It's wild how people will make fun of you for not being a car expert

I'm not sure if cars even existed 150 years ago, humans were obviously not built to know how to drive and maintain cars lol. Imagine how much backlash nerds would get if they openly insulted people for not being computer experts (which they should), but this has become normalized for some reason.

Gran Turismo 4 lyfe

Damn_Underscore posted...

but this has become normalized for some reason.

Because through a lot of the 70's and 80's, it was quite standard to need to know at least basic car maintenance to keep one running, and much of American society essentially required everyone to have a working car to get by thanks to the proliferation of car-centric infrastructure in the 60's. Therefore, not understanding car maintenance to at least some degree (not necessarily the level of a professional mechanic, but at least basic diagnostics and regular maintenance tasks) meant you couldn't function as an adult.

These days, understanding how a car works requires more computer science than mechanical aptitude, and between cars being more generally reliable and the ubiquity of cell phones and tow services, you just don't need to be able to do anything yourself. Even if you're talking something like oil changes, tire changes, or brake pads (all of which are easy enough to learn), doing them yourself pretty much just means saving a couple hundred bucks a year, which isn't really a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. We're only a generation or so removed from the era in which car maintenance was a basic life skill, though, so some of those attitudes have hung on (though they aren't really all that common, so I think you might be exaggerating the significance of this) because people are parroting their parents' attitudes.

It's also probably a factor that car maintenance is a traditionally masculine household task, so you're getting people tying that to masculinity. That can be a bit of a sore spot because, like a lot of traditionally masculine household tasks, that's a role in the household that's pretty easily replaced with money (it's generally much cheaper to pay the occasional handyman to do a minor repair than to pay somebody for child care or to cook every day), so men that have tied their identity to being able to provide that value to their household sometimes get a bit defensive when they see other men doing just fine without it.

I haven't run into this before personally, but I'm not really close to anyone who's really into cars.

Damn_Underscore posted...

I'm not sure if cars even existed 150 years ago,

Almost, 1886 was the first modern car.

Yeah because if you live in America cars are a necessity unless you live in one of the few major cities that it isn't. You don't have to be a car expert(I'm not) but I'm gonna look at you funny if you don't know how to change a tire, oil, or other critical function on one.

Also are you really condemning people for not being Computer Experts in the same sentence or am I reading wrong?

Cruddy_horse posted...

Also are you really condemning people for not being Computer Experts in the same sentence or am I reading wrong?

No, the nerds who did this would and should be receiving the backlash.

Damn_Underscore posted...

It's wild how people will make fun of you for not being a car expert

I've never met a single person in my entire life who gave a shit. Even my father, who literally built cars .

Decades ago I think there was more expectation that people should at least be able to change their own oil, or potentially do minor fixes, but that hasn't be true for years. And even then, it was never really something you'd be openly mocked for not being able to do. But now you can go to Jiffy Lube for tune ups and call roadside assistance whenever something goes wrong, so who cares? Even more so that so many people now don't even own their own cars, and just lease from the dealer (and take the car back to the dealer to be fixed whenever something is wrong with it).

Maybe if you were a teen in the 50s and all of your friends were rebuilding your old junker car into Greased Lightning, you'd get made fun of for not being able to gap a spark plug or replace a distributor cap and rotor. But no one's really given a shit for longer than most people on PotD have been alive.



Damn_Underscore posted...

Imagine how much backlash nerds would get if they openly insulted people for not being computer experts (which they should)

There was definitely a period of time when computer nerds would have the attitude that anyone using a computer should at least have a vague knowledge of how to upgrade the hardware and maybe even code. But that mentality went away years ago as computers became more accessible.

It's arguably a complexity issue. When the necessary specialist knowledge is relatively easy to learn, there can be more of an expectation that people should learn it. But as cars and computers became more complex, there was less and less expectation that people should make the effort.

