If that happens, it's because people dropped the ball on characterization, IMO. Setting everything back just means that the characters will become more and more legendary, as tales of their exploits ascend from stuff that happened into the realm of myth.
You're assuming a certain level of repute for the party; it's not clear how far it will go.
Unless we have to become unsung ghosts specifically to stop an apocalypse...well, we're gonna get known. We're starting to make too much noise not to. Maybe, but nobody knows there's even an apocalypse in the making, and optimally, no one ever will.
Oh no, but it doesn't take an apocalypse to get noticed. In fact, the apocalypse is the smallest think. Think about everything else we've done and will continue to do, that's more what I'm talking about.
If that happens, it's because people dropped the ball on characterization, IMO. Setting everything back just means that the characters will become more and more legendary, as tales of their exploits ascend from stuff that happened into the realm of myth.
You're assuming a certain level of repute for the party; it's not clear how far it will go.
Unless we have to become unsung ghosts specifically to stop an apocalypse...well, we're gonna get known. We're starting to make too much noise not to.
From: KanzarisKelshen | #085 No, as in, in three hundred years things may be outright dystopic.
That could be fine too.
If it isn't a long time, we'll have to compete with our past selves, and that's no fun.
At least one past self will be around barring an assassination, so that's not exactly going to change anything. Even if Kirie's still alive, she wouldn't be likely to make waves anyway. I just want to avoid a scenario where the new party ends up feeling lame compared to the old, and the easiest way to do that is to make everything too far back for it to matter.
Yep. I remember watching the episode of Korra where Sokka, Aang, and Toph show up in a flashback and even forty years old and in a flashback that lasts one and a half minutes, they're way more interesting than the new cast with like nine episodes to themselves.
Or we could just run a game in Dark Sun or something.
If that happens, it's because people dropped the ball on characterization, IMO. Setting everything back just means that the characters will become more and more legendary, as tales of their exploits ascend from stuff that happened into the realm of myth.
I suggested that, if this campaign ends with you guys being successful (I'm not going to make that a certainty, and will make failing easy), I could run a sequel campaign set a few hundred years in the future.
Presumably, all but the immortal NPCs would be dead, sadly.
Considering all the stuff we've run roughshod over, hundreds of years doesn't seem like the best choice. Who knows what might remain standing at that point. Exactly, so it's a whole new world and stuff.
No, as in, in three hundred years things may be outright dystopic.
That could be fine too.
If it isn't a long time, we'll have to compete with our past selves, and that's no fun.
At least one past self will be around barring an assassination, so that's not exactly going to change anything.
I suggested that, if this campaign ends with you guys being successful (I'm not going to make that a certainty, and will make failing easy), I could run a sequel campaign set a few hundred years in the future.
Presumably, all but the immortal NPCs would be dead, sadly.
Considering all the stuff we've run roughshod over, hundreds of years doesn't seem like the best choice. Who knows what might remain standing at that point. Exactly, so it's a whole new world and stuff.
No, as in, in three hundred years things may be outright dystopic.
I suggested that, if this campaign ends with you guys being successful (I'm not going to make that a certainty, and will make failing easy), I could run a sequel campaign set a few hundred years in the future.
Presumably, all but the immortal NPCs would be dead, sadly.
Considering all the stuff we've run roughshod over, hundreds of years doesn't seem like the best choice. Who knows what might remain standing at that point.
You guys aren't obligated to keep up with me! Go at your own pace. I just like doing these topics fast. I don't care for dragging them out like some people.
I watched that gameplay trailer... .just seems like an adventure game to me.
Is a girl getting hit and knocked around a lot torture porn? Was Black Widow's opening scene in the Avengers torture porn?
Uhhh I think this attitude the feminists is having towards the game is more damaging to female empowerment than what they are arguing against....
Compare that to the gameplay that preceded it. There's quite a big gap, don't you think? From tanking headshots all day erryday to the rapids scene, that's a big shift in gears.
I was kinda looking forward to the new Tomb Raider, so I'm immensely disappointed that the developers are horrible misogynist pigs. The old Lara Croft design was kinda silly, but I don't remember her being a helpless raped animal that needs protecting.
Good to know Kotaku is still an absolute joke
For the record, I'm not with him either. Just making this clear because he's the kinda guy I wanna punch in the face every time he opens his mouth - Liquid Wind looks super clean compared to him.
Turns out I was thinking of the gameplay demo, not the trailer. It's pretty torture porn-y. Lara's Schwarzenegger in gameplay (takes a shot to the head at one point, even!), but later...dem moans, man. Dem moans.
