent did scan JC.

She provided a post that proves it wrong.

Chaeix posted...

But then that brings us back to why they wouldnt just redirect Ulti, and why there was scum equity in redirecting or BDing me away from BCT

The explanation is that they did redirect Ulti, and you're lying.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Though Wallz reply to me mitigated a lot of the bad feelings I had towards him. I feel like scum in that situation at least gets a little defensive, and he didn't react defensively at all.

Nevermind, not a scan.

So we know she didn't scan JC or Wall.

Also I think we're lynching Wall today because looking at Crescent's first post of the day, she said:

My town lean on Wall hasn't just gone, it's flipped straight to a scum read.

If she ever backs down from this certainty, then it cancels out reading it as a scan, but based on that one post, it looks like a scan.

Bus Driver allows Scum to remove all protection or scans from a person of their choosing.
Redirector is effectively a roleblocker - move someone's action to someone else.

ctesjbuvf posted...

This is why the bus drive comes from a town perspective imo. Trying to save doctor. But if scum had an unblockable they obviously kill the scanner first.

My statement is basically that Scum does not have an Unblockable Kill and also an Unblockable Kill (which is what Bus Drive is)

Chaeix posted...

Why not?

If they have an unblockable kill, dont have an RB, and dont believe Ulti is BP, wouldnt Crescent be the obvious target, then Ulti?

I'm turning this one over.

For people to be telling the truth, we're talking about a Redirector, not a Bus Driver. Need to think about if those actions make the msot sense.

Chaeix posted...

Or Chris saw that my scan would inevitably end up on BCT and they swapped him with Ulti to create exactly this kind of doubt?

It makes sense if scum doesnt believe Ulti is BP.

It doesn't make sense if Scum believes Ulti is Doctor, as your claim implies he is.

I don't really want to dive into Crescent right now because I'm lazy, but my only read was that she confirmed she didn't scan JC n1.

She considered her scan more useless which would imply she scanned Death over anyone. Though it's possible there's some other reading between the lines that hints a different result.

Like, I stayed shut up yesterday because I thought Ulti was covering for Crescent, but there's no point in doing that anymore.

Ulti is not BP Doctor. If that were true, he'd have been killed by a suggested unblockable kill last night. I think it's more likely that he is Doctor and Scum just have a bypass, be it BD, Redirector, or they placed a nexus on Ulti and he drew all night actions except for the kill. It's also possible he's Scum in this instance.

It would take something like a Nexus-maker ability to make both Ulti and JC Town, though? I think?

I think I was also being inherently suspicious of you Ctes because you didn't have me on your Townlist.

But Ulti claiming a Doc save on Crescent that didn't work and JC claiming to be redirected are two claims at odds with each other.

If Scum used their ability to redirect Ulti's claimed save elsewhere, it's how they killed Crescent. It would mean that JC is lying about being redirected.

But if JC is not lying, then Ulti's claim stops holding water (which, I mean, I never really thought it did).

EDumey posted...

How does the existence of a Bus Driver implicate Ctes though? A Scum Bus Driver doesn't explain Death getting killed N1, so Ctes' Vig claim still holds water, no? A Town Bus Driver would be the one that implicates Ctes.

My thoughts were all mixed up and I was still waking up.

Ctes claiming a shot on Death isn't inherently linked to Scum trying to claim a Bus Driver... I mean, it could be, in that a Bus Driver would explain where the Scum shot went if it got directed at a doc save/BP claim.
A Town Bus Driver implicating Ctes makes no sense either - because then Ctes couldn't have claimed to shoot Death directly. A Town Bus Driver would prove that wrong with their claim.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Han my dear mason friend, how do you look at everything said and done and land on the scum teams being two non-vanillas. You're gonna have to walk me through this line of thought.

Do Scum have both an unblockable and an ability that bypasses protection?

Did Sultan and Wall claim?

In the interest of stomping down any "vanilla is some no-name", I am vanilla and most everyone knows who Commander Riker is, so let's shut up any of that flavor meta.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Id like to hear Hans thoughts about Dumey since he was also spoken with.

I'm inclined to buy it but I want to sit on it a bit further to really let it marinate.

Now that I'm caught up, I see that Isquen did not claim Bus Driver.

So here's the deal - if nobody claims Bus Driver (it's not me Scum, I'm not Bus Driver) then the game is probably solved with JC/Ctes as Scum.

If Town does have a Bus Driver... I haven't thought this one through all the way yet.

I mean, I thought Crescent was protection. Her refusal to claim a target indicated she was protection. Then, when I pressed her on JC, or before I did, she gave an answer that implied she was Cop who scanned him - I asked for clarification and she gave an answer that refuted that read and I got confused.

Either way, I thought Ulti's claim of Doc was a lie and Crescent was just picking up what he was putting down.

That not being true, we're stuck in a Bus Driver requirement for actions to make sense atm.

Hey Isquen - you're claiming Bus Driver, correct?

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