I had trouble changing a tire the other day, but only because the damn thing was badly stuck on the hub. I finally called AAA because I couldn't get it to budge, but then while I was waiting I got the idea to turn the steering wheel all the way over so I could reach behind and bang on the back of the tire with a dead-blow hammer, which I fortunately carry in my car all the time. That finally popped it loose so I canceled the AAA call and finished changing the tire myself. I probably couldn't have gotten it loose alone if it was the rear wheel.

Before cars had computers in them, you literally had to tune up your car at least twice a year because as the temperature would change, the density of the air would change, and thus the amount of oxygen available to the engine. A tune up would adjust the air-fuel ratio to keep it as close as possible to the stoichiometric point, 14.7:1 for gasoline. Modern cars use sensors to continuously make these adjustments so they nearly always operate at stoich.

Cruddy_horse posted...

change a tire, oil, or other critical function on one.

Are those really critical functions, though? In the decade I've been driving, I've had two flats. In one case, it was a double blowout and a spare wouldn't have helped. In another, it was a slow leak and I was able to keep it pumped up (first with a bike pump, then I went and bought a compressor) until I got it in to be checked out (turned out it was corrosion on the rim, which was an easy fix). Neither case actually required me to change a tire, and even if it had, it wouldn't exactly be hard to find instructions if I needed them (not that I actually have a spare tire, but that's beside the point), and if I don't mind waiting, I can call CAA to either do it for me or tow it to a shop at no additional cost.

I don't not know how to change a tire, in that I'm loosely familiar with the process (loosen the lug nuts, jack it up, remove the nuts, remove the wheel, mount the replacement, tighten, jack down, finish tightening), but it's not a skill I've ever put into practice. It's also not a skill I particularly need to put into practice. It's a skill I could develop just in case I need it, but that possibility is pretty remote and I've got alternatives available. So does it really matter?

Sure, seasonal tire changes are more common, and oil changes get lumped in there as well, but then it's less a question of "if you can't do this on demand, you can't drive safely" (which are what I'd describe as "critical functions") and more "you can pay somebody else to do this if you can't/don't want to." Learning how will save you money, but that's about the extent of it, and even then it's not a huge amount (and having a shop check the vehicle out annually while doing an oil change isn't a bad idea anyway).

Damn_Underscore posted...

not sure if cars even existed 150 years ago

Flintstones

adjl posted...

I don't not know how to change a tire, in that I'm loosely familiar with the process (loosen the lug nuts, jack it up, remove the nuts, remove the wheel, mount the replacement, tighten, jack down, finish tightening), but it's not a skill I've ever put into practice. It's also not a skill I particularly need to put into practice.

I've absolutely changed tires, and given the choice, I would rather get someone else to do it for me every single time. Especially since my insurance company offers free roadside assistance.

Especially as I get older, and the effort it takes to get down on the ground, set up the jack, undo the lugs, etc, is getting harder and harder to endure, and it takes more and more out of me.

I have trouble making the physical effort to crouch over to put air in my tires every winter at this point. It pretty much kills my knees no matter how I do it.

I can take apart and rebuild a car engine. Can you?

Nearly every time I've changed a tire it's been at home, or within walking distance of home and I had a second vehicle available to bring tools, so I was able to use a proper trolley jack and long ass breaker bar instead of having to rely on the puny scissors jack and lousy little lug wrench found in most cars. It's super easy to do if you have the right tools, but I wouldn't want to have to do it with the emergency tools most cars carry. I'd rather call AAA if I'm away from home.

Easy mode:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/4/4b09ae39.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e4019349.jpg

Hard mode:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/efda0f84.jpg

SunWuKung420 posted...

I can take apart and rebuild a car engine. Can you?

I can take it apart

Its become a trend again amongst the Gen Z generation

SunWuKung420 posted...

I can take apart and rebuild a car engine. Can you?

I could probably do it if I were given instructions and enough time. It's really just high-stakes Lego.

It would also depend heavily on the engine. Some engines are designed to be easy to strip down and rebuild, usually if they're expected to be used somewhere remote where ease of repair is critical (like military vehicles). Others very much are not.