From: KingButz | #149
From: KanzarisKelshen | #143
Not always, though. Take a look at Planescape. One of the mechanics is that you never truly die - if you die you are reborn later. You actually use this to bypass a trap early on, and then to disarm a special gadget. This is enthralling, you see. I don't see why gaming can't have more of that. Hell, if memory doesn't fail me, some FPS' have done things like these and had pretty alright stories. Not ones that will win the Literature Nobel, but good enough to stand up to any scrutiny.
Does that mean they should stop trying? One of the things I like about the Tomb Raider game is that it looks like it is going to try out some very mature themes. Could they mishandle it? Sure! It's likely the story won't be that great, but I'm not really going to hold it against them, because at least they are trying!
I'm OK with them trying. It's just that the demo above doesn't inspire confidence in me. I could be wrong, but man...look at the scene in the rapids.
Counterpoint: Myth. Those games also mostly divorce story from gameplay and tell an excellent tale. They're Real-Time Tactical Games. jRPGs aren't special and we shouldn't excuse bad writing because of them. They're just games like any others. Any sort of game can tell an amazing story. It just requires a good writer who uses the medium properly.
Exactly. So we've established here that the stories that people enjoy and are great quality usually have to be mostly divorced from the gameplay. There may be plenty of JRPGs with good writing, because it's much more doable to write a story that does not have to shoehorn in the implications from the gameplay.
Not always, though. Take a look at Planescape. One of the mechanics is that you never truly die - if you die you are reborn later. You actually use this to bypass a trap early on, and then to disarm a special gadget. This is enthralling, you see. I don't see why gaming can't have more of that. Hell, if memory doesn't fail me, some FPS' have done things like these and had pretty alright stories. Not ones that will win the Literature Nobel, but good enough to stand up to any scrutiny.
From: CoolCly | #140
I will say this; I have absolutely never cared for Lara Croft in any way at any time before. What a boring and pointless character. Even with the movies.
I think I may actually become a fan of her when this game comes out. It really has the potential to make you care and root for her.
Sooo not sure how this can be a step in the wrong direction.
Kanz, I wonder if your initial impression of the trailer clouded your judgement of the whole thing. When the trailer started and she was hanging upside down and she was crawling around in the cave I definitely thought "yeah, Kanz is right, torture porn." But the development over the course of the trailer definitely won me over. That's really the only way I can explain your view of the trailer as a whole; made your judgement at the start and just held onto it the whole way which would be really quite foolish.
Could be. Lemme go watch it again and I'll give you my thoughts. Maybe I'm overreacting, I could be wrong.
It makes character sense for Lara to be more vulnerable and less tough and whatever, though.
Like, does this not just seem really obvious
Right, but why do you need rape to show that? Doesn't it make sense to have her get her ass kicked by a martial artist, or make a callback to a Tomb Raider 1/Legend/Anniversary jump and have her fumble it because she is not, actually, the incredible acrobat she'll be down the line? This even works to show her hardening, too - she can meet the same martial artist or come across the same jump down the line and do better. This is much more subtle and better than 'OMG SHE'S ABOUT TO GET RAPED BUT SHE GOT AWAY NOW SHE'S A STRONG, CONFIDENT, BOLD SURVIVOR.'. One of them isn't shoved in your face. The author isn't telling you 'do you see? Do you SEE?! She's tough! SUPER TOUGH!'. He's showing. In the other one, he's...not.
it requires delicate handling, i think, to make rape in fiction "work." even talented writers can very easily fumble it. it's not a matter of me thinking the people working on this game are "hacks" or bad writers or whatever, it's a matter of taking a super touchy issue like rape and handling it properly. like i said, that's difficult for anybody.
This. It's the same way with trying to describe a personal murder (i. e. not your average fantasy battle but a one to one affair). You'd have to write very competently to wring the right emotions out of your audience because they're likely desensitized to violence. You'd have to write very competently to wring the right emotions out of your audience with rape too, because they are *not* desensitized to it.
Or you get Xenogears (you can make arguments about Disk 2 - I'll accept the obvious callout because it was murdered by lack of budget and deadlines). It doesn't have the most stellar mechanics ever, but it doesn't need 'em. The story of it IS the main draw, and it's pretty damn good.
JRPGs are a separate beast entirely. I can't think of any other video game genre that so entirely removes the story-telling elements from the gameplay. They practically are two different things. You watch some story, and then play a game that is related to the story but is not the story at all, then repeat. There is a reason that LPs of JRPGs are so popular. Many people don't really need to even play the game to enjoy the story.
