Lurker > TheRock1525

Supposedly Taker was in Brooklyn last night.

Likelihood he comes out to challenge Roman or Lesnar tonight.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

New rule, people who unironically use "BTFO" are literally worse than Nazis.

Are we in agreement?
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Lopen posted...

Tl;dr Applying a double standard to your perception of men's strength vs women's strength is more sexist than acknowledging a woman is hot, so check yourself.

Except I don't have double standards.

If Roman Reigns started doing chokehold STOS to Braun I'd bitch about that, too.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

I have no idea what Lopen is rambling about.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Like how could you remotely get anything sexist out of "I think this wrestler is too small to be choking competitors six inches taller."

That's a universal statement that would apply to any gender.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Lopen posted...

I do think it's ironic that I'd probably call the "Alexa can't be strong look at her" statement more sexist than "at least she was hot." Keep in mind I don't think either one is to the point where it needs to be mentioned but if we're splitting hairs.

Actually it's not sexist in the slightest because it's a literal comparison to other women in the division.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

TheRock1525 posted...

Alexa's STO whenever I've seen it (and I'll admit if I'm wrong here)

Pretty sure that's me admitting it's off memory.

Like the most vivid one in my memory was Becky coming off the ropes only for her to get caught, Alexa shaking her head and then performing it.

Couldn't tell you when or where to save my life.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Btw, moving out of this topic I'm seeing a lot of people happy Sasha won so I'm thinking she's still a lot more over than we think.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Or I'm just not a fan of the tiniest woman in the WWE having such a powerful grip she can force her opponents backwards, then bring them towards her before finally tripping them.

And considering that video matches what I remember quite well, something tells me that's more often how it goes down.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

STO's are generally very fluid moves.

Alexa's STO whenever I've seen it (and I'll admit if I'm wrong here) usually involves her grabbing them by the throat, holding them for a second or two, pulling them towards her and THEN tripping them.

Like she's not lifting them, but the entire sequence takes way too long for an STO, especially since almost everyone is bigger than her.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Lopen posted...

Well the chokehold is the spin that makes it Alexalike

An STO, the way she does it, isn't not really something you need a lot of power to do because you're basically just tripping them.

I mean, Bayley and Becky are like half a foot taller than Alexa.

It should be treated like when Hurricane tried to chokeslam Austin and HHH. >_>
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Like, I ain't gonna tell you not to enjoy Alexa. Simply that I don't think her ring work is good enough for her to be such a focal point the women's division (formerly on Smackdown, currently on RAW) and that it's actively hurting the brands. I would have just as much a problem with someone like Nia Jax also being the focal point, probably more so because she's actively dangerous in the ring and lacking in any sort of significant character.

Like I much preferred the division when the promo work sucked but the matches were good than when one promo was good and the matches kinda suck. And also something tells me Sasha is still massively over despite our topics' general animosity towards her, though I could be wrong as I still haven't sat down to watch the match yet.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Lopen posted...

I'm still mad we never got that Mickie vs Alexa feud :(

It says something when I forgot to list Mickie in my list of "better workers than Alexa Bliss."
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

See, I actually don't think Alexa's offense makes any sense. He's got the little mannerisms down that work for people like Owens, but a lot of it is meant for a more powerful wrestler. Like, how the hell can she use a chokehold STO on anyone?
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Also God Bless Alicia Fox for not killing anyone with that awful Axe Kick she used to use.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Naomi is definitely sloppy, but she's pretty good when she's on.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Alicia Fox is definitely an underrated worker (insert Alicia Fox/Melina joke here). I kinda wish she'd get more consistent time because she can definitely work when she does.

Solioxrz362 posted...

Except Baron Corbin is pretty boring and has no character, and Alexa Bliss is absolutely stellar on the mic and in her character. That's where she succeeds, and it gets her over. What's more important, having good matches and not getting over or getting over and having just serviceable matches? I'd say getting over.

I'd say the women's division has largely taken a step back thanks to Alexa. It was definitely in a better place when Charlotte and Sasha were headlining it.

Like say what you will about hot potatoing the belt, but the audience was pretty damn invested into two quality female wrestlers going at each other on a nightly basis.

Now the division is pretty meh thanks to some bad booking and a mediocre champ.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

I have never walked away from an Alexa Bliss match going "that was a good match."

Serviceable sounds about right for her, which is kind of a problem when she's routinely carrying a brand's top title. When people like Sasha, Charlotte, Becky, Bayley, Natalya, Naomi, Emma and hell even Alicia Fox are better workers, and that's not including someone like Nikki Bella (who's basically part time), I find it a tad bit annoying they're always finding ways to stick the title on her.

She has more in common with the Baron Corbin's of the WWE than any of the people I listed.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

StealThisSheen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Because saying "at least" doesn't imply perk, it implies that her other short-comings are overcome by this one attribute. Once again, if say you described a match as "at least ____ won" it would readily imply that the match itself was shit.