Damn_Underscore posted...

humans were obviously not built to know how to drive and maintain cars

This is such a dumb statement.

Humans invented cars.

My last position was more or less a service writer for a mechanic crew. I warned them I had no experience with cars and had never changed my own oil and lacked basic knowledge. They said it was fine and they mostly needed me for my computer skills. Turns out cars aren't that complicated.

However, some mechanics are very smart. I was often impressed by their overall knowledge of so many different things. They're very good at mentally completing puzzles and it makes sense with how diagnostics work generally.

SunWuKung420 posted...

This is such a dumb statement.

Humans invented cars.

He means that it's not "natural" for humans to learn how to operate or fix one. It's a complex skill that must be learned from an expert.

All humans eventually learn certain skills (fine motor skills like walking, standing, understanding gravity, natural reflexes to respond to stimuli, like recognizing a snake)...

If a person is raised in a community, especially as a baby, listening and recognition skills come first. Then the child can eventually produce limited degrees of human speech. Speech continues to develop, but only if the child continues to maintain contact within that community. Reading and writing skills can eventually be developed.

That's assuming the child has a typical experience. Supposing the child were deaf, then the communicative experience could become entirely different, such as through sign language. However, even something like sign language is not completely and inherently natural. It is a skill that must be learned.

There is a degree to which language is natural and to where it is not natural. Some languages are natural. Others are constructed.

Some constructed languages have even become natural languages, if you can imagine that. There's this persistent trait where speakers of some constructed languages, like Esperanto, have begun altering words or rules in an irregular manner (irregular words, conjugations, patterns, et cetera)... There is evidence of a human trait or capacity for language, in which the "natural" human touch of language will even alter artificial or constructed languges.

In American Sign Language, there are several dialectal signs for the same ideas or expressions (two to three different signs for "firefighter," for example).

Soto say what is "natural" or what is "not natural" depends on the definition being used.

Humans did invent cars, yes. But vehicles are not inherently "natural" to humans. Tools are. Vehicles are essentially a complex combination of toolsat its simplest limited components, ignition with a fuel type in combination with wheels and axles. Vehicles are effectively an extremely complex tool developed over several generations of humanity.

Operating a vehicle properly requires complex cognitive capabilities. Fixing one also requires some degree of cognitive and physical effort.

Knowing how to repair a vehicle requires physical strength, tools, and relatively advanced knowledge, more than what it seems. Taking a wheel off of a vehicle may seem like a simple task, but it requires complex understanding, cognition, and physical strength to accomplish the task.

Remove any one of those components, and the task cannot be completed. Ask a three year old to change a tire (lack of strength and likely lack of understanding), and you will see the child fail. Similarly, ask a 95-year-old (who may understand the task, but who may lack physical strength), and such a request could also fail.

It's the same reason why a person cannot drive and send a text message on a cell phone at the same time. Both of these things seem simple in description or appearance, but they are cognitively demanding tasks.

Even something like reading these sentences and paragraphs requires complex cognition. The more a skill is practiced, the easier it is for a human to repeat the skill. But that doesn't reduce how complex the skill is.

All of this to saywhat the other person simply meant was that fixing a flat tire requires someone to teach it to you.

Some people simply haven't learned or haven't been taught.

razzyhealer posted...

He means that it's not "natural" for humans to learn how to operate or fix one. It's a complex skill that must be learned from an expert.

We made cars. They didn't just appear in the world and they aren't that complicated.

Just remember humans invented cars.

I'm so glad Sunny was here to bump the topic with a double post after 7 hours, with the stunning insight of "humans invented cars." That kind of wisdom certainly does not belong halfway down the first page.

Cruddy_horse posted...

You don't have to be a car expert(I'm not) but I'm gonna look at you funny if you don't know how to change a tire, oil, or other critical function on one.

