Current Events > How can we believe in the bible when it comes to man?

(+) Yeah! (+)

As recent as slavery we have on record the bible was manipulated that if "slaves were Good to their masters" they would go to heaven. We have precedent, and something may be more recent than that. Wouldn't surprise me.

If you go further back before we were even born, and it touched our hands, are we supposed to believe kings who would bed their relatives in order to maintain power would not manipulate religious scripture for their own political gain?

Yes, faith is a thing, but for people to ignore this i can't get. Some do believe, and hold to their beliefs in spite of this, but i can't fathom people who refuse to acknowledge this outright, and regard it as blasphemy with threats of going to hell.

GF is very spiritual, and this has come up in discussion, so was curious to hear thoughts here as you guys can offer a nice perspective when we stay civil as us two did.

I don't want to offend people, but would like to hear honest thoughts. Any religious people on CE?

While I find the usual religious arguments oversimplified and usually repetitions of arguments older than electricity, every time I've pushed the argument, it always came down to magic. They don't want to call it magic, though.

Faith is the belief in spite of a lack in evidence or evidence that contradicts what you believe. To believe in the bible you have to have faith, it's as simple as that. Some people just require that their beliefs have actual backing, thus they will shy away from the bible.

Well we know the Bible was manipulated at least once for political reasons without controversy because the removed portions are still available. Basically when they first wrote the bible down a hundred or so years after Jesus died you had conflicting accounts and stories some people didn't believe happened. So they removed those and they entail what are called the apocrypha. Some branches of Christianity include some of the stories that the original Catholic version didn't, but all of them are freely available and aren't hidden or anything. It's weird a lot of people don't know about this, but I also find most Christians haven't even read the actual Bible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha

I'm not religious, but I have to assume the best way to view the Bible would be as metaphors more so than literal.

Nintendo_Porn posted...

GF is very spiritual, and this has come up in discussion, so was curious to hear thoughts here as you guys can offer a nice perspective when we stay civil as us two did.

What does this mean? Is she religious and you aren't? Because if so, you might be in for some bad times. If you are both religious but have strongly different religious views, it still might be bad news bears.

By the phrasing of your topic title, it seems like you are starting with the base assumption that the Bible is trustworthy or authoritative to some degree, but that people might have later corrupted its purity for their own ends. I went on a deep dive years ago studying scholarship surrounding the Bible, and I can't for the life of me imagine why a person who hadn't been indoctrinated in Christianity early in life, or who found the promise of eternal life through Jesus compelling would think the Bible was an authority on anything about life or the supernatural. Even if the Bible were a straightforward and in some sense authoritative historical text (it isn't, and the reasons are so much more numerous than what you listed), a book telling you a man performed miracles 2,000 years ago and will give you eternal life when you die isn't very compelling.

But actually, the Bible doesn't matter much for many modern Christians. A lot of people go to church for the social aspect and have some vague notion that they are good people, that God loves them, and that they'll see their loved ones in a pleasant afterlife. They then graft any other convictions they might have about life or the supernatural onto God and the Bible. More attentive and interested folks will pay attention to the sermon and care about what the pastor is saying, but probably still won't read the Bible, or if they do, it will be in a church study group where they talk their way around odd passages or just ignore them. The next level up would be reading the Bible personally with a devotional of some kind, but those do the same kinds of things a church study group would do.

The highest level is someone who cares enough to want to know what the Bible really says and why. Like, not just what your denomination says, but how the Bible got made, what the historical record tells us about the ancient world, etc. Lots of people who go down this rabbit hole become atheists or agnostics.

I happen to be agnostic on the concept of God, and wholly negative about the Bible itself being true.

ellis123 posted...

Faith is the belief in spite of a lack in evidence or evidence that contradicts what you believe. To believe in the bible you have to have faith, it's as simple as that. Some people just require that their beliefs have actual backing, thus they will shy away from the bible.

To believe in something means you believe that it will stand up to scrutiny too IMO. History is full of atrocities from those who didn't question anything.

ssjevot posted...