While I'm done with the discussion itself, these two things kinda... Contradict each other? In the first part, you're saying "at least" implies one thing overcomes all the other short-comings. In your example, "at least ____ won" is saying ____ winning is the only good part about the match, and that it's acknowledged that the rest was shit. Like, your own semantics aren't even matching up, which is why I think our disagreement is happening. >_>

How do these contradict at all?

"At least she's hot" implies the wrestler's shortcomings don't matter.
"At least _____ won" implies the match's shortcomings don't matter.

The second one certainly doesn't have to imply that at all

If I say "Ugh, that match was shit, but atleast Heath won," I'm not saying "Heath won so it doesn't matter that the match is shit." I'm saying "The only good part was Heath winning" or "The match was shit, but Heath winning was a plus."

And thus, the first one doesn't have to imply that, either.

I'm not following what you're saying at all.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Can I also say that I have this begrudging respect for Mahal's reign over, say, Rollins because while both play chicken-shit heels, Mahal's makes so much more sense because how he retains isn't via stupid flukes?
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Lopen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

It's not. I literally said it's a tiny bit.
You agreed it's a tiny bit.

If it's a tiny bit I probably wouldn't be posting it to begin with.

I definitely wouldn't be arguing about it for 20 posts.

But that's just me.

Glad to know what is and isn't allowed for discussion in the All Purpose Wrestling Topic.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

StealThisSheen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Because saying "at least" doesn't imply perk, it implies that her other short-comings are overcome by this one attribute. Once again, if say you described a match as "at least ____ won" it would readily imply that the match itself was shit.

While I'm done with the discussion itself, these two things kinda... Contradict each other? In the first part, you're saying "at least" implies one thing overcomes all the other short-comings. In your example, "at least ____ won" is saying ____ winning is the only good part about the match, and that it's acknowledged that the rest was shit. Like, your own semantics aren't even matching up, which is why I think our disagreement is happening. >_>

How do these contradict at all?

"At least she's hot" implies the wrestler's shortcomings don't matter.
"At least _____ won" implies the match's shortcomings don't matter.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Becky's inherent problem is that she's stuck on Smackdown with some pretty suspect workers save Natalya (and Charlotte but considering they're booked as BFFs right now we don't get to see them work against each other).

Like her first feud was with Alexa Bliss, and I think I've made my feelings pretty clear on her ring work.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

StealThisSheen posted...

What I said was that if they're gonna push her anyway, it'd help for me to not completely hate it if I found her hot. This is basically the reverse of what you're suggesting. You're suggesting I'm going "Put all hot people on TV even if they can't wrestle." I'm saying they're already shoving her down our throats, so I wish "She's hot" was a perk to it. Hence why it's more of a perk than a justification. Her being hot wouldn't make me actually like her/defend her/whatever.

Because saying "at least" doesn't imply perk, it implies that her other short-comings are overcome by this one attribute. Once again, if say you described a match as "at least ____ won" it would readily imply that the match itself was shit.

StealThisSheen posted...

I just don't see why this is a big issue.

It's not. I literally said it's a tiny bit.
You agreed it's a tiny bit.
So why are we still having this discussion?
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Like, I know this is weird but... am I the only one who thinks Bayley would be a much better wrestler if she like, had more "sloppy" looking moves in her repertoire? Like she's supposed to be this scrappy underdog who's just happy to be here and she's doing all these suplexes and moving really gracefully and stuff. Her whole "whoooaaaaa" spin -> corner attack is like the only time she seems like Bayley in there.

It's been said before, but they brought Bayley to the main roster and never told the Bayley story.

"Oh hey she's Sasha's friend and she was good in NXT, trust us."

And then they started acting like she was a simpleton even after she had already demonstrated she wasn't young starstruck Baylee now.

It's really dumb. It's like bringing up Finn Balor and just trying to sell him as a dude who cosplays sometimes

Oh wait

I was actually thinking about how they tried to retell Bayley's story on the main roster, which I guess what could have actually worked of they didn't rush through it and literally have her win the title via cheating!

Like it undermines the whole concept of Bayley! She was even given the opportunity to relinquish the title and didn't!
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

StealThisSheen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Like, I get that's inherently sexist a little bit, but no more than really anything else in wrestling, to the point where I don't see why it's getting called out.

I mean, if we acknowledge it's sexist (and I even said it was a tiny bit, not OMG YOU PIG) then I don't feel like it shouldn't be acknowledged, and everyone knows that you're not some raging sexist so I don't know why we shouldn't hold ourselves to a higher standard.

We'd probably hold ourselves to a higher standard when wrestling itself does.

I mean, let's be honest, here. Most of them try/intend to be seen as hot/attractive. So why is that okay, but it's not okay to acknowledge it?