Counterpoint: Myth. Those games also mostly divorce story from gameplay and tell an excellent tale. They're Real-Time Tactical Games. jRPGs aren't special and we shouldn't excuse bad writing because of them. They're just games like any others. Any sort of game can tell an amazing story. It just requires a good writer who uses the medium properly.
So it's just an issue of video game writers being worse than TV show drama writers. It's not really about rape or anything like that at all.
Glad we could get down to the meat of the issue.
Not quite, Foolmo. It's sorta like that, but not exactly. Let's put it like this: you know how Charles Schulz said that a girl beating up a boy was funny but a boy beating up a girl wasn't, right? It takes a great writer to make a boy beating up a girl funny. It only takes a slightly less skilled writer to make it horrendously uncomfortable to watch. The guys behind Tomb Raider aren't great writers, so there's zero faith in them being able to make something potentially uncomfortable thrilling.
I was being extreme to make a point. The Uncharted games rank among my favorite games ever partly because they tell a fun and exciting story. The story is enjoyable, but won't win any awards for being excellent writing. But I would never go into a video game looking for an award-winning story because that's an unrealistic expectation.
When you focus so much on the story, you get Heavy Rain. It might be great but the more you focus on the story, the less it becomes a game because you can't really have the quality of story you are looking for when the main character is constantly shooting people and solving puzzles and other things that video game convention calls for.
Or you get Xenogears (you can make arguments about Disk 2 - I'll accept the obvious callout because it was murdered by lack of budget and deadlines). It doesn't have the most stellar mechanics ever, but it doesn't need 'em. The story of it IS the main draw, and it's pretty damn good.
Also any of the games that I love, I love mostly for their story. The gameplay is definitely an immersion technique for me. I just don't feel that rape is a subject to be left untouched.
Neither do I, ExTha, but I DO feel that rape is a subject that should be left untouched...by hacks. Crystal Dynamics is made up of hack writers until proven otherwise, because their track record isn't good there.
So wait
"bad writers shouldn't have the right to write about rape"?
They should have the right, especially because there's a chance they could improve. They do not deserve any sort of defending until they're proven to have written something good however, and should not be surprised if they're lambasted for terrible writing after the fact.
Do you think that episode of SVU where <spoilers>Benson almost gets raped</spoilers> was bad? That was one of the best episodes. The way they describe the story for this game sounds great, honestly. I don't see how you can be "disgusted" by the thought of an almost-rape. You know people actually get raped in real life, right? Stop acting so sheltered.
Haven't seen it so I couldn't tell you. What was its name? If you give me a while I could go watch it and give you my impressions of it, if it matters.
Also any of the games that I love, I love mostly for their story. The gameplay is definitely an immersion technique for me. I just don't feel that rape is a subject to be left untouched.
Neither do I, ExTha, but I DO feel that rape is a subject that should be left untouched...by hacks. Crystal Dynamics is made up of hack writers until proven otherwise, because their track record isn't good there.
She wasn't the best character, but at least she was a proactive, confident woman who could deal with her own ****.
She was a pair of boobs holding guns
For the record, I think Yoshi's arguments have become silly too. But saying 'videogames are purely about mechanics, no one buys them for their story' is just blatantly false.
We have to hold EVERY GAME to a higher standard. Videogames should evolve as a medium and have stories as good as books or the more thought-provoking movies if they're trying to tell a story instead of just prepping some dressing for the mechanics.
Video games are ALL ABOUT the mechanics! Nobody will buy a video game for the story if they don't like the mechanics. Video games are not primarily a story-telling medium, and they never will be. That's why we call them "games!" Do you open up your game of monopoly or chess looking for an engrossing story?
There are reasons that movies, books, etc. still exist and are popular and always will be. They are primarily storytelling mediums and nobody goes to a movie looking for gameplay.
Planescape: Torment called. It wants its credit as a work of art back.
So did Persona 4, for that matter. It's telling you to stop being silly. I can continue rattling off examples if you'd like. You can absolutely play a game for their story, with the mechanics as a method of immersion.
If you are looking towards video games for quality writing you are looking at the wrong place imo
Why? It's my aspiration to eventually enter the business. Why can't I hope that the medium will become better, and that I can be a part of the process?
From: CoolCly | #097
From: KanzarisKelshen | #094
We have to hold EVERY GAME to a higher standard. Videogames should evolve as a medium and have stories as good as books or the more thought-provoking movies if they're trying to tell a story instead of just prepping some dressing for the mechanics.
I really have to ask Kanz, did YOU watch the trailer? Because this game is like, exactly the kind of immersive storytelling that gaming should be moving towards. I really get a sense of wanting to root for Lara to make it through whatever the **** is going on in that island.