I might look down on someone if they aren't at least willing to troubleshoot and figure out how to change their own tire if absolutely necessary (If they have the proper equipment of course), but I can't say even I'd want to do it myself if I didn't have to. And I really can't imagine needing to know how to change oil when it's much easier and efficient to go to a service station. I've done it once in my life and it's way more effort than it's worth for barely any money saved, AND you need to properly dispose of the used oil yourself.

All other car knowledge I've accumulated has been basic trial and error when circumstance requires. I have a basic knowledge of what "should" be in a car and sort of just look around until it makes sense. Then determine how badly I need to fix it.

adjl posted...

I'm so glad Sunny was here to bump the topic with a double post after 7 hours, with the stunning insight of "humans invented cars." That kind of wisdom certainly does not belong halfway down the first page.

I like how he first posted in this topic to brag and then posted again hours later to reply to something said in the very first post.

Sarcasthma posted...

I like how he first posted in this topic to brag and then posted again hours later to reply to something said in the very first post.

I don't have to respond how you want me to.

Also, humans invented cars. It's perfectly natural to know how they operate and how to fix them.

SunWuKung420 posted...

I don't have to respond how you want me to.

But I said I liked how you posted in this topic.

SunWuKung420 posted...

Also, humans invented cars. It's perfectly natural to know how they operate and how to fix them.

Sure, it's natural. You were still bragging, though.

Sarcasthma posted...

Sure, it's natural. You were still bragging, though.

Yup. I am. My next door neighbor took the time to teach me while he was constantly working on his hot rod. Living an unsheltered childhood was awesome.

SunWuKung420 posted...

Living an unsheltered childhood was awesome.

Are you insinuating that I had a sheltered childhood because I don't know how to fix cars?

Sarcasthma posted...

Are you insinuating that I had a sheltered childhood because I don't know how to fix cars?

Nope. But I did start my technical and mechanical training much younger than you.

#blessed

When I deal with Americans online, they are sometimes shocked to learn that I do not have a car and yet am not dirt poor.

SunWuKung420 posted...

But I did start my technical and mechanical training much younger than you.

I'm more of a liberal arts education kind of guy. I hope that's okay with you.

SunWuKung420 posted...

Also, humans invented cars. It's perfectly natural to know how they operate and how to fix them

You keep saying this like it means anything humans invented is easy to figure out how to maintain and fix. Humans invented nuclear reactors. Humans invented particle colliders. Humans invented a whole bunch of shit that isn't natural to know how to operate and fix.

I admit I don't know much about cars but I also can't drive safely. I've tried with 3 different permits. Just not meant to be.

Demogoblin92 posted...

I admit I don't know much about cars but I also can't drive safely. I've tried with 3 different permits. Just not meant to be.

I blame teachers for that.

I do wonder if there is a familial connection to good driving.

My first driving lesson with my parents was at night, in a Canadian Tire parking lot, in the winter. Dad told me to drive around the lot, then had me go faster and faster until the car spun out on the ice. Then he said good, you got that over with. I then did emergency braking, what that felt like. And after performing a bunch of emergency manoeuvres, I was fine. Passed my test first try, only lost points because I hesitated on a right turn on red. Which I still do, because I don't trust people.

Cruddy_horse posted...

Also are you really condemning people for not being Computer Experts in the same sentence or am I reading wrong?

Computers are used way more than cars, and are way cheaper to replace if you fuck it up

hockey7318 posted...

Humans invented nuclear reactors. Humans invented particle colliders. Humans invented a whole bunch of shit that isn't natural to know how to operate and fix.

Cars are used everyday by millions of humans and if you're operating one you should have at least a basic understanding of it's function.

Equating then to nuclear reactors and particle accelerators is very poor logic.

SunWuKung420 posted...

Also, humans invented cars. It's perfectly natural to know how they operate and how to fix them.

It's not at all natural. You will not learn how a car works without external training from another human (whether direct or indirect). By definition, that is artificial, because it's something a human is doing and that can only occur as a consequence of human action. You yourself have stated as much: You know what you know about cars because your neighbour taught you. It's not knowledge you possess as an innate, natural instinct.