Once again, it comes back to "at least she's hot" thing. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the attractiveness of female wrestlers, it's another to make it sound like it justifies massive short-comings in other areas. And the implication in your original post is that Sasha has become a really bad wrestler.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

The three examples I cited about Becky.

Push this woman, God dammit.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Lopen posted...

She really needs more of a character than "I am great and I know it and the daughter of Ric Flair, whooo." This is most of what Becky's problem is too-- she needs more of a character than "I'm Irish" and "FIYAHHHH"

You're dead wrong on Becky, whenever she's given time she's been money. Whether it be her initial work with Alexa, her reaction to being betrayed by Natalya, or her great promo with Daniel Bryan after the MitB ppv, she really is one of the few true babyfaces in the WWE.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

StealThisSheen posted...

Like, I get that's inherently sexist a little bit, but no more than really anything else in wrestling, to the point where I don't see why it's getting called out.

I mean, if we acknowledge it's sexist (and I even said it was a tiny bit, not OMG YOU PIG) then I don't feel like it shouldn't be acknowledged, and everyone knows that you're not some raging sexist so I don't know why we shouldn't hold ourselves to a higher standard.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

I mean this is the problem with the brand split, you essentially have six-woman divisions on each show which means you either end up with Smackdown's issue (cramming the 5 non-champion women into matches) or the RAW problem (focusing on 2-3 women at a time).

Like, Becky Lynch and Charlotte Flair literally did not have matches on Summerslam. Fucking Summerslam. Which had like 20 matches on it. And keep in mind Smackdown actually was doing a good job with this not that long ago! They had 3 women's storylines running between Becky/Natalya, Nikki/Carmella, and Naomi/Alexa!
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

StealThisSheen posted...

I didn't say "As long as she's hot nothing else matters."

You... do realize why people use the term "at least" right? When someone says "at least I've got my health" the implication isn't usually "my life's going pretty good and also I'm healthy."
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

StealThisSheen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Uh, I think the whole "at least she was hot" thing is kinda where it gets sexist. Like the "oh she can be a shit wrestler as long as I think she's hot" part.

Since when has "This wrestler is hot" being described as a perk turned into some big "Oh no you didn't" sexist thing.

Cause you didn't describe it as a perk.

You described as something that would make you ok with Sasha being a terrible wrestler because "at least she's hot."
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Charlotte is the best worker of the bunch nowadays, although the face turn isn't really helping her.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Uh, I think the whole "at least she was hot" thing is kinda where it gets sexist. Like the "oh she can be a shit wrestler as long as I think she's hot" part.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

I feel like criticisms moving from "I don't like her ring work" to "I don't think she's hot anymore" feels a tiny bit sexist.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Right but at least I know I'll get good matches out of Sasha.

Bliss... not so much.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Sasha is 10x more appealing than a Lesnar reign, mostly because Bliss kinda needs to start getting good at the whole wrestling thing or she's just the female version of Enzo.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

StealThisSheen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

I'd actually say Roman winning would be a better result than this, because I'm guessing we won't get Lesnar defending again until Survivor Series?

And like where do these guys go? Maybe you pair Joe and Reigns off and that's ok I guess, but what about Strowman?

This is why it's even worse than Reigns winning. Lesnar will disappear for awhile again, and the other three have to basically... Keep fighting each other?

Of course it's dumb on our part since the whole selling point was "IF BROCK LOSES HE QUITS THE WWE FOREVER" so we should have known he would retain because dude ain't going back to UFC any time soon.

But still, it's just frustrating because there's so many better storylines to be made with a Strowman, Joe, or hell even Roman championship reign than Lesnar keeping the title.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Cena vs. Strowman is basically just Reigns vs Strowman but less fun.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Jakyl25 posted...

Man, who's gonna beat him now?

It's not Roman

(This is a good thing BTW)

(It's still probably Roman).
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

I'd actually say Roman winning would be a better result than this, because I'm guessing we won't get Lesnar defending again until Survivor Series?

And like where do these guys go? Maybe you pair Joe and Reigns off and that's ok I guess, but what about Strowman?
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Not happy about this result.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

"LOOK AT HOW HEAVY THAT FOAM TAYBLE IS!"
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Strowman getting to manhandle Lesnar is basically revenge for the 2016 Rumble, right?
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Jakyl25 posted...

AJ Styles and Kevin Owens are very good wrestlers

New MotN

It's about time those two put together a properly great match.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Near, far, wherever you are
I believe that Breitbart does go on
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Oh man just saw some highlights.

Ambrose wearing black wrist tape, which he hasn't worn since his Shield days.

Symbolism!
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Not currently watching the ppv but the RAW tag match sounds really good. Better than Smackdown's?
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

Jakyl25 posted...

I doubt they tried to sell it as a good thing

Right but what the hell DO you tell him? Cause unless Corbin gives zero shits I'm pretty sure he's gonna ask why.
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TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.