Lurker > Jakyl25

Also on a side note the mercury argument is not gone. They still insist it's in there
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Kinglicious posted...

The only way to have avoided people dying due to anti-vaxxers is by having state sponsored punishment to be one. Are you saying we should do that?

State sponsored punishment is preferable to innocent people dying.

A parent who intentionally doesn't vaccinate their child due to anti-vaxx beliefs should have child services called on them.
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Kenri posted...

We're drifting way too close to Kant here, abort abort.

This is actually quite intentional on my part
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Dark Young Link posted...

There's.... also this.


Kinglicious posted...

A history lesson will not be very helpful to you, you're in a different time facing new versions of the old ideas. You're too removed from the original to get all the meaning and the idea is now presented in such a way to try to appeal to you in this new time, to make you believe it's possible. If you shut them down at this stage, you give them validity.

But if you let them talk, this incompatibility becomes clear. Everyone moved away from the idea generations ago and basic principles no longer work in the new society, principles they can't hide once a push is made. So they'll get rejected again, by people who reaffirm their current beliefs as they reject the old ones. As they do that, they will also continue to move against these negative beliefs.

Only after generations of rejection from iteration after iteration can you effectively program out these ideas as there won't be anything left to compare. It'll effectively be dead.

So basically, we have to give them a platform to speak(Which ironically goes against the idea of Freedom of Speech/Expression) and that there's apparently no reason to look at history because it was so long ago that the ideas are considered old?

We've let them talk. We've told them to get the fuck out, but apparently that's going too far? After all, only they get to say what they want. We have to be their friend. We rejected them, but we rejected them in the "wrong" way.



After generations of rejection? Well we rejected them in WWII, and I"m pretty sure we rejected them up til today. How many more generations do we have stand idly by and listen to them?

Actually, I have a better question.


Considering their message is a message of hate, that they have no problem wiping out a group of people for being born, and they they're actively trying to accomplish all of this(They won't be satisfied with just "talking" about it)...


How many people are you okay with dying, before we put an end to this? How many lives are you comfortable with ending before you you put your foot down?

It's quite the Rube Goldberg machine

"We as a society know white supremacy is objectively an evil philosophy, but we have to allow it to affect people to keep proving it to ourselves."
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NFUN posted...

I just got back from vacation what is happening

Ideas are independent of thoughts now I guess
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Kinglicious posted...

All possible ideas already exist

I don't see how you can say this

And what do you mean be we don't control our thoughts? Sure our brains are often subconsciously crafting them to present to us, but a lot of times we are creating ideas as well.

And our brains are still us.
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Samurai7 posted...

As MLK once said, “Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” If all people are allowed the free exchange of thoughts and ideas, we will always bend towards a better future morally because the just and moral stance WILL win.

1.) I don't believe that

2.) There is irreversible damage done along the way
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Another thing I know Wang has argued in the past:

Regarding threats and free speech, he's said that whether they should be allowed should be based on how possible it is that the threat could actually be carried out, which he admits is very tricky to determine. For example, if someone calls a 7/11 store and threatens to nuke them, that's not actionable, unless it's Donald Trump I guess.

Now that modern white supremacists have both threatened to assault those opposed to them, and in one case have actually killed someone, shouldn't their speeches about white purity by now be considered realistic threats?
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Peace___Frog posted...

Similarly, your right not to take medicine ends once it can kill others. It's the same thing

It's so not though, at least in the minds of so many people that aren't even anti-vaxx themselves

Regulating against inaction is so much tougher than regulating against actions
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I wasn't arguing historically. I meant as of today.

Your argument was "hey, it all worked out with slavery because today there's barely anyone advocating for it!"

I'm saying it would be better if there was literally no one

(Also let's disregard the fact that the idea sometimes got beaten out of cultures by either their enslaved or an outside force, instead of them slowly abolishing it on their own)
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Let's harp on anti-vaxx too

I'm pretty sure Wang is on the side of science here. I think he personally believes that there's nothing wrong with our current methodology regarding them. If I am wrong about this then disregard the rest of this post.

Wang's pro-speech ideas at their most extreme would say "hey, I think those anti-vaxxers are loony, but they have every right to spread that belief."

Spreading that belief literally kills innocent people. It does so not through a subsequent action on the part of the believers like with white supremacy, but through an INACTION.

But hey, free speech, right?
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Kinglicious posted...

Corrik posted...

The point is that people have learned from history and it is why these ideas would never come into reality again,

For reference, most ideas do come back. People only briefly learn from history, then they repeat it in similar but different ways or reject it again and advance in ways that continue to reject it. You can basically say that history is an ongoing process of multiple old ideas butting heads as people try to figure out which ones work best. Natural selection at an ideological scale, more or less.

I really really want to tear this post down some more.

You're treating ideas as if they exist independently, and nature weeds out the bad ones through human experimentation and debate.

That's not reality.

