I figured out the Trolley Problem

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Poll of the Day » I figured out the Trolley Problem
this famous meme

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/92e94651.jpg

The answer is Pull the lever halfway. If you are successful the train will be forced to derail and the innocent trapped people will be saved. If pulling the lever halfway doesn't actually do anything (you need to pull it all the way for it to work at all) then you are no worse off than if you didn't touch the lever to begin with
On a hot summer night, would you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?
I bet you say that to all the boys...
The correct answer is to not pull it. If you pull it you are at least partially to blame for the single person's death, if you don't pull it you share none of the blame.
Muscles
Chicago Bears | Chicago Blackhawks | Chicago Bulls | Chicago Cubs | NIU Huskies
The correct answer is not to pull it because although five people will die, theyre all clones of hitler so its okay
I turn 360 degrees and moonwalk away
So I was standing still at a stationary store...
Fortunately that trolley will loop around and kill the people it missed the first time so everything works out in the end
Delicious and vicious, while maliciously nutritious.
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Muscles posted...
The correct answer is to not pull it. If you pull it you are at least partially to blame for the single person's death, if you don't pull it you share none of the blame.

Uncle Ben clutching his chest and crying and throwing up right now.
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SilentSeph posted...
Fortunately that trolley will loop around and kill the people it missed the first time so everything works out in the end

Was going to say, based on that picture 6 people are going to die no matter what you do.



MICHALECOLE posted...
The correct answer is not to pull it because although five people will die, theyre all clones of hitler so its okay

https://www.amazon.com/Trial-Trolley-Dilemmas-Skybound-Happiness/dp/B07X5DV7T9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDFUA9TQUUU
"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family
The correct answer is to finish off whoever the train misses.
You are now blinking and breathing manually.
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Muscles posted...
If you pull it you are at least partially to blame for the single person's death, if you don't pull it you share none of the blame.
Debatable (which is the point), because you could have acted and saved five people's lives. Your inaction is as (partially) responsible for their deaths as your action would make you (partially) responsible for the death of the single person if you did pull the lever.

I personally don't find the trolley problem in its most basic form to be a particularly difficult one, because it's a relatively simple equation: act and one person dies, don't act and five people die. From a cold, dispassionate perspective, the former is eminently preferable to the latter, as it causes the least amount of suffering.

There are much more difficult variants of the trolley problem out there. For instance, what if the one person is a child, and the group of people all have terminal cancer? What if the one person is an innocent civilian, but the five are all murderers? You start getting into discussions on the subjective and comparative values of different lives, where the answer is not nearly so clear-cut.
Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster.
Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
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Muscles posted...
The correct answer is to not pull it. If you pull it you are at least partially to blame for the single person's death, if you don't pull it you share none of the blame.
Inaction doesn't make you not culpable.

Anyway, I'd flip the switch and *try* (and fail) to save the one person. Maximizing harm reduction makes sense if you accept that the premise that the scenario does not allow for alternatives.
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darkknight109 posted...
I personally don't find the trolley problem in its most basic form to be a particularly difficult one, because it's a relatively simple equation: act and one person dies, don't act and five people die. From a cold, dispassionate perspective, the former is eminently preferable to the latter, as it causes the least amount of suffering.

The problem is that your point of view is essentially the Utilitarian perspective, but there are plenty of people who don't necessarily accept the Utilitarian perspective of the world.

So even if the answer is subjectively simple and obvious to you, it isn't objectively or universally correct for everyone.



Gaawa_chan posted...
Inaction doesn't make you not culpable.

Many people would disagree, especially if you can act to save someone with minimal risk to yourself and still choose not to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue
"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family
ParanoidObsessive posted...
So even if the answer is subjectively simple and obvious to you, it isn't objectively or universally correct for everyone.
Never said that it was, hence why I used the "personally" qualifier in my post.

EDIT: Also, for what it's worth, the trolley problem in its original form typically sees ~90% of those polled or tested responding that they would kill the one to save the five. It's not seen as a significant moral dilemma for most people, unless additional details are added in.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Many people would disagree, especially if you can act to save someone with minimal risk to yourself and still choose not to.
I think you misread their post - Gaawa said that inaction doesn't make you not culpable.
Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster.
Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
Gaawa_chan posted...
Inaction doesn't make you not culpable.
Exactly. I've always instinctively used Isaac Asimov's Laws of Robotics for problems like this even before I knew they existed. The Zeroth Law is especially useful to me. That's why the correct answer is to pull the lever. Refusing to pull it because you don't want to directly kill anyone is insane troll logic to me. Just to prove my point, let's increase the number of people in the group. How much becomes too much? Will you still refuse to pull it even if it means killing a hundred people? What about a thousand? A million? A billion? All humans except one?