Well we know the Bible was manipulated at least once for political reasons without controversy because the removed portions are still available. Basically when they first wrote the bible down a hundred or so years after Jesus died you had conflicting accounts and stories some people didn't believe happened. So they removed those and they entail what are called the apocrypha. Some branches of Christianity include some of the stories that the original Catholic version didn't, but all of them are freely available and aren't hidden or anything. It's weird a lot of people don't know about this, but I also find most Christians haven't even read the actual Bible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha

While searching around about this came upon the apocrypha being talked about - cool.

darkmaian23 posted... What does this mean? Is she religious and you aren't? Because if so, you might be in for some bad times. If you are both religious but have strongly different religious views, it still might be bad news bears.

By the phrasing of your topic title, it seems like you are starting with the base assumption that the Bible is trustworthy or authoritative to some degree, but that people might have later corrupted its purity for their own ends. I went on a deep dive years ago studying scholarship surrounding the Bible, and I can't for the life of me imagine why a person who hadn't been indoctrinated in Christianity early in life, or who found the promise of eternal life through Jesus compelling would think the Bible was an authority on anything about life or the supernatural. Even if the Bible were a straightforward and in some sense authoritative historical text (it isn't, and the reasons are so much more numerous than what you listed), a book telling you a man performed miracles 2,000 years ago and will give you eternal life when you die isn't very compelling.

But actually, the Bible doesn't matter much for many modern Christians. A lot of people go to church for the social aspect and have some vague notion that they are good people, that God loves them, and that they'll see their loved ones in a pleasant afterlife. They then graft any other convictions they might have about life or the supernatural onto God and the Bible. More attentive and interested folks will pay attention to the sermon and care about what the pastor is saying, but probably still won't read the Bible, or if they do, it will be in a church study group where they talk their way around odd passages or just ignore them. The next level up would be reading the Bible personally with a devotional of some kind, but those do the same kinds of things a church study group would do.

The highest level is someone who cares enough to want to know what the Bible really says and why. Like, not just what your denomination says, but how the Bible got made, what the historical record tells us about the ancient world, etc. Lots of people who go down this rabbit hole become atheists or agnostics.

I happen to be agnostic on the concept of God, and wholly negative about the Bible itself being true.

This reminds me of why i don't complain about Luke's character in the last jedi. A hermit was staring at jedi propaganda for god knows how long, and it turned them against the teaching .

I am not above religious scoffs in my past, but have found myself kneeling in prayer, and grateful for everything that i've been given/earned in life in spite of myself. Still, question religion thinking for myself in areas. Nice to hear an agnostic speak on this too.

I try to believe in myself before i believe in anything else. God, or anyone cannot help you if you don't take that step forward to change things.

I never had a problem with religion, but people using it to justify hatred/bigotry.

What does this mean? Is she religious and you aren't? Because if so, you might be in for some bad times. If you are both religious but have strongly different religious views, it still might be bad news bears.

Err...We just talk like adults? You're not gonna agree on everything, and that's part of the game. It's bad news if you aren't willing to talk about the hard shit.

At the end of the day, you kinda either believe the word of God or you dont. Faith works diametrically opposed to logic.

ellis123 posted...

Faith is the belief in spite of a lack in evidence or evidence that contradicts what you believe. To believe in the bible you have to have faith, it's as simple as that. Some people just require that their beliefs have actual backing, thus they will shy away from the bible.

Sounds about right. People with a understanding of logic can reason out what's fictional and what's not. I've read a few books on Jesus who put forth the question if it was all hype. He was never divine and that the miracles never happened. You have his "friends" go forth and say we totally saw him do this. Join us. It's evident in the gospels. Let's not forget the Catholic church went and said what is Canon and what's not, few centuries after. It's been translated and mangled to fit "the vision". Once you know that how can you believe everything that's on the written page

If youre referring to the possibility of the bible being edited throughout history, we do have the dead sea scrolls for most of the old testament. And apparently they proved that modern translations of the old testament are accurate.

Hejiru posted...