Reality is that humans CREATE ideas. They are subservient to us the same way we are hypothetically subservient to an Abrahamaic God.

Natural selection in nature happens because either the creator is hands off, or there is no creator and life is left to fend for itself.

This is not true with ideas. We ARE their gods. They exist because WE ALLOW IT.

And there is no discernible reason we should allow those ideas without THE SLIGHTEST SHRED OF MERIT to prosper.

If it takes divine intervention to get rid of bigoted ideas, then so be it, because that is our right as their creators.
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Kinglicious posted...

Corrik posted...

The point is that people have learned from history and it is why these ideas would never come into reality again,

For reference, most ideas do come back. People only briefly learn from history, then they repeat it in similar but different ways or reject it again and advance in ways that continue to reject it. You can basically say that history is an ongoing process of multiple old ideas butting heads as people try to figure out which ones work best. Natural selection at an ideological scale, more or less.

Here's a question for you

Do you believe in objective truths?
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Kinglicious posted...

Not only have I never said that but slavery proves my point a lot more than not. It still exists mind you, but societies has continued to face it for centuries, steadily finding new ways to have an economy that's better without relying on it. Those that still do are looked down upon heavily because we've new, better ideas that have made it completely incompatible today.

But it would still be objectively better if there was NO slavery and no one wanted slavery
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Corrik posted...

Which is why I am confused to see an argument on the side of not being tolerant here from a liberal voice because the liberals in this topic were very against not being immoral in wars if necessary with the same paradox applied.

I think the distinction is the finality of death versus more temporary immoral acts.

Like, I don't personally agree with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I would totally be down with a hypothetical magical world where we could evacuate all the people beforehand and THEN level the cities. It would still be really, really, really bad for the people who established their lives there, but at least they wouldn't be, you know, deceased.

Punch Nazis, don't kill Nazis (unless they're killing others of course)
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I haven't paid attention to it, what gaslighting is he accusing you of again?
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Peace___Frog posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

I've been away all weekend, have any of our resident conservatives stated even the mildest condemnation of the Charlottesville nazis?

I believe ulti, actually, has condemned them the hardest. I was luckily offline for most of the weekend.

Yeah after he got called out
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Not_an_Owl posted...

I've been away all weekend, have any of our resident conservatives stated even the mildest condemnation of the Charlottesville nazis?

I will give Corrik credit for coming strong, hard, and genuine condemnation
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SupremeZero posted...

A few hours ago, Daily Stormer moved to Google as their host.

A few hours later, Google has kicked Daily Stormer.

Why did they think that would work?

You never know until you try

They might not be down with male/female phrenology, but their stance on race has not been tested!
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Peace___Frog posted...

exactly. She's no better.

Well, Trump ALSO appeased anti-vaxx <_<
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Kinglicious posted...

I didn't know she's not. Any idea how that got to the heavy rumor level it did?

Because she appeased them with wishy-washy stuff like "I would be glad to review the issue" and advocating for a parent's right to not vaccinate their children

It's basically like Trump with white supremacy! Sge may not be one herself but she will bend over backwards to keep their support.
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Bringing this from the last topic

Wang, do you philosophically believe that all ideas have merit? If so, why?
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LordoftheMorons posted...

https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/897153163773562880

Gross

This would essentially completely negate everything he just begrudgingly said on camera
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StealThisSheen posted...

Kinglicious posted...

But they are ideas not every generation has heard. If you've heard their taking points before then okay, you've heard out and rejected them already. Somebody else can now too.

I'm getting stuck on why this is a thing that needs so badly protected

Like, okay. Some people may not have heard white supremacist ideologies. So it's important that they do, in case... They too want to become a white supremacist...?

To add to this, I don't think anyone is saying we should remove white supremacy from history. It should absolutely be taught as what people like Nazis believed, and then how they were all hopelessly factually wrong
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transcience posted...

did this get posted yet?

https://mobile.twitter.com/CNN/status/897138474603737088

Better than literally nothing

But not better than much else
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xp1337 posted...

So, every argument has to be re-litigated ad infinitum?

We need more groups that advocate a geocentric view of astronomy. New generations haven't heard it yet!
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Kinglicious posted...

Nah, chants just don't really scare me. Don't see why they should. Actions or beliefs do, they matter more than a soundbite.

What are these chants though if not a signal that "We have these beliefs and we are here in large numbers and could take action."
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MenuWars posted...

The major difference being BLM haven't held power.

I feel like this, in the reverse, is more or less what Kenri was trying to say. Because the dominant culture in America has forever been a white culture, it has created an environment where white extremism isn't treated as severely as other extremist groups.

And my understanding is that you think it's unnecessarily divisive to bring that up right now because it reads like an attack on whites
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StealThisSheen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Maybe not. But we know he's not here in bad faith, unlike SOME OTHER people.

So I am willing to have a calm conversation about it, even if he's enraged, because an argument between good faith allies isn't going to help anyone.

That's fair enough. I didn't mean to get hostile, and I apologize, Menu.