I did. We must be watching different trailers, because that was absolutely not what was shown. It was very polished, but not particularly immersive, you know.
My first post had "Having never played a Tomb Raider game" in it. If that's all they've done I've never played anything by them so I don't know what quality anything in it is whether it's writing or gameplay.
Right. I have. So I know the quality of their stories, and it's...not amazing. Incidentally, I'd urge you to check 'em out. They're pretty decent games, just...not shining paragons of storytelling at all.
So now you are saying that you know that video games have subpar writing (that's pretty much a given in the medium) but we have to hold Tomb Raider to some higher standard?
From: DSAutoResponder | #079
So I don't understand why the fact that this is something that happens all the time in real life and is completely believable is not fair grounds for a video game. Once again, obviously the character doesn't get raped because you can't put that in a video game and expect to sell it in stores.
it doesn't make sense to have your action hero get almost raped! rape is something that completely removes one's agency and sense of empowerment. using as one of a long list of "hardships" for your heroine is cheap and undermines the seriousness of it. the whole "well she's going to be broken down over and over again and you'll want to coddle her" angle is total garbage from word go. who wants to play as a character like that?
We have seen action hero characters get tortured, beaten, and maimed. Being subjected to torture "completely removes one's agency and sense of empowerment" and yet is common fare for the action genre.
We have to hold EVERY GAME to a higher standard. Videogames should evolve as a medium and have stories as good as books or the more thought-provoking movies if they're trying to tell a story instead of just prepping some dressing for the mechanics.
This topic is hilarious for so Many reasons. So far we have
1. Guys learning that women really don't mind being glorified sex objects and trophies. 2. Guys learning how dumb it sounds when other guys defend feminist tripe 3. Everyone realizing that feminists are hypocritical idiots
Tomb Raider. You know, the previous ones where Lara was a sex object?
My first post had "Having never played a Tomb Raider game" in it. If that's all they've done I've never played anything by them so I don't know what quality anything in it is whether it's writing or gameplay.
Right. I have. So I know the quality of their stories, and it's...not amazing. Incidentally, I'd urge you to check 'em out. They're pretty decent games, just...not shining paragons of storytelling at all.
Kanz, just stop. The "give me ten examples" is the worst and most lazy type of arguing ever.
Why, SEP? I know Liquid Wind isn't literate enough to do it so I get to laugh at him, and his position *deserves* being laughed at because it's ignorant. Like...this is a basic writing tip - hit up most any site dedicated to providing ideas and coaching to budding writers and they will tell you that rape is a really cheap way to gain sympathy points and just lazy writing unless it's very well done, so you shouldn't go for it unless you really know what you're doing. Look at CD's track record and then tell me they do (note that the writer of Soul Reaver/Legacy of Kain and most of her pals are now in Naughty Dog so you can't use that here.). Doesn't it strike you as unwise after going through their track record?
These same women love Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. She's a heroine!
Do they even see their own hypocrisy anymore?
Actually there are quite a few people who really don't think GwtDT is all that great. She's a character written by a guy out of guilt that he didn't stop a rape when he was younger. He created this character to make himself feel better, and then had her sleep with his self-insert because he's a writer, so why not?
Also this, GwtDT isn't that much better than your average pap either. Go read, say, Pillars of the Earth and then GwtDT. They're frighteningly similar, which is absolutely not a good thing.
The issue is that 99% of the time, including an almost rape is bad writing, and do you really trust Crystal Dynamics not to write something crappy here? People are losing their **** because it's incredibly likely to be godawful and a cheap way to get sympathy points for Lara at the cost of decent writing. It's like a western equivalent of making a moeblob.
I never said it would be good writing or anything. Also I don't really pay attention to game developers so I don't even know what games Crystal Dynamics has done.
Tomb Raider. You know, the previous ones where Lara was a sex object?
From: CoolCly | #066
Do you watch Game of Thrones, Kanz?
Anyway, it sounds like the entire point of the game is Lara starting off a weakling afraid of **** and by the end of the game will be a total badass after making some cool moves.
If she's passive and weak throughout than that's a total failure on their part but that doesn't sound like their plan.
Nah, I read ASoIaF, not watch it. But let me shoot back with this: have you seen the trailer from E3? There's a reason people are calling the new TR basically torture porn. If not, I invite you to watch it once, then replay it with eyes closed. It's a very amusing thing.
Kid Miracleman's rape which triggered him killing all of London. Look, I even winged off a well written *male* rape
That's one. I want ten, DC, because I'm making a point here - the number of rapes/almost rapes in fiction that are *properly* written is incredibly, incredibly small, and I know Liquid Wind isn't literate enough to give me ten good examples.