If youre referring to the possibility of the bible being edited throughout history, we do have the dead sea scrolls for most of the old testament. And apparently they proved that modern translations of the old testament are accurate.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/57c0132a.jpg
The Bible claims that Goliath stood nine feet nine inches tall.
The Dead Sea Scrolls present Goliath as six feet nine inches tall.
The former is a real giant; the latter is shorter than Shaquille ONeal!

@Nintendo_Porn posted...

To believe in something means you believe that it will stand up to scrutiny too IMO. History is full of atrocities from those who didn't question anything.

My suggestion is whatever you're thinking of, don't. Don't question her faith/logic, don't demand proof, and don't tell her about apocrypha or whatever. It's a waste of her time because from her point of view it's all about the bible and her faith. More so if she happens to adhere to five solae, in particular sola fide ("by faith alone").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae

So...don't confront her head-on but do see if you can shift the focus of the conversation from [bible's letters] to [man's actions]. Try this first:

You: "Do you agree that the bible is a letter from God Himself?"
GF: "Yes." (note: zero chance she'll say NO)
You: "Then what about His second letter?"

His second letter I mentioned is this. Notice the bolded parts.

2 Cor 3: 2-3 (NIV)
2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

The meaning is clear there. We are a letter from Christ, written with the Holy Spirit, to be read by everyone. Just like the bible is a letter from God,why not discuss man in their capacity as God's letter?

Unless she somehow refuses to acknowledge that passage, you should be able to bring the focus to [man's actions] without offending her belief in the bible. Just continue from there.

Remember to always treat your gf with respect and kindness here. Faith is a personal matter. Good luck.

The Bible says there is extreme punishment in store for those who would change it scriptures... which would mean absolutely nothing to someone who doesn't believe in God anyway.

Foppe posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/57c0132a.jpg
The Bible claims that Goliath stood nine feet nine inches tall.
The Dead Sea Scrolls present Goliath as six feet nine inches tall.
The former is a real giant; the latter is shorter than Shaquille ONeal!

First thing i thought about was height possibly being translated/measured another way.

thisworld posted...

@

My suggestion is whatever you're thinking of, don't. Don't question her faith/logic, don't demand proof, and don't tell her about apocrypha or whatever. It's a waste of her time because from her point of view it's all about the bible and her faith. More so if she happens to adhere to five solae, in particular sola fide ("by faith alone").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae

So...don't confront her head-on but do see if you can shift the focus of the conversation from [bible's letters] to [man's actions]. Try this first:

His second letter I mentioned is this. Notice the bolded parts.
The meaning is clear there. We are a letter from Christ, written with the Holy Spirit, to be read by everyone. Just like the bible is a letter from God,why not discuss man in their capacity as God's letter?

Unless she somehow refuses to acknowledge that passage, you should be able to bring the focus to [man's actions] without offending her belief in the bible. Just continue from there.

Remember to always treat your gf with respect and kindness here. Faith is a personal matter. Good luck.

Really appreciate that. I already had her read this back, and...

ellis123 posted...

Faith is the belief in spite of a lack in evidence or evidence that contradicts what you believe. To believe in the bible you have to have faith, it's as simple as that. Some people just require that their beliefs have actual backing, thus they will shy away from the bible.

^ She liked that in particular.

The_Korey posted...

The Bible says there is extreme punishment in store for those who would change it scriptures... which would mean absolutely nothing to someone who doesn't believe in God anyway.

Was it described?

ellis123 posted...

Faith is the belief in spite of a lack in evidence or evidence that contradicts what you believe. To believe in the bible you have to have faith, it's as simple as that. Some people just require that their beliefs have actual backing, thus they will shy away from the bible.

This 100%

The search for hard logic and literal truth in religious text is a quest to be an atheist.

I am not a super religious person but my faith is based on an understanding that all religious text were written by man and as such is inherently fallible and prone to biases, that if parts of it feel wrong then it is okay to assume it is wrong.

If we take the Bible literally then we can kill people for eating pork and sell children into slavery.

Nintendo_Porn posted...

Was it described?

Don't remember. Probably not.