What you can say is that because humans invented cars, it's natural for humans to be capable of learning how a car works. That logic isn't perfect, mostly because only some humans invented cars and those people having that ingenuity does not mean all humans can think like that, but broadly I would agree that the potential is there to learn basic maintenance/repair like changing a tire if one puts in the effort. That still does not mean that somebody has failed at any sort of baseline biological imperative if they don't know it, any more so than if they don't know any other piece of knowledge. You can judge people for not knowing knowledge that they can expect to need and have had the opportunity to learn. Lacking knowledge you don't expect to need and/or haven't had the opportunity to learn, however, is not shameful, and judging people for that just makes you an ass.

SunWuKung420 posted...

Cars are used everyday by millions of humans and if you're operating one you should have at least a basic understanding of it's function.

A "basic understanding of it's [sic] function" is "right pedal makes go, left pedal makes stop, spinny circle makes turn, don't hit things." Broadly, basically understanding something's function just entails understanding what it does and how to make it do the thing. Learning how to solve common problems that interfere with doing the thing is a good idea with lots of practical merit, but it's a step beyond basic understanding and may or may not be worth the effort it takes to practice those skills. Learning how to solve uncommon problems is even less likely to be worth the effort.

The fact of the matter is that modern cars are reliable enough and mechanical services are accessible enough that you really don't need to know much about maintaining/repairing cars to use one to get around. This applies to a lot of things you use every day: computers, toilets, fridges, concrete... You can use a toilet every day without knowing off-hand how to replace a fill valve or flapper. Learning how to do those things when needed is a good idea and not terribly difficult (it mostly boils down to being able to describe problem well enough to successfully google it), but there's very little point in learning before you need the knowledge.

SunWuKung420 posted...

everyday

I really hate to do this, but you should have used 'every day' in that sentence.

SunWuKung420 posted...

it's

SunWuKung420 posted...

then

SinisterSlay posted...

I blame teachers for that.

I do wonder if there is a familial connection to good driving.

My first driving lesson with my parents was at night, in a Canadian Tire parking lot, in the winter. Dad told me to drive around the lot, then had me go faster and faster until the car spun out on the ice. Then he said good, you got that over with. I then did emergency braking, what that felt like. And after performing a bunch of emergency manoeuvres, I was fine. Passed my test first try, only lost points because I hesitated on a right turn on red. Which I still do, because I don't trust people.

When on my first permit I drove a huge 12 passenger van with my 5 siblings snd 2 parents present. It was scary. I once on the way to my Grandparents on Christmas Eve with my family present freaked out and drove that 12 passenger van into their neighbors yard. After that I did not try to get another permit for a while.

how is it we live in a society where we can safely google/youtube many car fixes, but still not feel comfortable to do it ourselves?

Demogoblin92 posted...

When on my first permit I drove a huge 12 passenger van with my 5 siblings snd 2 parents present. It was scary. I once on the way to my Grandparents on Christmas Eve with my family present freaked out and drove that 12 passenger van into their neighbors yard. After that I did not try to get another permit for a while.

Since you are calling it a permit, I am going to guess you are in the UK?
Having recently driven there. Yeah I understand. Scary shit there.

Honestly, my dad was a mechanic, and I used to help him with car stuff + the maintenance of our own cars all the time. That being said, I live in a major city now, and the prospect of doing car maintenance myself just isn't something that makes sense given my current living situation. It's MUCH easier / cheaper to just take the car to the shop twice a year, and it costs me, at most, a couple hundred bucks total. Plus I don't need to buy / keep any of the tools around, or need to worry about stuff like disposing of tires / oil, etc.

Beveren_Rabbit posted...

how is it we live in a society where we can safely google/youtube many car fixes, but still not feel comfortable to do it ourselves?

In a lot of cases, "I can't *thing*" actually means "I don't currently know how to *thing*, but could learn if I needed to." Like if I'm asked if I know how to change a tire, "no" is an accurate answer, since I don't know important details like where my car's jack points are and I've never actually done it. I could, however, figure it out pretty easily if the need arose, thanks to google/youtube and a decent amount of mechanical intuition.