It's just... We went "We didn't take it as an attack on white people" and you went "Well, it is, no matter how you downplay it, and you are the problem." That's a bit insulting.

I understand that feeling and I can't say I wasn't taken aback myself.

In this time though, I would rather try to understand him instead of shunning him for being stubborn about it.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Guys, his posts in these topics haven't been crazy, and he has spoken out as much if not more than anyone here about white supremacy.

There's no need to personally attack MenuWars.

Kenri's statement set him off in a way it didn't to anyone else, and that's not because we disagree with what MenuWars is preaching here in his responses about it.

I think all of us here do believe in the ideas he's trying to fight for here, on a grander scale. There's just a communication breakdown where we don't think they apply to Kenri's post, and he does.

I don't mean to personally attack him, but he's utterly refusing to accept that we took Kenri's post a different way, and is instead ridiculing us for it and accusing us of trying to downplay what he thinks it said.

That's not fair.

Maybe not. But we know he's not here in bad faith, unlike SOME OTHER people.

So I am willing to have a calm conversation about it, even if he's enraged, because an argument between good faith allies isn't going to help anyone.
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iiicon posted...

jakyl sonic cd came out 24 years ago

No wonder I can't get it to fit in my iPhone
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xp1337 posted...

Well, this topic took an unexpected swerve.

Poor phrasing
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Guys, his posts in these topics haven't been crazy, and he has spoken out as much if not more than anyone here about white supremacy.

There's no need to personally attack MenuWars.

Kenri's statement set him off in a way it didn't to anyone else, and that's not because we disagree with what MenuWars is preaching here in his responses about it.

I think all of us here do believe in the ideas he's trying to fight for here, on a grander scale. There's just a communication breakdown where we don't think they apply to Kenri's post, and he does.
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MenuWars posted...

I don't understand why I have to express these points to people who are supposed to be against oppression and racism and hatred.

In this instance, it's because we didn't read it as an attack on white people.

If we did read it in that way, we'd probably be right there with you.
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Let me try to rephrase what I think Kenri was saying:



Being disaffected is no excuse for anyone, of any color, to act like the white supremacists did this weekend.

It's frustrating that we live in a society that tends to excuse white people acting that way moreso than it does to minorities
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MenuWars posted...

I'm saying think before you speak and choose your words better. If I said well blacks are more likely to be criminals, I'd expect people to be angry at that statement because it's a sweeping generalisation. The facts back it up, but they're skewed and don't take socio political climate into consideration nor oppression, or a vast number of other factors.

Okay, so you think Kenri's statement was lacking proper context and came across to you as an attack on white men
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Oh okay you beat me to it
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MenuWars, if you want to have a conversation about why Kenri's statement set you off, I just want to say I am willing to listen to you and try to understand exactly how you took it.
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Right but most are and most do
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Peace___Frog posted...

MenuWars posted...

Oh I must've imagined those cop killings at the riots then. Man these drugs I'm on are great.

If you're referring to the asshole that killed cops during a blm rally, which blm was quick to condemn, then you're not presenting the entire sequence of events.

It's like blanket saying conservatives are responsible for Charlottesville.
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MenuWars posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

MenuWars posted...

Do you think it's okay we make these exact same excuses for BLM when they shoot white cops?

...BLM doesn't shoot cops. WTF?

Oh I must've imagined those cop killings at the riots then. Man these drugs I'm on are great.

You mean the sniper in Dallas?

That wasn't BLM. That happened after the rally.
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MenuWars posted...

Right, saying white males never have to take responsibility for their actions, is a totally valid statement. My bad. Of course.

He's saying society has set it up so that they don't have to do so to the degree that minorities do.

He's not saying that white men DON'T take responsibility for their actions. Most do!
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MenuWars posted...

Do you think it's okay we make these exact same excuses for BLM when they shoot white cops?

...BLM doesn't shoot cops. WTF?
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Sonic CD iOS up there is only 6 years old
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And then those same people upset at being called Nazis will turn around and call people "feminazis"
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https://twitter.com/brianphillips/status/897111406629093376

D'Souza has some really hot takes this weekend
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MenuWars posted...

He probably f***ing is a nazi at this point. There's no other way it makes sense.

He doesn't believe in anything strongly enough to be a Nazi

We've seen how far flattery will get you with Trump. Who flatters him more than white supremacists? They love him and tell him so!
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FFDragon posted...

whoa what

"I think he needed to be much harsher relating to the white supremacists ... It's terrorism. You have to call that stuff out," said Anthony Scaramucci, who briefly served as White House communications director, on ABC's "This Week."

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MenuWars posted...

The fact that Nazis have openly shown up and told Donald Trump they believe he loves them, and he's said fuck all about it is beyond repugnant.

Even THE MOOCH is on TV telling Trump he needs to step up and condemn them
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It's like John Oliver said last night

Nazis are like cats. If they love you, it's because you're feeding them.
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