The only reason I wouldn't pull it is if I somehow find the single person's life more important than the group's. It can be both objective or subjective. Subjective is if the single person is someone I love. Objective is if the group consists of dangerous criminals or terminally ill people, or the single person is doing great things for humanity.
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Gaawa_chan posted...
Inaction doesn't make you not culpable.
If you don't act you are an observer of someone else's atrocity, if you do act you become a participant of the single person's murder
Muscles
Chicago Bears | Chicago Blackhawks | Chicago Bulls | Chicago Cubs | NIU Huskies
Muscles posted...
If you don't act you are an observer of someone else's atrocity, if you do act you become a participant of the single person's murder
If you don't act, you are refusing to save five people whom you had the capability to save. That does not make you "an observer". You may not have directly caused anything, but your deliberate inaction still resulted in their deaths.

That's kind of the issue here. There is no room for "an observer", because you aren't afforded the luxury of not getting involved. Have a look at the picture - your hand is on the lever. You choose whether one person dies or five people do - not making a choice in that scenario is still making a choice.

I'm curious how far your "observer" logic extends, though. How would you answer this dilemma: Let's say you are placed in front of two groups of people, suspended in cages above a pit deep enough to kill them. In front of you is a control panel with two buttons - if you press the button on the left, one cage (containing two people) is pulled from the pit and the people released, while the other cage (containing ten people) is dropped into the pit; if you press the button on the right, the opposite happens - the ten people are saved and the two people are dropped to their death. However, if you do not press either button within ten seconds, both cages are dropped and everyone in them dies.

What would you do and why?
Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster.
Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
in the example above, the best option would be to not pull the lever. the trolly will derail from hitting so many people in a row that the one person at the top will be saved. pulling the lever would kill everyone.
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ConfusedTorchic posted...
in the example above, the best option would be to not pull the lever. the trolly will derail from hitting so many people in a row that the one person at the top will be saved. pulling the lever would kill everyone.
From where they're positioned, it looks like their necks and ankles are what are actually on the track. I doubt the trolley would derail from those alone.

Honestly, depending on speed, you'd probably be better off pulling the lever, because that's a very tight turn it would have to navigate and there's an excellent chance it would tip over trying to take it if it has any significant velocity.
Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster.
Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
https://youtu.be/33VUuu2fb1I?si=h0YEYsRViWgY5X0p
The world may be going to Hell, but I am personally awash with convenience.
You get Sabin to suplex that trolley
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Muscles posted...
If you don't act you are an observer of someone else's atrocity, if you do act you become a participant of the single person's murder
No. Inaction is in and of itself an action that one chooses. In the scenario you choose to either be responsible for 5 deaths or responsible for 1. People who try to weasel out of this are cowards; you are already a participant in the scenario. "I choose not to participate = I could have killed 1 person and saved 5, but I instead killed 5 people and saved 1."

If we apply your attitude to the real world, then the inaction of nations when the Rwandan genocide took place doesn't matter. The inaction of nations during the genocides happening NOW don't matter if that's the case. And that's ridiculous on its face.

Accrovideogames posted...
The only reason I wouldn't pull it is if I somehow find the single person's life more important than the group's. It can be both objective or subjective. Subjective is if the single person is someone I love. Objective is if the group consists of dangerous criminals or terminally ill people, or the single person is doing great things for humanity.
This is unfortunately where it gets muddled. There's lots of ways to complicate this, as the meme has demonstrated over the years, lol.
Hi
Inaction isnt action and the fact that youre trying to argue that it is is ridiculous
"There are many children's books that teach morals, but I don't go around worshipping mother goose." - Dynalo
zhangliao1 posted...
Inaction isnt action and the fact that youre trying to argue that it is is ridiculous
Uh, no. This is actually a very old and well-understood concept.

Those who see action in inaction and inaction in action are truly wise amongst humans. Although performing all kinds of actions, they are masters of all their actions.

That's from the Bhagavad Gita. It's thousands of years old. You're getting tripped up by the "literal" meaning of the words rather than what they mean in practice.

https://moralguillotines.wordpress.com/2018/09/18/why-inaction-is-action/

You're just being a coward if you try to dodge responsibility for a choice by saying "I didn't act."
Hi
zhangliao1 posted...
Inaction isnt action and the fact that youre trying to argue that it is is ridiculous

Inaction is as much a choice as action is. It's a conscious decision with no less potential for significant consequence than action has. If you decide not to act, that decision should be made with intent, recognizing and accepting the consequences having weighed the benefits.

This comes up in medicine a lot: Because the body is constantly trying to heal itself, very often "wait and see what happens" is a viable therapeutic option over shoving more drugs in there, running more tests, or doing surgery. A huge part of learning to be a doctor is learning when to choose inaction over acting more directly, a choice for which the doctor is still entirely responsible because choosing not to act can cause more harm than choosing to act. It's also the central principle behind the concept of triage, in which you ask "if I choose not to act on any of these crises, in which cases will that inaction cause the least overall harm," then using your time to act on the higher-consequence cases.