Perhaps the bigger issue, though, is that cars are complicated. Even if you know how to complete a given maintenance/repair task, there's still reason to be concerned about the potential for causing unrelated issues in ignorance (like not tightening something enough or knocking something out of place and not realizing) or missing deeper issues because you only focused on the problem you knew how to solve and those deeper issues get worse for not having been noticed. I could absolutely do my own oil/tire changes if I wanted to save the money, but by taking my car into a shop, I can tack on a check-up from a more competent mechanic, and doing that once or twice a year is a good way to keep the whole thing running smoothly. I've done things like replace lightbulbs and wiper blades that needed to be done outside of a regular maintenance schedule and don't require digging far enough into the car to offer an opportunity for further inspections, but for regular maintenance, I'm happy to spend a bit extra to get more qualified eyes on the car.

The only time I'll make fun of someone is if they dont know how to change a tire. Other than that, I dont expect anyone to really know anything

SinisterSlay posted...

Since you are calling it a permit, I am going to guess you are in the UK?
Having recently driven there. Yeah I understand. Scary shit there.

No. I am an American. You get a permit when you are learning to drive. You get your license after having a permit a long while.

adjl posted...

In a lot of cases, "I can't *thing*" actually means "I don't currently know how to *thing*, but could learn if I needed to." Like if I'm asked if I know how to change a tire, "no" is an accurate answer, since I don't know important details like where my car's jack points are and I've never actually done it. I could, however, figure it out pretty easily if the need arose, thanks to google/youtube and a decent amount of mechanical intuition.

For a lot of emergency stuff, like changing a tire, you can find instructions in the car's owners manual, including the location of the jack points. I know a lot of people don't, but you really should familiarize yourself with the manual since it covers a lot of important info.

If you have an older car, I recommend finding a factory service manual on eBay. I have had one for every car I've owned, and they cover almost every single screw. They've helped me to do minor repairs like replacing a burned out resistor pack and a failed blower motor in the ventilation system, a seized rear window wiper, and a failing alternator. Just doing one of these myself easily saved the cost of the books.

Newer cars often don't have printed service manuals, but you can still get a Chiltons or Haynes manual that might help fix moderate problems.

Being an American and not knowing cars is a failure. It's a mandatory part of being an American, it's like not knowing how to dress yourself.

Yeah, I've got my manual and I've used it for a few things, like checking which oil to put in when I discovered that the car was dangerously low on it right after I'd bought it, or figuring out which bulb to get to replace a burnt-out headlight. The manual is one of the first places I'd look to help me find jack points if I needed to (though I don't actually have a spare tire, so it's a bit of a moot point). It's also how I learned to jump-start a car, since it outlines all the steps nicely and there was a period where my old car needed a few boosts because its battery stopped holding a charge (it actually got bad enough that I couldn't even shift it into neutral to push it out of the driveway to get a boost, though when the tow truck showed up I learned how to disengage the shift lock and I could replicate that if needed).

That's really why I don't think it's an issue that there's a laundry list of car R&M tasks I don't know off-hand how to do: I know how to learn how to do them if the need arises. Unless the issue is that a giant EMP goes off and wipes out all electronics and also I get a flat tire and need to change it to escape an angry mob of zombies or something, I'm probably fine.

People love to shame people for not knowing things.

Or be all condescending about the subject.

And, of course, take advantage of your ignorance.

Classic gatekeeping and manipulation.

Humans are scum. Didnt you get the memo?

If your car is more than 10 years old, you really need to replace the spare tire. Rubber decays over time, and after 10 years all bets are off. Most spares need 60 pounds pressure in them, and if the tire has weakened, it's probably going to explode on you.

And make sure you check your spare tire pressure regularly. It doesn't do much good to have a spare if it's flat too.

I went to change my roommate's tire the other day after his car had a blowout, and the spare was only 40 pounds. Fortunately I had an air pump with me.