It doesn't need to be included, but why can't they include it if they want to? It's ok to constantly threaten our video game characters with painful gory and violent deaths, but not rape? Certainly rape isn't worse or is hardly worse than having your head ripped off or being impaled multiple times.
the kind of over the top violence that you're describing that occurs in video games isn't something that happens every day to lots of people, though. Sure, lots of people die in violent conflicts everyday, but nobody gets murdered by demons or eviscerated by alien monsters or anything.
also, why would you want to portray the attempted rape of your video game action hero? what purpose does it serve in the wider context of tomb raider and the story of lara croft? how does being trapped and fighting for her life on an island with a bunch of potential rapists translate into her becoming a globe trotting treasure hunter later in life?
sure, they can put it in their game, but i'm perfectly content and well within my own rights to mock them every step of the way for it.
So I don't understand why the fact that this is something that happens all the time in real life and is completely believable is not fair grounds for a video game. Once again, obviously the character doesn't get raped because you can't put that in a video game and expect to sell it in stores.
Because it takes tact and skill to write something related to rape. Crystal Dynamics couldn't write A Streetcar Named Desire, and they shouldn't try because they'll embarrass themselves.
why am I not suprised that kanzaris thinks in such a rigid black and white way
Why am I not surprised you don't understand basic rules of writing? Like go on. List ten examples of almost-rapes that qualify as good writing. I'll wait, I'm super curious. They must be important to the plot (i. e. a superhero saving a girl from some thugs does not qualify, this must be a big plot point) and not turn the female character into a moeblob. Go.
Whedon-flavored = pop-cultured snarky girl who is much more confident than your average heroine.
The issue is that the weak part undermines the latter part, so not only do you get a character with the serial numbers filed off, it's not even an actually brave character but one that is pretend brave and not backed up by the narrative.
The rape thing sounds silly, but it's at least understandable it could possibly happen in that sort of situation I guess. Having never played a Tomb Raider game I see no issue with her not being a confident and badass survivalist since this is supposed to be an origin story I think.
The issue is that 99% of the time, including an almost rape is bad writing, and do you really trust Crystal Dynamics not to write something crappy here? People are losing their **** because it's incredibly likely to be godawful and a cheap way to get sympathy points for Lara at the cost of decent writing. It's like a western equivalent of making a moeblob.
Edit: I'm halfway serious with this. My name will be Scooter because that is what my owner named me, and it is the name I will INSIST upon being called as a person. This is my character for our next campaign assuming there is one.
So Human Dug? I'm fully in support of this.
And Kan, I thought about it... but does the party really need more OA's/ridiculous stuff? I'm not sure that we do. >_>
It's never bad to prepare for fights like the one with the Elder Brain, where half of our toolkit got nerfed from under us. Either that power or Shield Crack are both great for when we have to improvise against a very strong enemy.
And here's Cairn. Not sure how feasible it would be to actually play a Chaotic Evil character in this campaign (especially with Lloyd in the group) but it was fun making her, at least!
I'd like to see her in action, but knowing Val, one of three things would happen. 1. Kidnapping, brainwashing, justice friends 2. "Eh, she's still less evil than Amy, welcome aboard" 3. Being cool with her as long as she directs her murder spree on enemies
Would you believe me that the first thing I thought of when I saw Chaotic Evil was 'Stab Watchman Mode: ENGAGED!'?
EDIT: Oh yeah! I forgot to ask, Tiro, have you considered picking up Forced Opportunity on Quentyn? You mentioned it a while back and it's a ridiculous power for this party.
No, I wasn't saying that. It's obviously a remix, but it's the exact same melody. Just saying that wanting a "full version" of it is the same as wanting a "full version" of any of the other songs that are remixed in Descend.
(From what I can tell, they include Upward Movement, Beatdown, Sburban Jungle, Explore, Liquid Negrocity, Octoroon Rangoon, Pumpkin Cravings, Doctor, Endless Climb and Atomyk Ebonpyre)
Reading this after the previous post just makes me smile. I can't help it.
not having a computer for like a year means that the last album I actually listened to was AlterniaBound. so, uhh, anyone wanna give me the highlights?
also, i thought that jingle at the end of descend was from a videogame or something. like, secret of mana maybe??
All of them except Sburb and The Wanderers. Song of Skaia isn't actually an Album.
No, all of them except Medium and The Wanderers. Medium requires that you do special work to enjoy it, and it's not Zaireeka enough for it.