Quite simply, if you can stop harm from happening, and you choose not to, you bear some responsibility for that harm. Therefore, that choice should be made with intent, weighing the benefits and consequences (including the harm to your mental health of constantly thinking "I can save everyone and I need to always be optimizing my potential to do so") and using that analysis to justify the decision. Pretending you didn't notice the opportunity to intervene is just lying to yourself and anyone else you voice that to.
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Gaawa_chan posted...
No. Inaction is in and of itself an action that one chooses. In the scenario you choose to either be responsible for 5 deaths or responsible for 1. People who try to weasel out of this are cowards; you are already a participant in the scenario. "I choose not to participate = I could have killed 1 person and saved 5, but I instead killed 5 people and saved 1."
Why am I responsible for a madman putting me in this situation?
Muscles
Chicago Bears | Chicago Blackhawks | Chicago Bulls | Chicago Cubs | NIU Huskies
Ok I'll be real the actual answer is "nice meme bro" because this really is just a silly meme. If someone seriously gives you this "challenge" they are just trying to make you squirm. Any answer you give no matter how reasonable will be challenged because that's why they asked you in the first place, that's the reaction they were looking for. It's not even a realistic situation to begin with
On a hot summer night, would you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?
I bet you say that to all the boys...
adjl posted...
Inaction is as much a choice as action is. It's a conscious decision with no less potential for significant consequence than action has. If you decide not to act, that decision should be made with intent, recognizing and accepting the consequences having weighed the benefits.

This comes up in medicine a lot: Because the body is constantly trying to heal itself, very often "wait and see what happens" is a viable therapeutic option over shoving more drugs in there, running more tests, or doing surgery. A huge part of learning to be a doctor is learning when to choose inaction over acting more directly, a choice for which the doctor is still entirely responsible because choosing not to act can cause more harm than choosing to act. It's also the central principle behind the concept of triage, in which you ask "if I choose not to act on any of these crises, in which cases will that inaction cause the least overall harm," then using your time to act on the higher-consequence cases.

Quite simply, if you can stop harm from happening, and you choose not to, you bear some responsibility for that harm. Therefore, that choice should be made with intent, weighing the benefits and consequences (including the harm to your mental health of constantly thinking "I can save everyone and I need to always be optimizing my potential to do so") and using that analysis to justify the decision. Pretending you didn't notice the opportunity to intervene is just lying to yourself and anyone else you voice that to.
To give another example from another professional field, as an engineer I am ethically bound to not pass bad or dangerous workmanship and see that it is addressed wherever I come across it. If, for instance, I am looking at records or happen to see another engineer's work and I notice an error, particularly one that could result in injury or death, I am *legally obligated* to report my findings and ensure that the issue is fixed - typically this is done by first talking to the document owner and/or the person who prepared the work with the error and, if they do not correct the issue, I would then be required to report them to the applicable engineering ethics board, who would conduct an investigation.

This despite the fact that I have no legal ownership of the document in question, nor was I involved in its preparation or review. As soon as I notice the issue, I am considered "involved" and I cannot simply refuse to act, be that out of concern that it might negatively affect my own career prospects or bring disrepute on the company responsible for the error. If I do not act and there is an issue and it can later be shown that I knew about the problem, I could lose my license to practice engineering, face fines/lawsuits, or even potentially be charged with some form of negligent conduct and face prison time.

Muscles posted...
Why am I responsible for a madman putting me in this situation?
No one said you were. You're not responsible for being put in that situation, but most people would consider you responsible for the choice you make once you're there.
Kill 1 man: You are a murderer. Kill 10 men: You are a monster.
Kill 100 men: You are a hero. Kill 10,000 men, you are a conqueror!
As mentioned earlier, inaction not absolving you of of moral guilt is the whole basis of Spider-Man.
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Muscles posted...
Why am I responsible for a madman putting me in this situation?

You're not. You are, however, responsible for the decision you make about how to handle the situation, which in turn means you're responsible for the consequences of that decision.

Quite simply, now that you are in the situation, you have two options:
  1. Pull the switch
  2. Don't pull the switch
Option 1 kills one person. Option 2 kills five people. Either choice you make will kill at least one person. Ultimate responsibility for the deaths of either group lies on the maniac who tied them to the tracks in the first place, but that doesn't change the fact that whichever decision you make kills people. Therefore, all other factors being equal, you have a moral imperative to pull the switch and minimize the number of deaths (at least, operating under the assumption that fewer deaths is morally better than more deaths. If that doesn't align with your personal morality, you have a moral imperative to maximize the number of deaths instead).
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Jokes on you, the lone guy on the top track is the next Hitler, congratulations you just caused millions of people to die
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Poll of the Day » I figured out the Trolley Problem